Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

[Sentinel]

Game's a nightmare for someone with ophidiophobia.

 

[sullynathan]

You know someone is wrong when they're praising FROM Software's dumbass AI and Jedi Knight as great combat.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

No but they need complexity to the mechanics, variety of techniques and high skill ceiling to master. None of which Sekiro properly provides - specially comparing to the games I mentioned above

Would you say that AI aggressiveness is one of the core components of a great combat system and action game?

Well to be exact, that core component is enemy design from which aggressiveness is one aspect.
And the ideal level of agressiveness very much depends on your combat system and general principle behind that specific enemy.

What happens when you get more satisfaction from any encounter in Sekiro because its animations, sound, mechanics and AI are so tight, than from a game like DMC where the AI is just standing there waiting to be juggled in the air for sick x20000 combos?

>Sekiro
>tigher mechanics and more detailed animations than DMC

You need better timing to perform the stuff in this clip than anything in Sekiro or any other From game:


Also don't fall for meme arguments of /v/ brainlets like "DMC's only depth is juggling derp".
The only only enemies you can juggled indefinitely are the fodder, i.e. enemies whose danger is their numbers. All mid-tier enemies can't be juggled forever and have attacks to fuck up your air combos.
The only enemies that are not very agressive are also the fodder, who by the way are more agressive the higher their numbers. So while 1 of those enemies migth be shy, the give him a couple of mates and they will become a threat.
Finally staying the air is really not easy.
Like all great action games, you can become ridiculously OP and do some shit you thought impossible but that only comes with complete mastery of the game. Which is itself a very good reward for doing so.

 

[cvv]

I actually don't trash games like DMC anymore, learned to respect them, in a way.

But I think the main reason Demon's Souls skyrocketed in popularity was because it was more grounded and realistic, as opposed to the gamey, flashy shenanigans people were used to in spectacle fighters. You can see the swings, hear the swooshes, feel the weight and for many people this is much more appealing than the 30-seconds-juggling-in-the-air carnival.

I'd have never gotten into action gaymz without Souls-likes, even though I can only go so far. Stuff like DMC5 is already way too over-the-top for me.

 

[Dawkinsfan69]

I fucking looooved metal gear revengeance! Actually was my favorite action combat game until souls games then Sekiro came out, only complaint is it's too easy but it's still a lot of fun. I played ninja gaiden black on one of the xbox's when I was REALLY young kid and I liked it a lot but I never got really far and I don't remember much Too bad those games aren't on PC.

DJOGamer PT Whenever I watch DMC combat videos, the combat looks really similar to games like those batman games or those newer lotr 'shadow of mordor' type games where basically you spam "xxxxxxxxxxx" and the character just bounces around doing all the combat for you. Is that how it actually is or was my assumption wrong?

Also temped to pick up Nioh since it's on sale...

 

[sullynathan]

DMC looks like Arkham and shadow of war


Then references two games that directly took from DMC

 

[Sentinel]

I fucking looooved metal gear revengeance! Actually was my favorite action combat game until souls games then Sekiro came out, only complaint is it's too easy but it's still a lot of fun. I played ninja gaiden black on one of the xbox's when I was REALLY young kid and I liked it a lot but I never got really far and I don't remember much Too bad those games aren't on PC.

DJOGamer PT Whenever I watch DMC combat videos, the combat looks really similar to games like those batman games or those newer lotr 'shadow of mordor' type games where basically you spam "xxxxxxxxxxx" and the character just bounces around doing all the combat for you. Is that how it actually is or was my assumption wrong?

Also temped to pick up Nioh since it's on sale...

The "bouncing around" that happens automatically in batman is done manually in DMC. That's one key difference.

 

[Dawkinsfan69]

DMC looks like Arkham and shadow of war

hey cockass dicksujck fuck bitchcuck cunt:

combats in those games DO look similar! in arkham and SoW you stunlock enemies and combo swing at them until they die.. every video of DMC i've seen looks like that too

sorry for asking a question

jesus

stupid codex website

 

[Dawkinsfan69]

next time I won't bother having an open mind I'll just play planescape torment and suck MCA's dick for eternity like the rest of you fuckaingshits

UFCK

FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I actually don't trash games like DMC anymore, learned to respect them, in a way.

But I think the main reason Demon's Souls skyrocketed in popularity was because it was more grounded and realistic, as opposed to the gamey, flashy shenanigans people were used to in spectacle fighters. You can see the swings, hear the swooshes, feel the weight and for many people this is much more appealing than the 30-seconds-juggling-in-the-air carnival.

I'd have never gotten into action gaymz without Souls-likes, even though I can only go so far. Stuff like DMC5 is already way too over-the-top for me.

I don't think slower, more grounded games are worse because they are less gamey.
Those types of systems can obviously be great as well and have their place (Nioh, Severance and For Honor are games of that type).
I simply believe it's a fallacy to think realism=quality.
Videogames are not simulation but an exageration reality.
So even in "grounded" games, there must a prevalent element of abstraction or simplification or hyperbole, for the sake of having some good design - obviously actual simulators work the other way around.

As for too over the top, let me give you an example.
Do you also don't play shooters like Doom and Dusk because you think they are too over the top compared to Rainbow 6 and SWAT?

I played ninja gaiden black on one of the xbox's when I was REALLY young kid and I liked it a lot but I never got really far and I don't remember much Too bad those games aren't on PC.

There's something called emulators though...
If you want to try Ninja Gaiden 1, download the PS3 emulator - RPCS3 - and Ninja Gaiden Sigma.
As a warning, after some deaths the game will asks you if want to abandon the ninja way, select no otherwise the game will make fun of you and send you to easy mode (which is called Ninja Dog).
After you complete the game is normal you unlock hard mode, then very hard then ninja master - NG doesn't fuck around and NG2 is even worse.

DJOGamer PT Whenever I watch DMC combat videos, the combat looks really similar to games like those batman games or those newer lotr 'shadow of mordor' type games where basically you spam "xxxxxxxxxxx" and the character just bounces around doing all the combat for you. Is that how it actually is or was my assumption wrong?

It's your assumption.
You can't do any moves in DMC by mashing a button. You have to do everything manually.

 

[Multidirectional]

DJOGamer PT Whenever I watch DMC combat videos, the combat looks really similar to games like those batman games or those newer lotr 'shadow of mordor' type games where basically you spam "xxxxxxxxxxx" and the character just bounces around doing all the combat for you. Is that how it actually is or was my assumption wrong?

No combat in DMC isn't anything like those popamole games, and if you loved Metal Gear Revengeance you should also love DMC.

 

[Sentinel]

DJOGamer PT Whenever I watch DMC combat videos, the combat looks really similar to games like those batman games or those newer lotr 'shadow of mordor' type games where basically you spam "xxxxxxxxxxx" and the character just bounces around doing all the combat for you. Is that how it actually is or was my assumption wrong?

No combat in DMC isn't anything like those popamole games, and if you loved Metal Gear Revengeance you should also love DMC.

That's not true at all. MGRR is, like Sekiro, very parry focused. DMC isn't. I really like MGRR but DMC is boring as fuck in comparison.

 

[Dawkinsfan69]

^^^^^^^^ alright as WTF is going on one of uall; yall bitches is lying to me
based on the vids i've seen, dmc looks like a masher

but FUCK IT, wahtever I don't have time for games anyway I have like >> 100 eps of BARUTO to watch

 

[DJOGamer PT]

based on the vids i've seen, dmc looks like a masher

But Sekiro doesn't....

but FUCK IT, wahtever I don't have time for games anyway I have like >> 100 eps of BARUTO to watch

The only good stuff in naruto was part 1 - specially the Zabuza arc. After it went to shit faster than you can say Dragon Ball Z.
Boruto, unsurpisingly, is even more shit than Naruto

 

[Dawkinsfan69]

The only good stuff in naruto was part 1 - specially the Zabuza arc. After it went to shit faster than you can say Dragon Ball Z.
Boruto, unsurpisingly, is even more shit than Naruto

WRONG! Best parts of naruto are fillers





zabuza arc is like a crybaby soap opera for girls

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Demon and Dark Soul's appeal was never the actual fighting mechanics.

It was just so rare to have a game that actually punished you for failure in any significant way, and it a way that encouraged you to keep trying and push through it no less.

 

[Dawkinsfan69]

ALSO BORUTOO HAS TRUTH

 

[sullynathan]

sigh

 

[cvv]

"Only" needed 3 hours on Saint Isshin this time around. Shit is too hard, too long, too autistic. I actually felt the pigment cells leaving my hair in droves.

What's next, a 10-phase boss who's gradually splitting into more copies, creating a 20 strong gank squad in the last phase? I'm sure Happy Hob would waltz through this without being hit but what about all the poor peasants FromSoft? Has anyone thought about the peasants?

 

[Multidirectional]

Just take a break when a fight starts pissing you off, you might just do it on first time when you come back. Sword Saint does take longer to memorize due to all the different phases, for me the second phase with the spear was most annoying. But now I love that fight too.

 

[Ash]

Sekiro is such an overrated piece. The boss fights, and some of the minibosses, are cool, but it's like people forget about how much work has been put into making mediocre everything else. The mobs are far less of a threat during blind exploration than any other From games because they just can't deal with your character being a human monkey. The stealth is a useless tacked on feature whose only purpose is to remove a bar of health from a miniboss (you'd have to really, really be terrifyingly bad at video games to find value in stealth killing mobs, such a waste of time. You aggro the miniboss? who cares, just fly around like a monkey to lose aggro then you can come back to get that bar down). The mechanic is so simplistic and boring they might as well have made those minibosses with one less health bar from the start and removed the stealth mechanic. What little depth the combat system has is also overturned by how nothing really matters against non-bosses besides just mashing that button hard. Itemization is.. ehhh. Map variety.. well the game makes you go through some places too many times (hi Ashina Castle). When the game fails in design it's more infuriating than any other from title (demon of hatred.. fuck this garbage). The die twice gimmick so marketed before release turned out to be such a dud (older clips showed it of use on bosses in a more tactical manner than just winning back a life like drinking a potion).

"number one action game" I dunno man, I envision action titles to be more entertaining in between finding bosses.
Replay value is nil besides finding the Shura boss fight, thankfully running through the game again is rather quick because it's so devoid of real content.

I'm deeply understanding why people hate the From cult in general even more from how Sekiro is being elevated into the stratosphere despite being such a flawed title. Moments of brillances overshadowed by a general vibe of meh. If you're going to do a boss rush type of game (ie a game where the only good content is fighting a unique creature) do it properly and don't even bother to include levels in your game, like what Cuphead did (cuphead is mostly boss fights with just a very few segments of traditional run&gun).

Shit...I should've came to the codex first before I bought this game. I should know better than to trust any modern game dev with a blind buy.

 

[Multidirectional]

Oh no, one guy made a negative post, shouldn't have bought the game!

 

[Ash]

You're missing some context, my bad: I've been playing the game and not particularly impressed so far

 

[cvv]

I simply believe it's a fallacy to think realism=quality.

I didn't say anything close to that. I only said many people prefer FromSoft's more realistic style. And for many, like me, it's the only style of action games they can bear to play.

Do you also don't play shooters like Doom and Dusk because you think they are too over the top compared to Rainbow 6 and SWAT?

Well yeah, actually. The older I am the more repulsed I'm by flashy, silly, gaudy gameplay or art style and the more attracted I am by everything as realistic as possible.

It's gotten to the point I don't give a shit about gud gaemplay anymore if it's packaged with anime or Nintendo or any other cartoony art style and conversely I can forgive a mediocre gameplay if the vibe is grounded - that's why I love RDR2 for instance.

 

[Black Angel]

Dude the entire gameplay revolves around R1/L1 mashing.

Did we even play the same game? I remembered needing to jump-stomp a sweep attack, dodge a grab attack, then either Mikiri counter, deflect, or step-dodge a thrusting attack, like, shit loads of time.

Yes, the entire gameplay in the end revolves around R1/L1 mashing because you ought to fill up your target's posture bar, but if we're to go all reductionist on the entire gameplay then Dark Souls revolves around roll-dodging or shield-turtling, then attack to chip at an enemy's HP in-between those.

Like most combat of From games in the past 10 years, it's... decent.
That means, while there's nothing inherently wrong with it, there's also nothing truly great about it.
I would say the reason most people find it outstanding is that one - most people haven't played anything better - and two - the game feels good to play (the animations are nice, the attacks feel like they have a nice punch to them, the sounds effects are sharp, etc).
Whatever it has done, alot of other action games have much done more and better.

I don't know, I guess you're right but the only action games I've played my entire life until this point was some of the Dynasty Warrior games (and its clones, like Samurai Warrior), God of War games (minus Ascension since for some reason Sony hasn't remastered it yet, and the nuGoW since it's not on my priority backlog), then American McGee's Alice (and its sequel, Madness Returns), and some action games not exactly worth mentioning. Compared to ALL that, Sekiro is way far above infinity and beyond in overall quality and execution. Mainly, the games I've mentioned are all about button mashing, but Sekiro is VERY far from that, hence my objection to the notion that Sekiro is all about button mashing.

Yet all that doesn't matter because most individual weapons of a certain type is just a smaller or bigger version of other types of weapons. Different weapons have different movesets, but individually within the same type of weapon they all have exact same moveset, with few weapons here and there where they had a special moveset when two-handed/dual-wielded. The one exception to this is Dark Souls 2 with its power-stancing.

Of course it matters.
It means you have a different playstyle for each weapon type, with the best weapons being specials cases within their type.

Meanwhile, Sekiro with a singular character archetype lets you play around with different shinobi tools and combat arts in addition to your default weapon movesets.

But that selection of tools/moves is small and lacks versatility campared even to other action games, let alone DS.

Still, judging Sekiro, an action-game, based on a quality obviously a game like Dark Souls, an action RPG, has is just baffling.

Except Wunderbar has comparing a quality both games have in common, it's action systems.

I don't know about Wunderbar, but you must be really fucking retarded to think Sekiro's action system is somehow worst or at least not better than Soulsborne. Again, I stand by my stance that judging Sekiro, a fucking *action* game, based on a quality that Dark Souls, a fucking *action-RPG*, obviously has is just damn baffling, all the more retarded if you're speaking in terms of action system.

And 'keep an eye on surroundings'? Did we even play the same game?

Did you played Dark Souls? Not being wary of your surroundings is the fastest way to get yourself killed in that game.
Not saying this is a quality Sekrio doesn't posses - although to a somewhat lesser degree has threats are presented more straightforwardly.

Wunderbar's post implies that Sekiro doesn't possess this quality, and if it's not clear to you I didn't even imply Dark Souls doesn't have environmental hazardous elements that punish unwary players. But saying that as if Sekiro doesn't need you to keep an eye on surroundings is just baffling, especially since places like Ashina Castle has lots of blindspots.

I'd say Sekiro does has lesser degree of environmental threats and blindspots than Dark Souls, but not in terms of quality or quantity, but due to the fact that it has a proper stealth mechanic that lets players to almost immediately absorbs all the details of their surroundings, even on very first playthrough.

It also adds a proper stealth mechanic,

In *context* of Fromsoft's games. Not this walk-very-softly-behind-an-enemy, or equip a ring/casts spells that makes you noiseless/invisible, or a combination of all of them, but a crouching mechanic that lets you actually stealth through the levels and enemies properly.

Sure, there's lots of room of improvement in terms of execution, but I'd say it's because From wasn't entirely sure of developing a stealth game or an action-game.

Severance: Blade of Darkness
Jedi Academy
Ninja Gaiden - Black/Sigma
Devil May Cry 3
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic
God Hand
Ninja Gaiden II
Devil May Cry 4
Bayonetta
Dragon's Dogma
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Bayonetta 2
Nioh
For Honor
Devil May Cry 5

Out of all these, I've only played Dragon's Dogma.

Man, oh, man, I've never see someone being so absolutely fucking wrong, it's not even funny. Dragon's Dogma? Better melee combat than Sekiro? Really?

based on the vids i've seen, dmc looks like a masher

But Sekiro doesn't....

It fucking doesn't. Do share with us a recording of you wiping the floor with Sekiro's enemies solely on R1/L1 mashing, no mikiri-countering, no jump-stomping, no step-dodging, no blocking to regain posture, etc etc.