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Game News Shadowrun Returns Kickstarter Update #85: Hong Kong campaign concept art revealed

Pony King

Educated
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Mar 30, 2011
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93
Generally speaking, games that are highly "setting-specific" rarely have the most thriving mod scenes. The more generic and open, the better. Don't pin your hopes on the Shadowrun Returns modding scene.
Could you use some examples to back up your theory?

The Wc3 scene was much more vibrant and creative despite its relatively setting-specific nature.
Comparatively NWN2 was much less vibrant than NWN because of a more difficult toolset and the increased difficulty in creating custom assets. This is despite both having generic settings.

I wouldn't think myself an expert, but I'd think that popularity and ease of asset creation is far more important in determining whether a modding scene will manage to produce anything worthwhile.

Actually, thinking about it, I think that one thing that hurt SRR was its sci-fi setting. Even here on the codex you see the hivemind flip flop between "fantasy settings are generic and boring" and "I wish it had a generic fantasy setting, I love those.".
 

Athelas

Arcane
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Uh, Warcraft is very much generic fantasy, that only supports his argument. Though from what I understand, WoW took it into some strange furry territory.
 

eXalted

Arcane
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If it's possible for character models and animations to be edited and imported and Attributes and Stats to be added (we can only dream) it will make the setting "setting-specific"-ness of the game wider.

StarCraft II is sci-fi but damn, look at all the gems in the battle.net Arcade.

A modding community can really make a game last longer.
 
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Pony King

Educated
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Messages
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Uh, Warcraft is very much generic fantasy, that only supports his argument. Though from what I understand, WoW took it into some strange furry territory.
I guess that might be a better reading of his post, but I don't see how that makes the argument better.

Wc3 was specific to an orc, elves and humans setting, yet the modders managed to work their way out of that box, and created mods ranging from various kinds of tag-like maps to sci-fi co-op rpg-lite maps.
Thinking back on it Wc3 probably had more custom maps that tried to escape the setting than the ones that tried to stay true to it.

A modding community can really make a game last longer.
It's dead though. The only remaining question is what HBS did wrong.
 

eXalted

Arcane
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1djq5LE.jpg


Seriously, what happened? And here I've been thinking of creating a UGC...

Oh, new UGC for Dragonfall today.
 

DeepOcean

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Seriously, what happened?
I think on part is that a kickstarter game won't ever have the same modding scene that of a NWN and it's millions users, the second major factor is that while the editor is easy to use, certain things are a fucking pain to do and absolutely unintuitive. There were a few dedicated modders but as soon as it was obvious how annoying it was to make simple things like stop bodies from vanishing(HBS fixed some of the annoying stuff but it was too late), many lost interest and the last thing you want is that first wave of modders losing interest. Same problem with D:OS, lesson to be learned: If you plan to have people modding your game and work for free, don't make them sweat too much.
 

eXalted

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Messages
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the second major factor is that while the editor is easy to use, certain things are a fucking pain to do and absolutely unintuitive.
I've only watched some tutorials and saw that you can't paintbrush the floor tiles - you have to copy-paste the blocks to cover the floor. Why is it so unintuitive?

I think the whole convertion to Dragonfal ruined a lot of UGCs as many of the were unfinished or only Act I, and the moment that they modified the engine, the mod creators had to remake a lot of their content.

Kind of sad though, a lot of great talent on the scene.
 
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Mod scenes in new RPGs (Shadowrun, D:OS...) are pretty underwhelming so far. (I know it's early to say this.)

Well, actually I'd like to see that some company release a dedicated "Construction Kit (or Set)" like the old days. (HBS? Larian? Obsidian? ...inXile?)

I don't think you will see much activity or quality in the modding scene in these time and day when making your own game is easier than ever.
 

Dreaad

Arcane
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Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
:what:
Never thought I would read that someone thinks modding is dying...

As for SSR really the tool set has to be more flexible for it to really go off. I'm sure there are hundreds of people who could easily reuse the basic combat/stat system creating almost any sci-fi setting imaginable, from post apocalyptic to neo - steampunk - gothic dystopia. As mentioned though the difficulty with art assets, the lack of script extender and poor transition from version to version scared away most of the talent. Modding is a large enough commitment without having to worry about the developers accidentally wiping out your last 6 months of work through lazy support.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
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MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
Yeah, sadly I think HBS stays FAR FAR away from us (of which I can understand).

But if we possibly do a codex fundraiser for this (and we collect A LOT) that might get some attention....

:troll:
Untill they actually read the forums and go WHAT IN THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT!??!! WHAT IN.. OH MY GOD...
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The Codex: if you have them as your fans, be prepared for an intense love-hate relationship.
The Codex is like that woman you gladly have an affair with but hide from everyone you know because oh god hasn't anyone taught her any manners and why is she trying to discuss that age-old topic again I thought we were through wih this, no I don't give a fuck about what is an RPG Jesus Christ that bitch is insufferable
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
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The Codex: if you have them as your fans, be prepared for an intense love-hate relationship.
The Codex is like that woman you gladly have an affair with but hide from everyone you know because oh god hasn't anyone taught her any manners and why is she trying to discuss that age-old topic again I thought we were through wih this, no I don't give a fuck about what is an RPG Jesus Christ that bitch is insufferable
crazy in the head, crazy in bed
 
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
... modding (especially in its traditional cRPG context) in general is collapsing on itself, starting with the fact that the original core cRPG audience consisted heavily of professionals who were heavily involved in computing (which is why they owned computers, fundamentally a fringe professional device, to begin with), resulting in a bottleneck of amateur talent that broke the moment PCs became mainstream entertainment devices first and foremost.

Dedicated toolkits like those released by InterPlay or Bioware's Neverwinter Nights delayed this process by turning modding into a more accessible extension of the hobby, but now most companies take a dedicated stance against people tampering with their software or IPs. Then there's the huge glut of official content in the market that suppresses demand for fan-made content for all except the largest and most popular franchises (ergo, Elder Scrolls). Even then, only about 10% of the audience uses them with any degree of regularity.

It's not a one-sided process. After all, if the glut is getting bigger, then so is the overall size of the market and the number of consumers in it (who might use mods), but overall the economic process is pitted against modding.
 
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JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Bullshit, as long as a game manages to attract a modding scene, it will last practically forever. This is most obvious in the most popular strategy game series: the Paradox games, which have always been modder friendly and have many mods being made for them, occasionally going so far that Paradox hires modders to create spinoff games (like with that Magna Mundi fiasco), and the Total War series where the fan community is still trying to make Creative Assembly improve the mod support of their new games, and modders are actively trying to find ways to change more things in the game, analyzing the code. Mods are still made for Rome and Medieval 2, which are games from 2004 and 2006 respectively, and the fanbase is large enough for these to have lots of players.
There are some other games around that have a strong modding scene thanks to easy-to-use mod tools, and thanks to the uniqueness of the games. Thief has a pretty solid fanbase that has been working with DromEd for over a decade, and over the years there were fan missions that surpassed even the original games in level design. And there are still new people coming to the party, releasing their first FM ever, it's not just the old guys who've been at it for years making these things. And the game is from, what was it, 1998? And then there's The Dark Mod, a modification of Doom 3 to recreate Thief gameplay on that more modern engine. Made by a couple of very dedicated modders who started out as DromEders, too. And there are a handful of people making fan missions for that project, too, as it has a very user-friendly level editor. Then there is the Tomb Raider Level Editor for Tomb Raider 4, which has a very active community that releases new level on a monthly basis, also for over a decade now. A lot of these level designers are women because for some reason, a lot of women love the Tomb Raider gameplay, and most of them don't have a very gaming or computer/programming related background. They're just people who really love one game, discovered the game has mod tools, and decided to play around with them. Not experts at computery stuff, just very dedicated fans.
Then there's the two Neverwinter Nights games, with the first one being more popular among modders than the second because the toolkit of the first is much easier to use. Personally, I fucking hate NWN's engine and a lot of the design decisions that went into it, but damnit, that has a FREAKING HUGE modding scene that is still active. Again, for a game that is older than a decade. The modding scene regularly holds content creation contests, there are some very high quality modules out there, some even made by people who just decided "Hey, I wanna make my own little RPG adventure, this modkit looks easy enough!".

Modding is FAR from dead. Once the mod scene for a game picks up and starts running, you can't stop it. It feeds itself, by releasing ever more great mods, inspiring new people to try it out too, by creating and releasing new custom content that everyone can use in their own mods, getting more and more competent with the modtools, with scripting, with the game engine itself, even with the game's code. The problem is getting it started. Once the modding scene gets started, it's there to stay. But first, the game needs to have a dedicated enough fanbase, or the mod tools have to be flexible enough to allow for easy module creation, and then the scene will grow by itself as modders grow more competent and offer easy starter guides for beginners.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
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Codex USB, 2014
JF hit the head on the nail. It's all about easy-to-use mod tools. I'd wager Divinity would have a good mod scene by now if the tools were just easier to use and more automated.
 

eXalted

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
1,234
The modding scene regularly holds content creation contests
Easier tools and this. Harebrained Schemes have to create some contests or start popularizing some of the good UGC, this way a lot of people can get interested in the modding scene.
 

Kem0sabe

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Azores Islands
JF hit the head on the nail. It's all about easy-to-use mod tools. I'd wager Divinity would have a good mod scene by now if the tools were just easier to use and more automated.

I think the original game itself plays a big part in promoting a healthy mod scene, Paradox, Bethesda games, Bioware games and the like all have pretty dedicated fan bases. Most of the Larian fan base doesnt even know what the game world of the divinity games is called.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Well, with Bioware games, Dragon Age had a much, much, much less active mod scene than NWN and even NWN2. And even with the NWNs, some mods aren't set in the well-known D&D setting but in homebrew fantasy worlds.
 

SniperHF

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Aug 22, 2014
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I think the original game itself plays a big part in promoting a healthy mod scene, Paradox, Bethesda games, Bioware games and the like all have pretty dedicated fan bases. Most of the Larian fan base doesnt even know what the game world of the divinity games is called.

I've been plodding my way through the Div OS tools since release as mostly a novice and have to agree with Zed here. You can't even get a stand alone mod rolling without pasting in tons of files that should be automatically generated. It never would have rivaled the scene of some of the names mentioned in here but a lot of enthusiastic people quit within a few weeks due to this and the middleware issues. A big thing that gets a modding scene rolling is visual changes and that's all but flat out impossible in D:OS. It was basically never going to get off the ground.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
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Codex USB, 2014
Fallout games were made in the late 90s, with not so user-friendly modding tools, and the best mods are still in develloppement.
autism.
 

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