Interview Sawyer, Brennecke and Adler on Eternity's megadungeon and other stuff at Rock Paper Shotgun

[cherry blossom]

edit:

-deleted sarcastic post about putting grenades into pockets of enemies in Fallout and the perceived ridiculousness of complaining about stealth in AP which all about combat -emphasis originally Infinitron's-

And what is the problem with that? It fits the semi-blown-out comic-book realism of the game. Would it be a better game if you couldn't do that? By the way, you can do so in JA2 as well, only it is harder to pull off.

Anyway, that AP is all about combat is one of the problems. A game called espionage RPG, without any espionage. But the problem goes deeper than that. Remember that Alien Crucible was called by Obsidian "an RPG about stealth and survival " and their major examples with regard to "stealth and survival" was setting sentry guns and blasting aliens with remote bombs.

Well hello, I've been making an RPG about stealth and survival as well. I call it Northrop Chronicles. Here is a screenshot of stealth and survival in action:

 

[Lhynn]

I did a couple AP missions without triggering any alert, i liked the stealth in that game, even if it ultimately felt like a waste of time.

 

[Infinitron]

Your problem, cherry blossom, is that instead of just asking directly for less gamey and combat-centric, more holistic and simulationist games, you're going about in an irrelevant, round-about way by criticizing "stealth systems". Missing the forest for the trees.

 

[tuluse]

I think it's a crazy world we live in where one would say PE is more of a combat game than JA2.

a stronger argument would be that PE is being made on a low budget, and a separate stealth mechanic would be outside of it's scope

 

[cherry blossom]

Your problem, cherry blossom, is that instead of just asking directly for less gamey and combat-centric, more holistic and simulationist games, you're going about in an irrelevant, round-about way by criticizing "stealth systems". Missing the forest for the trees.

I don't really have a problem but what you just wrote doesn't make any sense.

Speaking about being "less combat centric"; practically Skyrim is all about combat but stealth is tight and you can do a whole bunch with it that are capable of serving purposes other than combat.

Though I hate their ugly engine and their dumbed down systems, I appreciate Bethesda for FNV. In an alternate universe where Bethesda wasn't interested in Fallout and Obsidian acquired licensing rights to Fallout, there is a series of utterly mediocre Fallout RPGs made by Obsidian with shitty systems that fail to come together in any sense.

 

[Infinitron]

Speaking about being "less combat centric"; practically Skyrim is all about combat

Not really. Bethesda makes immersive world exploration games with a full spectrum of simulationist or simulationst-lite mechanics, not abstract tactical isometric RPGs.

In an alternate universe where Bethesda wasn't interested in Fallout and Obsidian acquired licensing rights to Fallout, there is a series of utterly mediocre Fallout RPGs made by Obsidian with shitty systems that fail to come together in any sense.

Your lack of faith in the heirs of Black Isle is noted.

 

[Servo]

For comparison, this is how the 'Citizen Kane of gaming' implemented stealth (not shown is the skill that lets you see enemies through walls):

Are people really calling it that?

I'm afraid for our children.

 

[cherry blossom]

I think it's a crazy world we live in where one would say PE is more of a combat game than JA2.

a stronger argument would be that PE is being made on a low budget, and a separate stealth mechanic would be outside of it's scope

It is not a matter of budget for Obsidian. We saw that with past licensed titles. They just lack the inspiration to develop a good and flexible system where stealth could be put to good use by designers. And the only game they developed which had a good stealth experience borrowed Bethesda's framework for FO3.

At any rate, I know what to expect from PE. I will not be disappointed. I'm only saying that stealth in PE will not be a fulfilling experience.

 

[cherry blossom]

Your lack of faith in the heirs of Black Isle is noted.

Hey, NWN2 speaks for itself as a game coming from the same tradition. And we already know that Feargus wanted to make a Dragon Age clone with Baldur's Gate 3. Take some time to contemplate the horrors that have been evaded. Likewise with Alien Crucible - Alpha Popamole with boring teammates in SPAAAAACE! Hadley's Hope.

 

[Volourn]

"That is a fucking 85-plus-hour game. Easily."


HAHAHA! Is he on fukkin' drugz?

 

[Infinitron]

Hey, NWN2 speaks for itself as a game coming from the same tradition.

This guy's tradition, you mean?

Look, what you're saying about stealth, could easily be said about any other random game mechanic. How about JUMPING? Why don't Obsidian's games implement complex and holistic jumping systems in their games? I guess they fundamentally misunderstand jumping!

It's a red herring.

If you want "full spectrum stealth", then ask for the types of games that tend to have that. Don't ask for it in isolation from everything else. You sound like a retard when you do that.

 

[tuluse]

Every Tim Cain game has had full spectrum stealth


Just uhh.. varying levels of badness.

 

[cherry blossom]

Hey, NWN2 speaks for itself as a game coming from the same tradition.

This guy's tradition, you mean?

Irrelevant but okay, let's inspect his credentials with regard to stealth in main games:

(Bioware) Senior Designer on Dragon Age: no stealth in the game, which was a good call. There was no need for it and it would drag the game down.
(Bioware) Senior Designer on Dragon Age II: haven't played it but I bet there is no stealth in it either and that the game is better for it.
(Obsidian) Was a designer on Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords: IE games standard. Only useful for scouting and backstabbing ie. pretty much useless.

So what does that say now?

Look, what you're saying about stealth, could easily be said about any other random game mechanic. How about JUMPING? Why don't Obsidian's games implement complex and holistic jumping systems in their games? I guess they fundamentally misunderstand jumping!

It's a red herring.

If you want "full spectrum stealth", then ask for the types of games that tend to have that. Don't ask for it in isolation from everything else. You sound like a retard when you do that.

Being a straight action game, Obsidian didn't bother with any stealth in Dungeon Siege 3. Result = solid game, if a bit boring. That is the closest valid example that you could draw a parallel to without being laughable.

IF Obsidian implemented jumping and it ended up being shit, then that would be a valid example. The funny thing is that the only Obsidian game with any jumping at all is FNV which, again, operates on Bethesda's framework.

I don't know what you mean by a "full spectrum stealth", though.

Let's take Commandos series for stylistic similarity which you seem to care. Commandos series are tactical isometric RT games about killing lots of Nazi soldiers. And the stealth is good. Systems for utilizing stealth are thought out, have a good feedback mechanism and enable a wide range of tactical options. And I would be very happy if PE provided at least that much but it is obvious it won't.

 

[Infinitron]

(Bioware) Senior Designer on Dragon Age: no stealth in the game, which was a good call. There was no need for it and it would drag the game down.

Wut http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Stealth

Being a straight action game, Obsidian didn't bother with any stealth in Dungeon Siege 3. Result = solid game, if a bit boring. That is the closest valid example that you could draw a parallel to without being laughable.

IF Obsidian implemented jumping and it ended up being shit, then that would be a valid example. The funny thing is that the only Obsidian game with any jumping at all is FNV which, again, operates on Bethesda's framework.

I don't know what you mean by a "full spectrum stealth", though.

Let's take Commandos series for stylistic similarity which you seem to care. Commandos series are tactical isometric RT games about killing lots of Nazi soldiers. And the stealth is good. Systems for utilizing stealth are thought out, have a good feedback mechanism and enable a wide range of tactical options. And I would be very happy if PE provided at least that much but it is obvious it won't.

Uh, you didn't actually respond to what I said. Why do you ask for shoehorned mechanics, without context, instead of asking for the types of games that support those mechanics?

 

[felipepepe]

Sci-Fi RPG, turn-based, directed by Tim Cain.

I wouldn't mind if it was also set in a space high-school and a sequel to Chrono Trigger, using Steampunk technology.

 

[cherry blossom]

Generalising the "type of games that support those mechanics" isn't productive. You must break it down to mechanical functions and discuss the gameplay opportunities they create. Stealth in Commandos:

- You can observe enemies' field of vision and distance modifiers
- You can observe the range of sound you make
- There are enemy behaviour triggers (rock, coin, dead body, sound) that you can utilize
- Enemies have multiple states of awareness that can assign them new actions and modify their behaviour
- Enemies can trigger behaviour modifiers or transfer awareness state to allies

As opposed to IE games model:

- Sneak to scout undetected
- Occasional theft opportunity
- Backstab damage modifier

JA2 practically has all of the above, by the way, but I think Commandos is a more relevant example for being RT and how that feature set relates to TB vs. RT.

Anyway, none of that matters. We know PE won't have anything like that, or anything at all beyond the standard IE games model. Well, Sawyer mentioned patrols, so there will be that, it seems.

Wut http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Stealth

Oopsie. Totally forgot. Right. IE games standard.

 

[tuluse]

PE stealth isn't going to be like IE. You can't just turn on stealth and walk through everything. You use it to get closer and position yourself.

 

[Grunker]

cherry blossom: great display of complete lack of research

both DAs had stealth, DAI even had KotOR2ish stealth almost pound for pound.

 

[cherry blossom]

Just checked DA wikia. Standard IE games model, it seems.

 

[Roguey]

If Sawyer isn't the systems lead at the very least on the next Kickstarter-funded project, my interest is going to plummet to near-zero unless it's an amazing concept. Something for Obsidian to keep in mind.

Just checked DA wikia. Standard IE games model, it seems.

It was deterministic instead of random though. You either had enough stealth to sneak by someone or you didn't.

Oh yeah and one of the DA2 DLCs had a ~stealth section~.

 

[Chet Manly]

Never mind stealth, asshole, talk to me about isometric doors.

 

[cherry blossom]

I imagine that must have been a good decision for such a popamole console game.

 

[Roguey]

Oh yeah, forgot about Volourn.

"HAHAHA! Is he on fukkin' drugz?"

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/41385-nwn2-only-20-hours-long/page-14#entry603090

Wow on your first playthrough you beat IWD2 faster than QA sprinters who had worked on it for months. Somehow, I think you're exaggerating. My first playthrough of IWD2 took 80+ hours and I was the lead designer. It was rare in the extreme that I had to reload for any battle and I knew how all of the puzzled worked.

And Feargus' initial estimates for IWD2 were 30-40 hours. Even if you are, in fact, the most amazing CRPG player ever, those who finished IWD2 typically clocked far more than 30-40 hours on it.

Last time I tried it took me over a month.

 

[cherry blossom]

I had to wipe the HDD 50+ hours into the game and then never went back to it again. Is it worth finishing the game? I remember I had already gotten sick of the grind at the time though I think I was playing one of the higher (highest?) difficulties.

 

[Roguey]

I had to wipe the HDD 50+ hours into the game and then never went back to it again. Is it worth finishing the game? I remember I had already gotten sick of the grind at the time though I think I was playing one of the higher (highest?) difficulties.

I liked the final area but if you didn't like it, it wouldn't be worth playing it again just to see it.