Interview Sawyer, Brennecke and Adler on Eternity's megadungeon and other stuff at Rock Paper Shotgun

[Chaotic_Heretic]

And who is going to pledge for custom avatars when this obsidian kickstarter starts?

 

[Lady_Error]

As long as it's a true RPG, I'm happy. Whether it is Western, Steampunk, scifi or The Wire.

 

[Zero Credibility]

The interview also has some new information about the companion Edér (formerly known as "Edair"), who is apparently a rogue and not a fighter as was widely assumed. RPS have another interview coming up tomorrow, this time with Feargus Urquhart, which will be about Obsidian's next Kickstarter(!), so stay tuned.

Any news on this yet? No?



What about now?

Anyway, if we are posting our wishes, I would really like Bloodlines 2 or some other urban fantasy or sci-fi setting.

 

[Juggie]

I did a couple AP missions without triggering any alert, i liked the stealth in that game, even if it ultimately felt like a waste of time.

Stealth in AP? Nigger, please...

Actually I didn't really dislike the game as an overall experience, but the stealth felt really poorly designed. It was about avoiding cones of visions and moving while crouched when near enemies not to generate sound. It was called stealth RPG, but the whole system wasn't really stat or skill based. The skills only unlocked abilities that trivialized the whole chore. You could see the cones of vision of enemies, you had skill that automatically popped you a 2 sec (or something like that) stealth when spotted every 5 minutes or so and you had 2 ROFLSTOMP buttons. Since about midgame you just popped one of the available abilities and breezed through rooms eliminating everything in your path. Yea, dat stealth...

On the other hand JA2 stealth system was really well designed for that particular game. Actually I would rather call it detection system, because it wasn't just about actively trying to sneak. It wasn't perfect and it wasn't all that complex, but it served its purpose quite well. Plus it was stat based and JA2 wasn't even an RPG (well, some people consider it and RPG around here, but w/e).

So how the fuck can a stealth RPG end up with such poorly done stealth system while tactical strategy (or whatever JA2 is) can have such a good one?

Also most of the "stealth" games are just puzzles where the guards, cameras and other detectors have predefined patrol routes etc. The only dynamic gameplay starts when you actually alert someone, but most games expect you to get the fuck out and wait till their alertness level drops.

BTW I kinda liked the detection system in later two of the Czech UFO games. It had several "channels" and each alien/mutant generated different amounts of signal for each channel. Some were easy to detect through plain sight, some through audio channel, some through psi channel or IR vision, etc. There were also two states of detection: one was only general awareness of an object (you didn't know what it is) and the second one was full detection (you could see what it is).

 

[Infinitron]

I did a couple AP missions without triggering any alert, i liked the stealth in that game, even if it ultimately felt like a waste of time.

Stealth in AP? Nigger, please...

Actually I didn't really dislike the game as an overall experience, but the stealth felt really poorly designed. It was about avoiding cones of visions and moving while crouched when near enemies not to generate sound. It was called stealth RPG, but the whole system wasn't really stat or skill based. The skills only unlocked abilities that trivialized the whole chore. You could see the cones of vision of enemies, you had skill that automatically popped you a 2 sec (or something like that) stealth when spotted every 5 minutes or so and you had 2 ROFLSTOMP buttons. Since about midgame you just popped one of the available abilities and breezed through rooms eliminating everything in your path. Yea, dat stealth...

On the other hand JA2 stealth system was really well designed for that particular game. Actually I would rather call it detection system, because it wasn't just about actively trying to sneak. It wasn't perfect and it wasn't all that complex, but it served its purpose quite well. Plus it was stat based and JA2 wasn't even an RPG (well, some people consider it and RPG around here, but w/e).

So how the fuck can a stealth RPG end up with such poorly done stealth system while tactical strategy (or whatever JA2 is) can have such a good one?

Also most of the "stealth" games are just puzzles where the guards, cameras and other detectors have predefined patrol routes etc. The only dynamic gameplay starts when you actually alert someone, but most games expect you to get the fuck out and wait till their alertness level drops.

BTW I kinda liked the detection system in later two of the Czech UFO games. It had several "channels" and each alien/mutant generated different amounts of signal for each channel. Some were easy to detect through plain sight, some through audio channel, some through psi channel or IR vision, etc. There were also two states of detection: one was only general awareness of an object (you didn't know what it is) and the second one was full detection (you could see what it is).

I think Roguey has said that AP wasn't originally supposed to be much of a "Stealth RPG" at all.

Espionage is only == "stealth" in gamer logic, after all.

 

[Grunker]

I did a couple AP missions without triggering any alert, i liked the stealth in that game, even if it ultimately felt like a waste of time.

Stealth in AP? Nigger, please...

Actually I didn't really dislike the game as an overall experience, but the stealth felt really poorly designed. It was about avoiding cones of visions and moving while crouched when near enemies not to generate sound. It was called stealth RPG, but the whole system wasn't really stat or skill based. The skills only unlocked abilities that trivialized the whole chore. You could see the cones of vision of enemies, you had skill that automatically popped you a 2 sec (or something like that) stealth when spotted every 5 minutes or so and you had 2 ROFLSTOMP buttons. Since about midgame you just popped one of the available abilities and breezed through rooms eliminating everything in your path. Yea, dat stealth...

On the other hand JA2 stealth system was really well designed for that particular game. Actually I would rather call it detection system, because it wasn't just about actively trying to sneak. It wasn't perfect and it wasn't all that complex, but it served its purpose quite well. Plus it was stat based and JA2 wasn't even an RPG (well, some people consider it and RPG around here, but w/e).

So how the fuck can a stealth RPG end up with such poorly done stealth system while tactical strategy (or whatever JA2 is) can have such a good one?

Also most of the "stealth" games are just puzzles where the guards, cameras and other detectors have predefined patrol routes etc. The only dynamic gameplay starts when you actually alert someone, but most games expect you to get the fuck out and wait till their alertness level drops.

BTW I kinda liked the detection system in later two of the Czech UFO games. It had several "channels" and each alien/mutant generated different amounts of signal for each channel. Some were easy to detect through plain sight, some through audio channel, some through psi channel or IR vision, etc. There were also two states of detection: one was only general awareness of an object (you didn't know what it is) and the second one was full detection (you could see what it is).

I think Roguey has said that AP wasn't originally supposed to be much of a "Stealth RPG" at all.

Espionage is only == "stealth" in gamer logic, after all.

Well, seeing as they dedicated a whole subset of gameplay to it, that seems like a really shitty excuse...

I hold firm to my belief: modern Deus Ex-likes suck because they all ask the player to make a binary choice between stealth and combat, effectively designing two systems parallel to each other that never interact. Instead of, you know, doing it like Deus Ex; asking you to switch between a multitude of tools for each obstacle.

 

[Grunker]

I had to wipe the HDD 50+ hours into the game and then never went back to it again. Is it worth finishing the game?

I have tried finishing IWD2 4 times, giving up each time. It is the shittiest IE-game, bar none. I fucking love the Infinity Engine, but the tireless drudge of repetitiveness in IWD2 crushes my soul.

 

[Irxy]

Josh finally gets to make his history based RPG set during the civil war. Or whatever it is.

Hope not, american history is boring.

Anything sci-fi would be awesome.
Arcanum 2 is nice too.

 

[skuphundaku]

First of all, I hope Sawyer will have nothing to do with this new Kickstarter. I can compromise as far as he being allowed to work on it on a slave capacity, without any decision powers whatsoever.

Second, I hope the setting is anything BUT Tolkienesque fantasy/medieval. They can go for sci-fi, steampunk, espionage, Cthulhu, nazis, vampires, WW2, western, even fucking time travel (did I mention I consider time travel retarded?), but not that medieval looking crap.

 

[Rake]

First of all, I hope Sawyer will have nothing to do with this new Kickstarter. I can compromise as far as he being allowed to work on it on a slave capacity, without any decision powers whatsoever.

Second, I hope the setting is anything BUT Tolkienesque fantasy/medieval. They can go for sci-fi, steampunk, espionage, Cthulhu, nazis, vampires, WW2, western, even fucking time travel (did I mention I consider time travel retarded?), but not that medieval looking crap.

What about non-Tolkienesque fantasy? Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Eberron, ancient Mesopotamia/Aztec/Egypt -ish?

 

[General Maxson]

I don't think it will be "Tolkienesque fantasy/medieval" since they already kickstarter PE...

 

[Zero Credibility]

I had to wipe the HDD 50+ hours into the game and then never went back to it again. Is it worth finishing the game?

I have tried finishing IWD2 4 times, giving up each time. It is the shittiest IE-game, bar none. I fucking love the Infinity Engine, but the tireless drudge of repetitiveness in IWD2 crushes my soul.

Same here. It is the only IE game I never finished, despite trying at least three times. I finished IWD1 a couple of times despite not being a real fan of pure dungeon crawls, but IWD2 just grows too tedious for me at some point.

 

[Grunker]

First of all, I hope Sawyer will have nothing to do with this new Kickstarter. I can compromise as far as he being allowed to work on it on a slave capacity, without any decision powers whatsoever.

[/Roguey]

 

[Duraframe300]

First of all, I hope Sawyer will have nothing to do with this new Kickstarter. I can compromise as far as he being allowed to work on it on a slave capacity, without any decision powers whatsoever.

Yes. Let Chris *Master of Arcanum and lover of Telltale* Avellone design all the systems. Combat is going to be perfect!



Seriously though, he will probably only work on a reduced capacity on it (like Systems Design) since he's very much busy on Eternity.

 

[Athelas]

I assume he had someone else in mind, since Avellone generally only does narrative and design. Not sure who though.

Anyway, I hope the new project is something more exotic.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I assume he had someone else in mind, since Avellone generally only does narrative and design. Not sure who though.

Anyway, I hope the new project is something more exotic.

Eh, Tim Cain?

 

[cherry blossom]

New Kickstarter game better be TB dammit. They can't have Tim Cain and not benefit from his experience.

I think Roguey has said that AP wasn't originally supposed to be much of a "Stealth RPG" at all.

I don't know about Roguey but that is true. Stealth was a late addition to the game. I still remember the gameplay videos a few months prior to release, showing the new stealth system first time with blind and braindead AI and silly the assorted player skills.

Espionage is only == "stealth" in gamer logic, after all.

I don't know which gamer's logic you are using but that is stupid. Espionage is a concept deeply embedded in popular culture. It's not exactly a scientific term with a surgically cut definition. When you say espionage, it encompasses certain qualities that has come to be accepted as staples. And stealth is an inherent part of it though not the only one. AP just happens to be a game almost completely devoid of any espionage. Obsidian, making a popamole console corridor shooter and calling it an espionage; certainly one of their trademark thematic twists?

The only reason I focused on stealth alone In this case was because of Sawyer's remark about his concept of a "stealth wizard": a wizard who surprise-fireballs enemies.

 

[skuphundaku]

First of all, I hope Sawyer will have nothing to do with this new Kickstarter. I can compromise as far as he being allowed to work on it on a slave capacity, without any decision powers whatsoever.

Second, I hope the setting is anything BUT Tolkienesque fantasy/medieval. They can go for sci-fi, steampunk, espionage, Cthulhu, nazis, vampires, WW2, western, even fucking time travel (did I mention I consider time travel retarded?), but not that medieval looking crap.

What about non-Tolkienesque fantasy? Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Eberron, ancient Mesopotamia/Aztec/Egypt -ish?

As long as it's non-Tolkienesque, it's OK with me. After all, I did have Cthulhu and vampires on my list, and these are clearly fantasy settings.

 

[Roguey]

Well, seeing as they dedicated a whole subset of gameplay to it, that seems like a really shitty excuse...

Because Sega forced them to in 2008, after all the levels had already been blocked out.

AP just happens to be a game almost completely devoid of any espionage. Obsidian, making a popamole console corridor shooter and calling it an espionage; certainly one of their trademark thematic twists?

It was a James Bond/Jason Bourne/Jack Bauer game and none of those characters are renowned for sneaking.

 

[Jarpie]

Fuck vampires. Isometric hard scifi or steampunk wild west would be what I prefer.

 

[skuphundaku]

First of all, I hope Sawyer will have nothing to do with this new Kickstarter. I can compromise as far as he being allowed to work on it on a slave capacity, without any decision powers whatsoever.

Yes. Let Chris *Master of Arcanum and lover of Telltale* Avellone design all the systems. Combat is going to be perfect!



Seriously though, he will probably only work on a reduced capacity on it (like Systems Design) since he's very much busy on Eternity.

Let's put it like this: I prefer P:T to ToEE - P:T being all setting and little system while ToEE being the complete opposite of that. And, yeah, ZagorTeNej is right, Tim Cain could do it. After all, he was doing it when Sawyer was still just an IT monkey.

 

[cherry blossom]

AP just happens to be a game almost completely devoid of any espionage. Obsidian, making a popamole console corridor shooter and calling it an espionage; certainly one of their trademark thematic twists?

It was a James Bond/Jason Bourne/Jack Bauer game and none of those characters are renowned for sneaking.

"THE Espionage RPG"

LOL

The sad thing with what you say is that the game doesn't even do most of the things Bond/Bauer/Bourne are renowned for.

Bond is an accomplished socialite who goes into a lot of different social environments under different handles and pretexts and does a lot of socializing, data collection, exploration and travelling. And uses new cutting edge exciting gadgets. He often has social but potentially lethal encounters eg. dueling in a party, a game of poker, brawling, even a laser game, all done in order to open up his adversaries and to collect information, not wage all-out warfare. Total run-time of violence in Bond films (discounting anything made after 2000s which I haven't seen and which ultimately are irrelevant) is rather short compared to non-combat.

Bauer actually does a good deal of stealth. In fact, easily about half the time-run of all seasons is sneaking around, exploring, collecting information and torturing people. Combat is often a very short affair as Bauer is a quick and deadly shot and is tactically cunning and almost always prepared.

Bourne is always on the run, either stalking people or trying to evade his stalkers. Total run-time wise, these activities are second only to close quarters melee combat.

So AP is total failure on that end.

What AP draws from 3Bs instead is the most cosmetic aspects. Smooth talk like Bond. Dirty talk like Bauer. Or skip the talk like Bourne. The rest is popamole console corridor shooter without any discerning elements to distinguish it from any other mediocre console shovelware.

 

[skuphundaku]

VotS, stop bashing on AP or I'll take you off the Bro list.

 

[Grunker]

bashing ap is about the only thing vots does that's justified

 

[skuphundaku]

Grunker, if it weren't for your appreciation of GURPS...