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RPG limits?

Chippy

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
6,241
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
They should make the Ranger class lite (with respect to the rules) in every CRPG as it's always a shit class that plays second fiddle to every other. Let me teach my bear to trip, let me teach my wolf to hide, let me move without penalty in storms on favoured terrain, if nothing else - let my ranger whip his dick out and piss on the enemy. It's not like they were ever good for anyhting else.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,851
Crawl replaced all its generic elves and shit with weird races and everyone just bitches about it. Nu dnd is the same, it's all warforged and kenku and dragon people and people just bitch about furries and snowflakes.
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
Patron
Bethestard
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
21,144
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Most video games have only one race that has been in virtually every genre of fiction since the beginning of time (humans), people bitching about elves and dwarves have zero perspective. New races, and especially genuinely original and unique ones are nice, but I'm happy when a dev just nails traditional ones.

Warlords setting remains my favorite fantasy setting of all time, and the heavy stereotyping adds greatly to it.

If anything the genre suffers whenever some retard thinks he can do traditional fantasy better than the father of the fantasy genre, Tolkien Steve Fawkner.

Compared to "original" retarded shit with oppressed faggot elves like Witcher and Dragon Age. Fuck you retards and your "originality".
 

Skdursh

Savant
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
734
Location
Slavlandia
I still think the best RPG ever made would be one that combines Dark Souls combat and movement, the lore and magic of 2nd edition DnD, the dialog system of Morrowind, sprinkle in a little bit of Kingdom Come Deliverance's reactive quest flavor (and general environmental beauty) and give me a huge open world and you've got something I could basically play forever. I'm not sick of medieval fantasy tropes yet personally, but that's mainly because I'm still waiting for an RPG that does it completely right.

While it's not my dream RPG, I'm really hoping that Cyberpunk 2077 pulls off something close. It essentially looks like a Bethesda Fallout game in the pre-apocalypse made by a company that isn't shit and at least on the surface actually respects the players and seemingly understands what "choice" means.
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,737
Location
Perched on a tree
Warlords setting remains my favorite fantasy setting of all time, and the heavy stereotyping adds greatly to it.

Well, i enjoyed playing Warlords but i'm not sure the settings was that memorable.

My favorite settings are PST, Dark Sun and Fallout but some other games with RPG elements also did very well like UFO, Fantasy General (bestiary) and Lords of Magic (quite the unusual units).

Overall, i agree and disagree with everything that had been said, the only thing that kills creativity is the lack of it, everything a creative dev come out with works out, eventually, even if he uses a "generic" settings.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,704
Location
Ingrija
Nothing wrong with Gygaxian dungeons, nothing wrong with elves and dwarves, nothing wrong with filler sidequests. If you don't like RPGs being RPGs, go play Pathologic or some other muh arthouse crap.

That said, developers do need to keep it in mind that a dungeon is something that people live in, and I doubt these people like solving a crossword puzzle everytime they come back home after a night of raiding, razing and raping. Have some sense.
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
5,737
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Perched on a tree
That said, developers do need to keep it in mind that a dungeon is something that people live in, and I doubt these people like solving a crossword puzzle everytime they come back home after a night of raiding, razing and raping. Have some sense.

Well, i'm not a big fan of puzzles except when they're very good and/or logic like in MM3 or even River of time, still, naming the latter, a dungeon could just be an old temple where nobody lives and offer various trials like the "amazon" temple in RoT, really enjoyed it.

Also, it could be an abandoned "you name it" taken over by monsters, bandits or whatever and they don't have access to every part of the dungeon because of the puzzles.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,851
Crawl replaced all its generic elves and shit with weird races and everyone just bitches about it. Nu dnd is the same, it's all warforged and kenku and dragon people and people just bitch about furries and snowflakes.

Yeah because that's not creative that's just dumb.
:roll:

So you want fantasy creatures that are just like humans, but neither shorter (halflings and dwarves) or taller (elves and orcs) and have no distinctive traits at all, and that'll be creative?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,360
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Crawl replaced all its generic elves and shit with weird races and everyone just bitches about it. Nu dnd is the same, it's all warforged and kenku and dragon people and people just bitch about furries and snowflakes.

Yeah because that's not creative that's just dumb.
:roll:

So you want fantasy creatures that are just like humans, but neither shorter (halflings and dwarves) or taller (elves and orcs) and have no distinctive traits at all, and that'll be creative?

No, give me more thri-kreen and other weird fantasy races, not just tall humans (elves), short humans (dwarves), furry humans (khajiit and their ilk), scaly humans (argonians, dragon people, etc).
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,733
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
That said, developers do need to keep it in mind that a dungeon is something that people live in, and I doubt these people like solving a crossword puzzle everytime they come back home after a night of raiding, razing and raping. Have some sense.

Or disable traps everytime they have to go to the kitchen. You find your buddy impaled on the wall and you shout "ADVENTURERS!" but then you realize he just forgot to walk in a zig zag pattern on the black tiles when he woke up with the munchies in the middle of the night.

The problem is designing a place that is both interesting/dangerous looking but also convenient enough to be used as a home/hideout.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
9,435
Location
where east is west
Crawl replaced all its generic elves and shit with weird races and everyone just bitches about it. Nu dnd is the same, it's all warforged and kenku and dragon people and people just bitch about furries and snowflakes.

Yeah because that's not creative that's just dumb.
:roll:

So you want fantasy creatures that are just like humans, but neither shorter (halflings and dwarves) or taller (elves and orcs) and have no distinctive traits at all, and that'll be creative?

No, give me more thri-kreen and other weird fantasy races, not just tall humans (elves), short humans (dwarves), furry humans (khajiit and their ilk), scaly humans (argonians, dragon people, etc).

I feel more needs to be done with such races if used, and no, not just giving them different non-stereotypical accents like DA's Dwarves.

Sadly TES' lore laid some of that ground work, but we never saw much beyond the Dunmer in Morrowind. The Bosmer come to mind and their roving groups that eat other races caught in their own province, but we don't see that, not even a well justified hatred and suspicion of them nor quests in games running into Bosmer practicing it on the downlow elsewhere.
 

Funposter

Arcane
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
1,818
Location
Australia
There's nothing unrealistic about buildings being designed like that. :M

>K. went over to the stairway to get to the room where the hearing was to take place, but then stood still again as besides these steps he could see three other stairway entrances, and there also seemed to be a small passageway at the end of the yard leading into a second yard. It irritated him that he had not been given more precise directions to the room, it meant they were either being especially neglectful with him or especially indifferent, and he decided to make that clear to them very loudly and very unambiguously. In the end he decided to climb up the stairs, his thoughts playing on something that he remembered the policeman, Willem, saying to him; that the court is attracted by the guilt, from which it followed that the courtroom must be on the stairway that K. selected by chance.

>As he went up he disturbed a large group of children playing on the stairs who looked at him as he stepped through their rows. "Next time I come here," he said to himself, "I must either bring sweets with me to make them like me or a stick to hit them with." Just before he reached the first landing he even had to wait a little while until a ball had finished its movement, two small lads with sly faces like grown-up scoundrels held him by his trouser-legs until it had; if he were to shake them off he would have to hurt them, and he was afraid of what noise they would make by shouting.

>On the first floor, his search began for real. He still felt unable to ask for the investigating committee, and so he invented a joiner called Lanz - that name occurred to him because the captain, Mrs. Grubach's nephew, was called Lanz - so that he could ask at every flat whether Lanz the joiner lived there and thus obtain a chance to look into the rooms. It turned out, though, that that was mostly possible without further ado, as almost all the doors were left open and the children ran in and out. Most of them were small, one-windowed rooms where they also did the cooking. Many women held babies in one arm and worked at the stove with the other. Half grown girls, who seemed to be dressed in just their pinafores worked hardest running to and fro. In every room, the beds were still in use by people who were ill, or still asleep, or people stretched out on them in their clothes. K. knocked at the flats where the doors were closed and asked whether Lanz the joiner lived there. It was usually a woman who opened the door, heard the enquiry and turned to somebody in the room who would raise himself from the bed. "The gentleman's asking if a joiner called Lanz, lives here." "A joiner, called Lanz?" he would ask from the bed." "That's right," K. would say, although it was clear that the investigating committee was not to be found there, and so his task was at an end. There were many who thought it must be very important for K. to find Lanz the joiner and thought long about it, naming a joiner who was not called Lanz or giving a name that had some vague similarity with Lanz, or they asked neighbours or accompanied K. to a door a long way away where they thought someone of that sort might live in the back part of the building or where someone would be who could advise K. better than they could themselves. K. eventually had to give up asking if he did not want to be led all round from floor to floor in this way. He regretted his initial plan, which had at first seemed so practical to him. As he reached the fifth floor, he decided to give up the search, took his leave of a friendly, young worker who wanted to lead him on still further and went down the stairs. But then the thought of how much time he was wasting made him cross, he went back again and knocked at the first door on the fifth floor. The first thing he saw in the small room was a large clock on the wall which already showed ten o'clock. "Is there a joiner called Lanz who lives here?" he asked. "Pardon?" said a young woman with black, shining eyes who was, at that moment, washing children's underclothes in a bucket. She pointed her wet hand towards the open door of the adjoining room.

>K. thought he had stepped into a meeting. A medium sized, two windowed room was filled with the most diverse crowd of people - nobody paid any attention to the person who had just entered. Close under its ceiling it was surrounded by a gallery which was also fully occupied and where the people could only stand bent down with their heads and their backs touching the ceiling. K., who found the air too stuffy, stepped out again and said to the young woman, who had probably misunderstood what he had said, "I asked for a joiner, someone by the name of Lanz." "Yes," said the woman, "please go on in." K. would probably not have followed her if the woman had not gone up to him, taken hold of the door handle and said, "I'll have to close the door after you, no-one else will be allowed in." "Very sensible," said K., "but it's too full already." But then he went back in anyway. He passed through between two men who were talking beside the door - one of them held both hands far out in front of himself making the movements of counting out money, the other looked him closely in the eyes - and someone took him by the hand. It was a small, red-faced youth. "Come in, come in," he said. K. let himself be led by him, and it turned out that there was - surprisingly in a densely packed crowd of people moving to and fro - a narrow passage which may have been the division between two factions; this idea was reinforced by the fact that in the first few rows to the left and the right of him there was hardly any face looking in his direction, he saw nothing but the backs of people directing their speech and their movements only towards members of their own side. Most of them were dressed in black, in old, long, formal frock coats that hung down loosely around them. These clothes were the only thing that puzzled K., as he would otherwise have taken the whole assembly for a local political meeting.

>At the other end of the hall where K. had been led there was a little table set at an angle on a very low podium which was as overcrowded as everywhere else, and behind the table, near the edge of the podium, sat a small, fat, wheezing man who was talking with someone behind him. This second man was standing with his legs crossed and his elbows on the backrest of the chair, provoking much laughter. From time to time he threw his arm in the air as if doing a caricature of someone. The youth who was leading K. had some difficulty in reporting to the man. He had already tried twice to tell him something, standing on tip- toe, but without getting the man's attention as he sat there above him. It was only when one of the people up on the podium drew his attention to the youth that the man turned to him and leant down to hear what it was he quietly said. Then he pulled out his watch and quickly looked over at K. "You should have been here one hour and five minutes ago," he said.
 

Jamma

Novice
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
30
Poor AI - Despite advancement in AI there's not a single RPG that uses them, although it doesn't take very long to set up a generic q-learning algorithm to play most turn based RPGs.

Too much reliance on combat - Both designers and audience see CRPGs with no combat as non-RPGs, so they don't buy or make them. CRPGs can have plenty of alternative conflict resolution mechanics, but no one is looking for them.

Generic CRPGs - as a result of the former, CRPGs revolve around combat. This leads them down a trodden path, filled with elves and space elves. It's boring.

Shit combat - remove all braindead combat meant for monkeys. Many jrpgs appeal to me in the general sense, but playing them is a chore since they were released on consoles, so I can't mod out the combat. This is a limit because it's entrenched in the entire industry.

Dialogue trees - seems like after the early 2000's the industry decided to adopt dialogue trees as the only viable way of talking to NPCs, probably due to the costs of voice acting. It's not a bad system, but there are many fun alternatives and seeing it in every game and every conversation is kinda sad. RPGs can be better than that.

Two more that aren't actually limits, but poor habits that limit game design:

Poor loot - I don't like playing inventory manager. Most games can automate it since they offer items that increase character DPS and lower enemy DPS. Automate it, or have loot be rare and interesting. Some games do solve it - but they are always super indie.

Clear separation of flavor and game mechanics - flavor text is colored white. Mechanics of the game are colored red. Now the player can safely skip the poorly written plot and still enjoy the game. If you can, add a situational manual like KoTC or Gungir. Gungir is perfect in that regard.
 
Self-Ejected

c2007

Self-Ejected
Joined
May 24, 2017
Messages
1,091
Location
404
Stopped reading at "Tolkienesque" races.

Your INT may be high, but you just failed a massive WIS check.
 

hexer

Guest
Stopped reading at "Tolkienesque" races.

Your INT may be high, but you just failed a massive WIS check.

You got annoyed because I didn't acknowledge their folklore roots or because you still think they're interesting enough fantasy races?
 

Tavernking

Don't believe his lies
Developer
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
1,264
Location
Australia
Let's see if some generally accepted design staples limit the creativity of RPGs.

2. Elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, trolls

I cannot play a fantasy game with Tolkienesque races anymore unless the games themselves are based on Middle-earth.
I've had enough of their endless iterations for the rest of my life.

a thousand times yes, i'm so fucking sick of this shit

What if it is a game about Celtic-Germanic mythology, which also uses Elves, dwarves, goblins and trolls?
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,944
Location
Wisconsin
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
1. Gygaxian dungeons

The idea of dungeons being detached from the main compound (castle, etc.) and placed in the middle of nowhere without a backstory always baffled me.
DnD is filled with such "logic" - dungeons don't need an explanation, they need monsters.
DnD is filled(!) with such dungeons. Name one.
 

hexer

Guest
1. Gygaxian dungeons

The idea of dungeons being detached from the main compound (castle, etc.) and placed in the middle of nowhere without a backstory always baffled me.
DnD is filled with such "logic" - dungeons don't need an explanation, they need monsters.
DnD is filled(!) with such dungeons. Name one.

Why one when they all are the same?
Literally just rooms filled with random monsters and traps.
Who cares how and why the gargantuan ooze got in a room next to 8 wraiths when the loot is good?

I don't know if you ever visited a RL European dungeon but I don't get any of those spelunking and horror vibes in CRPGs.
What I do get is romanticised "monster zoo" vibes with explanation efforts on the same level as a pizza order phonecall.

But I do know that's exactly what the majority of Western audience wants because they've been indoctrinated by decades of such design.
It's a sad day when you realize most CRPG fantasy is constrained to a simplistic formula.
Imagination cannot be constrained.
Sadly, I believe it will stay constrained like that for some time to come for most Western developers.
We've got an entire generation that grew up on Bethesda's games who carried over pros and cons of DnD design principles.



As a developer, I'm not interested in any of that.
Guess what, in my game the first dungeon can only be traversed by staying crouched all the time with little space for melee fighting.
You can get up but there's a high chance something living on the ceiling might grab you.
You can fight it off, you can even surrender and see what will happen.
No game over, let's keep things different.
There are also a few other solutions for this situation depending on your character build but you actually have to think, something considered a decline in most modern games.
Well, not on my watch!
While I'm here, I'll keep learning and working hard in order to make CRPGs that offer something different!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,944
Location
Wisconsin
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
1. Gygaxian dungeons

The idea of dungeons being detached from the main compound (castle, etc.) and placed in the middle of nowhere without a backstory always baffled me.
DnD is filled with such "logic" - dungeons don't need an explanation, they need monsters.
DnD is filled(!) with such dungeons. Name one.
Equates D&D to Bethesda or something
Come on, fucker! Name a D&D dungeon that has no back story. You are going to piss on Gary Gygax and Western Audiences, well, name the dungeon he created or the dungeon in D&D that has no backstory? Jesus, read a dungeon module if you want to understand how Gary Gygax created dungeons - he explains why the dungeon is there, why what is in what room, the interrelationships, and all that. Even the Tomb of Horrors, the biggest murder spree ever unleashed, explained each room, the backstory, and how it all came about.

This isn't a "Gygaxian" problem. It's shitty Bethesda dungeons just being out there. Don't piss on Gary Gygax's grave to make a point.
 

Molina

Savant
Joined
Apr 27, 2018
Messages
363
Dialogue trees - seems like after the early 2000's the industry decided to adopt dialogue trees as the only viable way of talking to NPCs, probably due to the costs of voice acting. It's not a bad system, but there are many fun alternatives and seeing it in every game and every conversation is kinda sad. RPGs can be better than that.
.
Which one ? The wiki-style in morrowind ?
 

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