Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

[Multidirectional]

All of From Soft games I've played so far seemed to be designed specifically to punish button mashing (maybe bit less true for DSIII) and I'm pretty sure I could get away more with button mashing in DMC5 than I could in Sekiro.. Still like both games a lot, just saying.

 

[Multidirectional]

Well yeah, actually. The older I am the more repulsed I'm by flashy, silly, gaudy gameplay or art style and the more attracted I am by everything as realistic as possible.

And the older I get the less impressed I am by games that go for tryhard realism over fun. Especially because the "realism" oriented games have a tendency to waste my time on boring bullshit when I could be doing something actually fun. And being older I am less and less patient with shit that wastes my time. "Kingdom Come" was the exception I guess, I liked it a lot but that one too could've used less realism. Some of the shit in it just starts feeling like pointless busy work after a while. Over last couple years I've even developed new found love for Doom via Brutal Doom mod and countless user made wads. And Dusk was great fun too. Fuck these "realistic" shooters. Perhaps you've just been developing some shit taste bro. Can happen too, regardless of age.

 

[cvv]

And the older I get the less impressed I am by games that go for tryhard realism over fun.

And how old are you?

 

[Multidirectional]

And how old are you?

35

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Well yeah, actually. The older I am the more repulsed I'm by flashy, silly, gaudy gameplay or art style and the more attracted I am by everything as realistic as possible.

It's gotten to the point I don't give a shit about gud gaemplay anymore if it's packaged with anime or Nintendo or any other cartoony art style and conversely I can forgive a mediocre gameplay if the vibe is grounded - that's why I love RDR2 for instance.

Well for each his own I guess.
But while taste (what someone likes) is subjective quality is not.
So whilist you migth prefer a ''mature'' game with meciocre design to a more fantastical one with great design, you shouldn't set aside the latter as unfit nor deny it's excellence.

Also if this is the case, why the hell did you consider REmake 2 as anime?
It's got a much more grounded vibe and setting to it than Sekiro does.

 

[cvv]

So whilist you migth prefer a ''mature'' game with meciocre design to a more fantastical one with great design, you shouldn't set aside the latter as unfit nor deny it's excellence.
Also if this is the case, why the hell did you consider REmake 2 as anime?

And that's exactly why I said at the very beginning I don't trash cartoony games anymore.
Also when did I say Remake is anime?

Dude that's like the third time in a row, you should work on your reading comprehension (or retention), seriously.

 

[Multidirectional]

You're missing some context, my bad: I've been playing the game and not particularly impressed so far

Where are you at in game? Tell us your Sekiro stories. Did you git gud already?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Also when did I say Remake is anime?

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-game-awards-2019.130800/page-4#post-6420383
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-game-awards-2019.130800/page-4#post-6420437

snip

Alrigth for starters, I don't think Sekiro is a bad game. It's nice and fun - sure is better than dynasty warriors and the others you mentioned.
But it's honestely I belive it's the weakest one From has put out in these 10 last years.
And if they want to go in this direction (more action oriented titles), they need to work on a lot of stuff.

Sekiro is admittedly a hard game to critique, because everything here is functional (on paper).
But once I get down with the combat, there's something there that it frankly feels off.
So I'll explain things the best I can.

Action games are all about giving you tools to succeed and requiring you to effectively read their opponents and react.
Unfortunately Sekiro in my eyes fails in both parts.

The PC is the slowest attacking character on the field. Enemies are able to dodge you, interrupt your attacks and their combos are longer and more damaging. Given the speed of enemies, there should be some sort of canceling animations in this game. If an enemy begins their attack while you are attacking, most of the time you’re going to be the one taking damage.

Regarding the three defenses: parrying, dodging, and jumping.
As you know they are used to counter specific attacks - for the most part (will talk about later)...
The problem is that it’s impossible on instinct/reaction to read what defense to use when. This isn’t a game where just looking at the enemy tells you what attacks to expect.
Enemy attack animations are fast, and similar to Soulsborne titles, the same starting attack animation can lead into different combo patterns.
Does this attack require parrying, or is it a jump? You’re not going to be able to answer this in the first few tries.

This is something that then intensifies to that prevaling issue of beating the enemies by memorization.

In fact, the game feels very mechanical.
Enemies seem to be designed to block all your attacks except those specifically designed to kill them - i.e., if an enemy can only be defeated by counter slashing, then that’s it.
The only way to win is to know ahead of time what attack the enemy performs and how to counter them. There's no room for experiementation or improvisation, the whole thing appears to be about performing a sequence of X maneuvers perfectly - like a choreography.
You can even see this in how weirdly limited/specific in use most tools and moves are.

Enemies also give me the feeling of having less attack patterns compared to the Souls series - if this is the case than it probably is to compensate for the fact that the player has to read the patterns more closely and because of the overall increased enemy number.
The design difference between Sekiro and Soulborne titles comes down to this - in previous games, a boss fight was dependent on both the enemy and your own build; here, the only thing that matters is the boss patterns itself and not the player.

Action games have to be designed around a tug of war between player and enemy.
Problems arise when the game is not consistent in its rules and how the mechanics work from battle to battle. A notion which Sekiro has no problems in ignoring
Giving of some examples of my playtrogh: the thrust attack that’s supposed to always cause damage on block doesn’t always work on bosses; sometimes, even their normal attacks would go through my block, and then a minute later the block would hold; there were cases where even dodging at the right time to avoid an attack I was still hit; I also noticed cases where the speed at which posture reduces changed, regardless if I was holding block or not.

And finally speaking of stealth.
No it doesn't let you properly sneak your way through the levels and enemies.
Just the fact that enemies can spot you a mile away if you’re standing up, but can calmly walk around them while crouching is bad enough. But once an enemy spots you, all enemies in the area know where you are. Even if you break line of sight, they can still find your position (not even Oblivion did that man).
The stealth should have been more developed, considering how much it is a core gameplay system.

Man, oh, man, I've never see someone being so absolutely fucking wrong, it's not even funny. Dragon's Dogma? Better melee combat than Sekiro? Really?

Yeah.
Sure the combat migth not have the satisfying feel to it like Sekiro, and to be honest it's combat is not as difficult to master. But it does have: a conisderable amount of well designed mechanics that all inter-link with each other; a large variety of techniques that allow for multiple distinct playstyles; a very good enemy rooster that supports all those playstyles; none of the problems mentioned above.

 

[Villagkouras]

Just take a break when a fight starts pissing you off, you might just do it on first time when you come back. Sword Saint does take longer to memorize due to all the different phases, for me the second phase with the spear was most annoying. But now I love that fight too.

Yeah, I remember the first time I encountered fucking Capra Demon being total noob in Souls games and going in completely blind. I was hitting my head for hours trying to win this fight. I haven't raged more in a video game. Eventually I put the game aside for 3-4 days, I was furious. Next time I picked it, I beat the fucker first time,I couldn't believe it.

 

[Multidirectional]

It's sometimes enough to just take an hour break. I always do that now when I am starting to get frustrated. Switch to another game for a while or go do some of that life shit. When I get pissed off at game I play it even worse and just keep losing so what's the point.

 

[cvv]

Yeah, I remember the first time I encountered fucking Capra Demon being total noob in Souls games and going in completely blind.

Same here. My memories of Capra are a dark, dark place to be.

 

[Lutte]

Enemy attack animations are fast, and similar to Soulsborne titles, the same starting attack animation can lead into different combo patterns.
Does this attack require parrying, or is it a jump? You’re not going to be able to answer this in the first few tries.

Game has quite a lot of "trick" moves that fucks with your mind but aren't hard to avoid once you understand them, the most explicit example programmed with a lot of varying animations is Owl Father's charged move. He does a charge that makes it look like he's going to dump the sword on your head, and that is what he's going to do if you don't move at all and dodge at the last second only. But if you try to just walk on the sides or dodge early, that move suddenly turns into a full horizontal sweep. If you dodge to the back he jumps on you. It's pure trial and error understanding that he can do the latter two moves, you know it because you made the mistake of trying to find alternative ways of dealing with that slow ass boring charge move. Then you learn that there's only one valid way of dealing with it : dodge at the specific timing.
This is not so different from the enemy uber tracking found in the latter souls games, that people complained a lot about, where the enemy would spin like crazy to follow where you are, it's just better animated so that instead of rotating in place the character looks like he's doing a different attack. And this is where you spot how much blind fanboyism this game receives, some of the features that were most complained about other From's games is now something taken as a positive.

Once the timing for avoiding that attack is memorized it should never hit you again. But it's really boring type of pattern where you are asked to wait for a few seconds and NOT DO ANYTHING and ONLY AVOID IT THE ONE, CORRECT WAY (dodge at the specific time). This is the sort of combat system people call "deep". There's no opportunity for finding interesting positionings and having fun with the combat system (a good example of a game series that makes a lot of use of positioning yourself as part of the gameplay is the Monster Hunters) when the enemy has charging moves. The game just wants you to wait and do nothing like a good boy.

Once I fully let go of trying stuff and just waited patiently like a doll during certain segments I found the game became about 10x easier. Isshin in particular was a lot easier after I let go and stopped moving, stopped doing much during the fight and focused on countering only a few of his moves. The biggest enemy in this game is yourself when you try to approach it like a less straight-jacketed game. It's really about doing the exact thing it asks of you.

 

[cvv]

Enemy attack animations are fast, and similar to Soulsborne titles, the same starting attack animation can lead into different combo patterns.
Does this attack require parrying, or is it a jump? You’re not going to be able to answer this in the first few tries.

Nor the next few ones. Nor after 150 hours. Nor fucking ever.

Spoiler

 

[Momock]

Game has quite a lot of "trick" moves that fucks with your mind but aren't hard to avoid once you understand them, the most explicit example programmed with a lot of varying animations is Owl Father's charged move. He does a charge that makes it look like he's going to dump the sword on your head, and that is what he's going to do if you don't move at all and dodge at the last second only. But if you try to just walk on the sides or dodge early, that move suddenly turns into a full horizontal sweep. If you dodge to the back he jumps on you. It's pure trial and error understanding that he can do the latter two moves, you know it because you made the mistake of trying to find alternative ways of dealing with that slow ass boring charge move. Then you learn that there's only one valid way of dealing with it : dodge at the specific timing.
This is not so different from the enemy uber tracking found in the latter souls games, that people complained a lot about, where the enemy would spin like crazy to follow where you are, it's just better animated so that instead of rotating in place the character looks like he's doing a different attack. And this is where you spot how much blind fanboyism this game receives, some of the features that were most complained about other From's games is now something taken as a positive.

Once the timing for avoiding that attack is memorized it should never hit you again. But it's really boring type of pattern where you are asked to wait for a few seconds and NOT DO ANYTHING and ONLY AVOID IT THE ONE, CORRECT WAY (dodge at the specific time). This is the sort of combat system people call "deep". There's no opportunity for finding interesting positionings and having fun with the combat system (a good example of a game series that makes a lot of use of positioning yourself as part of the gameplay is the Monster Hunters) when the enemy has charging moves. The game just wants you to wait and do nothing like a good boy.

Once I fully let go of trying stuff and just waited patiently like a doll during certain segments I found the game became about 10x easier. Isshin in particular was a lot easier after I let go and stopped moving, stopped doing much during the fight and focused on countering only a few of his moves. The biggest enemy in this game is yourself when you try to approach it like a less straight-jacketed game. It's really about doing the exact thing it asks of you.

This is total bullshit, you can deal with this move in a lot of ways. You can even interrupt it with the fire and follow it with 2-3 fire sword hits, or use this free time to drink something. It's the same for a lot of his attacks.

And people didn't complained because the ennemies from DS2 and 3 adapted to what they were doing, they complained because it was silly and at times looked broken in the way it was done.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Think I'm done with this for awhile. Don't feel like playing something this punishing anymore.

Made it to Demon of Hatred. I know he's optional. Figured out all of his attacks except for a few:

-When he charges and follows up with a fireball/fire field, I don't see how to reliably dodge it. The suzaku umbrella woks great but I actually run out of emblems in the third phase. *grumble grumble*

-When he does his four-hit combo (swipe-stomp-stomp-swipe) Dodging seems risky but blocking still inflicts quite a bit of damage. I had luck at one point dodging back the last hit but started getting hit which was worse than blocking. Overall seems like a kinda bullshity combo of forced damage.

 

[Multidirectional]

I never bothered to beat that fight, too annoying. I did it once with trainer just to see what comes of it storywise and I just skip it from then on. Cannot be arsed to learn that bullshit fight. One boss that I will never learn to love.

 

[Hassar]

The game just wants you to wait and do nothing like a good boy.

Honestly, this comment succintly sums it up - you’re supposed to wait and learn how to play the rhythm game like a “good boy.” Somewhat why Lady Butterfly makes that comment about being a puppy. I felt no excitement, danger, or thrill in the combat because there really is no spontaneity or reward for executing a good idea - the only reward is for doing the sequence of moves demanded of the game at that time for that enemy.

 

[Ash]

You're missing some context, my bad: I've been playing the game and not particularly impressed so far

Where are you at in game? Tell us your Sekiro stories. Did you git gud already?

I am at Madame Butterfly/Akiro Castle/Reservoir, I have choice which of the three I want to take on it seems. Probably about 10 hours playtime. I like the sub-focus on verticality, platforming and aerial combat. Souls games had some but it was minimal. I don't like the lack of RPG elements; my expectation was an action RPG. Doesn't make the game bad though. Combat is good, very good at its core even, but most mini/boss enemies simply hit too hard leaving little room to learn their attack patterns them other than through repeated death. Meanwhile you get everyone else that you can mostly stomp through easier than Dark Souls mobs, without including stealth attacks on top. I find this discrepancy strange and that it doesn't fully prepare you for the asshole bosses. At least consequences for death are relaxed a little though. The level design is also pretty damn good.
The game reminds me a lot of Tenchu, a series I've long wanted to see return, with perhaps slightly too punishing difficulty and far less awesome music, as well as better combat.

Dislike:

-Music (I wasn't expecting much of anything here though. All modern games that aren't indie just don't do good music).
-Streamlined RPG systems (doesn't make the game bad, just had expectations).
-Lack of variety to deathblow animations, and where the fuck is the decapitation/dismemberment? Really dropped the ball here.
-A number of aspects of challenge design. Probably my main issue with the game.

It's still a good game and better than that poster makes it out to be. I'll admit in my disappointment I wanted to believe the game was worse than it is, just because disappointment is all I find in modern vidja -- this is way better than most games these days, of course. I don't regret my purchase. It seems like one step forward two steps back from Souls games though.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

The game reminds me a lot of Tenchu

Sekiro was conceived as a new Tenchu game originally

 

[Lutte]

It's still a good game and better than that poster makes it out to be. .

You are nowhere yet in the game. When I was at that butterfly split I was loads more optimistic about the game. When the game removes your fast travel points to ashina castle and makes you invade it for the third time and you realize how little the content variety is and how much copy pasting is going on you'll sing another song.

 

[Multidirectional]

Meanwhile you get everyone else that you can mostly stomp through easier than Dark Souls mobs, without including stealth attacks on top. I find this discrepancy strange and that it doesn't fully prepare you for the asshole bosses.

You are in very early stage of the game. I suggest practicing to kill the easiest enemies without doing a single hit of vitality damage to them, to get you in the right mindset for this game. I don't think I could call some of the enemies that become regular mobs later on "easier than Dark Souls mobs", but it is true that they are easier to dodge in this game if you want to. Also another way earlier game can leave a bad impression is it has too many mini-bosses with mobs around them. That can be pretty frustrating on first run when you have not yet become a god of countering. Lady Butterfly is the first boss in game that's meant to set you on the right path of how to approach bosses.

 

[praetor]

add me to the people who think Sekiro is meh. dunno if i'd rate it lower than DS3 (probably not 'cause at least it's trying to do something different). for context, i got to the Owl encounter back in spring before i injured myself and haven't had the urge to play ever since. the only bosses on which i spent an inordinate amount of time up to that point were... drumroll... the flaming gay bull and the machinegun chick, iirc.

it's just so... profoundly meh. the levels are okay, but exploration feels like "look for the tool icon" 8 times out of 10. the environmental hazards are also pointless 9 times out of 10 'cause there's almost always a grappling point nearby so you can smash button and be saved. i don't think i've ever died from the environment unless i was just randomly fucking around expecting to die falling, or if you count the hugesnake as "environmental hazard"

the stealth is utter shit, too, because you're so goddamned overpowered. it's like a significantly worse Batman (and Batman was already meh 'cause, again, you were OP). after the initial hour or two where the game was still fucking with me 'cause my brain was still in "Souls-mode", you realize pretty quickly that mobs are meaningless 'cause they're meant to be one-shot with stealth attacks (so that you can get a "free" stealth attack on the token miniboss). it just all feels so... formulaic

half-way through my playthrough i started thinking this game would've been better if it was like Fury, so you fight just the bosses and don't bother with the pointless trash mobs. but even the bosses can be meh 'cause sometimes they feel too much like QTEs (yes, i fucking went there. sue me. but when the game explicitly tells you what button to press with a big flashing icon, that's a QTE pretty much by definition. the only difference is that it's not during a cutscene... that's why i said "feels like QTEs" instead of "are just QTEs" )

i really really wanted to love this, the setting and visual design are some of their best, probably on par with Bloodborne, it touches the inner child weeaboo in me in all the right places 'cause you're playing fucking Ninja Manji and are a badass... but the codex-hardened "mature" me is thoroughly unimpressed by the mechanics

 

[cvv]

I actually agree the stealth system is retarded, beyond repair. Removing it completely for the potential sequel would be the best thing FromSoft could do with the game.

And there are other major flaws too you haven't mentioned, like idols every few steps, rendering all the shortcuts completely pointless, or the entire prosthetic tool stuff being a useless feature that was artificially grafted onto the game because hey, we gotta have money and loot as a reward mechanic, and if we have money and loot we gotta have money and loot sink too.

What I think happened was FromSoft had some free capacity to make another game alongside their main project - Elden Ring - and thought "but only something simple, not another complex RPG". But then realized simple just won't do anymore in this day and age where even dumb shooters have RPG elements and so the feature creep started.

Thing is I'm not sure I'd be perfectly happy without any loot either. Shineys are a big part of all Souls-likes so maybe FromSoft was right to worry about higher expectations for action games nowadays. The execution leaves a bad taste in the mouth tho.

 

[Maggot]

Sekiro has better combat than Dark Rolls.

 

[Cat Dude]

It is depressing watching a youtuber playing it like Dark Souls.