Vapourware Scam Citizen - Only people with too much money can become StarCitizens! WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?

[Country_Gravy]

Does anyone else read HOTAS as Hot Ass? Always makes me want to head back to the Butt Crowd thread.

Anyway, carry on about this disaster in the making. This thread is very entertaining.

 

[omega21]

I played Hawken too. I don't think it's possible to create a mech game that caters to the FPS crowd.

 

[Blaine]

Right, and for sizable development houses, there's not enough money to be made from the much smaller group of people who want an actual mech simulation.

I was on board with Star Citizen almost from the very beginning. The turning point (or wake-up call) for me came when I got my hands on Arena Commander and became aware of the mouse-waving gimballing bullshit—not only that, but Roberts vociferously defended said mouse-waving bullshit and claimed that people simply didn't realize what they were talking about, that his sim was too deep and the skill ceiling too high for anyone to really "get it" yet. In addition, even back then, the project had become so huge and so many millions had been accumulated that I knew CIG would have an overwhelming incentive to cater to mouse users.

(There were other factors too, such as the release of yet another capital ship for sale for $2,500 or some such insanity. It's important to note that the "main" crowdfunding campaign, which was always primarily on the Star Citizen website even though they also did a 30-day Kickstarter, never really ended. In the beginning I could tell myself that it was, after all, a crowdfunding campaign; and also that there's no reason for them to stop accepting pledges after some arbitrary date, and that more money would make the game bigger and better; but I should have realized much, much sooner that constantly cranking out new ship models in order to sell them ASAP, even going so far as to sell pledge ships for $250+ based on concept art, role, and title alone without even a barebones in-game model, was venturing into the realm of insanity.)

Impotent claims that CIG would "look into controller agnosticity" have never been followed up on or even reiterated, at least not that I'm aware of. I stopped following Star Citizen many months ago, so perhaps I'm mistaken, but for the most part I consider these lame attempts to placate the ever-shrinking hard core of simulationists and stall until there's no way to hide that the game is 100% designed so that these incredibly over-designed, over-produced, complex starship models are just albatrosses that follow along with what is essentially a slowed-down first-person shooter in space flight and weapons model.

If the dogfighting isn't correct, I don't give a shit about the rest of it.

 

[Infinitron]

tl;dr Mouse-aimed gimballed turrets are Blaine's melee engagement

 

[Ulminati]

So there's a speed cap in Star Citizen? I'm sure DraQ approves

 

[potatojohn]

But why is it damped in the beginning?

 

[Whiran]

But why is it damped in the beginning?

cause space magic

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

so in the end it was indeed totally wrong as i said? how quaint!

 

[Perkel]

I don't get why people don't get why there are speed limits in space games and just how easy is to set them actually in realistic fashion.

I mean from game standpoint if you don't have set max speed limit there wouldn't be any dogfighting.
From realism standpoint it is really easy to produce problem to which speed limit is an answer.

For example:

- due to lack of power to overcome inertia and turn ship quickly above certain speed any missile would get any ship regardless of its max speed (remember that missiles are always faster than ships due to their design). So creating speed limit would be simply way to counter such weapons and be sort of safe valve so you won't make mistake and go above that limit to be easily picked by missile. Nothing in the end will keep you back from turning on cruise mode...
- due to limit of your radar you can't accelerate much as radar can't scan and provide you data quickly enough to make corrections needed to move away your ship from collision course with small rocks or even dust (remember that velocity has huge impact on damage being delt). You can have better speed than standard one (aka cruise mode) but ship needs to cut out middle men (aka pilot) and use several systems like long range scaners and few others that will limit your interaction with ship and possibly cut some system completely (like shields) for cruise flight time.

I think maximum velocity achievable is not something i need to cover here because it is pretty much established fact that you can't increase speed forever. Comets don't even achieve 0.1c and they are torn apart by simply radiation from sun let alone things like collisions with dust or other stuff. Hitting even cloud of oxygen in nebulae at those speeds would tear ship apart like you would hit into wall.

But why is it damped in the beginning?

engine can't generate 100% of power from first second (unless it is all electric with no propellant). I think this is the reason.

From the link:



Ok, 90% of that went completely over my head.
Any hardcore space-sim veteran out there willing to explain?

Basically their old system was patchwork till they have all systems in it. Thanks to feedback from dog fighting module they focused on parts where people said it sucked.

In other news they wanted to remove clinical aspect of ship behavior and make it more rough so for examle when you press thrust ship wouldn't be able to accelerate in completely linear fashion down to microseconds. So due to some factors like errors in engine of your ship your acceleration will wobble a bit same as everything else like turning etc.


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Overall i wish they would go for more analog future.
I loved how it was done in The Legend of Galactic Heroes and it was so awesomely described why it was like that.
Gist of TLoGH was that due to increasing effectiveness of jamming. So due to technological war jamming became so succesfull that all forms of non analog combat became almost useless.

So things like homing missiles, radars, remote weapons etc became useless. Even such thing as communication had to be delivered like in 19 century via messengers from ship to ship. So things like formations in space had to be made to not crash into each other and salvos were used to increase effectivness like in early black powder era.

With such setting dogfights would be based around mostly skill without computer assists.

 

[Ulminati]

I don't get why people don't get why there are speed limits in space games and just how easy is to set them actually in realistic fashion.

Because sometimes going 100% realism does not result in a game that's fun to pick up and play.
The "solutions" by advocates of infinite speed spacefighters always boil down to some variant of "let the computer do the aiming" or "tracking missiles!" which gets really boring really quickly in a spacefighter game.

But try telling that to the newtonian brigade.

You're already piloting ftl spaceships that shoot each other with plasma bolts and lasers. (with sound in space!)
If a speed limit is the only thing that shatters your immersion, I'll have whatever drugs you're taking.

 

[potatojohn]

engine can't generate 100% of power from first second (unless it is all electric with no propellant). I think this is the reason.

I'm pretty sure all chemical engines get to full power immediately.

"Spool up" is a feature of jet engines, appropriately enough.

Because sometimes going 100% realism does not result in a game that's fun to pick up and play.
The "solutions" by advocates of infinite speed spacefighters always boil down to some variant of "let the computer do the aiming" or "tracking missiles!" which gets really boring really quickly in a spacefighter game.

But try telling that to the newtonian brigade.

I-War had really fun combat, so it's no wonder that your lies find no traction.

And we'll see how it goes in Rogue System.

 

[Perkel]

I'm pretty sure all chemical engines get to full power immediately.

Only electric engines can do that.

Even if you use rocket engine it takes time before rocket fuel will travel to burning chamber when you increase dosage to increase acceleration. It also takes time for burning proccess to occur and propel gasses out of burning chamber.

 

[potatojohn]

Only electric engines can do that.

Even if you use rocket engine it takes time before rocket fuel will travel to burning chamber when you increase dosage to increase acceleration. It also takes time for burning proccess to occur and propel gasses out of burning chamber.

Nope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELgUNDeLmNw

Look at 0:40.

 

[dbx]

- due to lack of power to overcome inertia and turn ship quickly above certain speed any missile would get any ship regardless of its max speed (remember that missiles are always faster than ships due to their design). So creating speed limit would be simply way to counter such weapons and be sort of safe valve so you won't make mistake and go above that limit to be easily picked by missile. Nothing in the end will keep you back from turning on cruise mode...
- due to limit of your radar you can't accelerate much as radar can't scan and provide you data quickly enough to make corrections needed to move away your ship from collision course with small rocks or even dust (remember that velocity has huge impact on damage being delt). You can have better speed than standard one (aka cruise mode) but ship needs to cut out middle men (aka pilot) and use several systems like long range scaners and few others that will limit your interaction with ship and possibly cut some system completely (like shields) for cruise flight time.

Dude, you should stop talking about things you don't know.
For starter in space flight your absolute speed doesn't matter, unless you are fighting against a "stationary" enemy (but even then, not that much)
What really matter is your relative speed w.r.t. the missile (he is still bounded by the same laws of nature your ship is bound to, unless magic) and more importantly
the thrust difference between your engine and the missile one (which
doesn't change the faster you go) because that's what makes you and the missile change position relative to one another, and how much you change position
relative to the missile frame of reference position doesn't depend on your actual "absolute" speed.
What you refer to as "ability to overcome inertia" is an extremely relative thing that depends on which moving frame of reference you are using.

Secondly, just by being in space you're moving blazingly fast anyway (you're always orbiting something), your ability (or inability) to avoid dust and micro-meteorites doesn't change much.
If not only for the fact you are not capping your absolute speed, just your relative speed.

Unless magic, which is what SC/ED universe seems to be made of.

And that's the retarded thing about speed capping.
Speed capping with respect to what?

 

[Ulminati]

I-War

I-war was frigates with crews to man your turrtes. Not spehss fighters.

 

[Perkel]

Nope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELgUNDeLmNw

Look at 0:40.

20ms is for shortest burn available. It doesn't have anything to do with how much time it takes from press of a button, release fuel to burn process and propelling. This also doesn't mean that fuel will burn instantaneously at same rate whole.
Even electric engines aren't instant much less anything with any kind of fuel.

Dude, you should stop talking about things you don't know.
For starter in space flight your absolute speed doesn't matter, unless you are fighting against a "stationary" enemy (but even then, not that much)
What really matter is your relative speed w.r.t. the missile (he is still bounded by the same laws of nature your ship is bound to, unless magic) and more importantly
the thrust difference between your engine and the missile one

And that's the retarded thing about speed capping.
Speed capping with respect to what?

It does actually because the faster you move the more power you need to change your course.

In mentioned missile scenario i simply meant that missile will be able to catch to you easily and when you travel at high speed you won't be able to dodge it unlike combat speed where you ship doesn't have velocity and can easily turn and dodge it.

 

[AN4RCHID]

https://archive.is/IIO52

Meet a fan who has spent $30,000 on Star Citizen ships

Oy vey.

 

[omega21]

$30,000

"It didn’t start out that way, though. When I started getting into the game years ago, it was this and that, and this and that. And then after I started to see the product mature, I was convinced it was what I also dreamed of, and was hooked. I went in deep. "

 

[Jack Dandy]

Fuckin' shameful is what this is

 

[dbx]

It does actually because the faster you move the more power you need to change your course.
In mentioned missile scenario i simply meant that missile will be able to catch to you easily and when you travel at high speed you won't be able to dodge it unlike combat speed where you ship doesn't have velocity and can easily turn and dodge it.

You do realize everything you've just said applies to the missile too? Moving faster os slower doesn't change the missile ability (or inability) to get to you.
Only thing that matter is the thrust of both the missile and the ship, their masses and their relative speed with one another, and that's it.

 

[Perkel]

You do realize everything you've just said applies to the missile too? Moving faster os slower doesn't change the missile ability (or inability) to get to you.
Only thing that matter is the thrust of both the missile and the ship, their masses and their relative speed with one another, and that's it.

yes but missile constantly accelerates which means that the more laverage your have in changing your position in spherical plane being centered on missile the way better your chances of survival are.
Only movement perpendicular toward missile course is effective.

So the more stationary target is the more leverage it has to change its course compared to missle itself. If missle is fast enough that change of movement will be greater than change of direction of missile available (at every increasing speed).
The faster ship is the less maneuverable it is in frame of reference of missile moving toward it.

This is why at high speed it is harder to avoid missile and the slower your are in frame of reference of missile the faster you can change direction thus avoid misslle which won't be able to change direction so fast due to its velocity.

Perfect space missile would be missile that would have both forward and backward thrust (thrusters to change direction) and missile speed would decrease closing in to target so it can have more leverage in therms of changing directions or missle that would be shaped like the sphere where its main thruster would be traveling in 360 degree around that sphere but still its mass to thrust proportion would need to be taken into account with possibility of slowing it down before impact itself.

 

[dbx]

Everything you just wrote is about relative speed between ship and missile, NOT absolute speed (which would be non sensical in space)

 

[Perkel]

ship ui alpha 2.0 update:

https://player.vimeo.com/video/144917841

 

[Metro]

https://archive.is/IIO52



Oy vey.

 

[J_C]

yes but missile constantly accelerates

Actually missiles only accelerate for a few seconds, they reach their top speed quickly, because there is not much space for carrying a lot of fuel. Of course this is only for real missiles, they can make up whatever shit they want in space games.

ship ui alpha 2.0 update:

https://player.vimeo.com/video/144917841

Now this is awesome. This is like a fully clickable cockpit in flight simulators, where you can really toggle every part of your flightcraft.