Shadowrun Shadowrun Returns Pre-Release Thread

[Mortmal]

Checkpoints? Hidden DRM? Forced Steam?

Guys. You KNOW what this means. It will motherfucking suck. Where is your kickstarted messiah now?

In Belgium, why?

Its kinda true, but for larian, its more a kickfinish than a kickstarter they already done a playable full game , its for improving it. The others are selling drm free dream of old school incline but you will end up with exactly the same mainstream things as usual , budget mainstream titles.

 

[evdk]

The others are selling drm free dream of old school incline but you will end up with exactly the same mainstream things as usual , budget mainstream titles.

We can't be sure. So far, the games seem to be flawed - but that's alright, all of the Codex favourites are. I reserve my judgment until I've actually played the games, since I've paid for them already anyway.

 

[Zed]

The most positive thing about KS, for us gamers, isn't the funding per se (might as well have private investors, I wouldn't care). What matters is the independence of developers. It's the publisher-producers going "We want der shootins behind der covers an der cinematic experience andde voice actings very guy okey."

EDIT: this post was rather retarded. obviously it's the funding which causes independence. but you know what I mean.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah. As long as we are not getting 6 hour interactive movie CoD clone shovelware it's all good.

 

[Grunker]

The most positive thing about KS, for us gamers, isn't the funding per se (might as well have private investors, I wouldn't care). What matters is the independence of developers. It's the publisher-producers going "We want der shootins behind der covers an der cinematic experience andde voice actings very guy okey."

EDIT: this post was rather retarded. obviously it's the funding which causes independence. but you know what I mean.

The most important thing for me is that the games I want developed are being developed. That's what I care about.

I've never seen Kickstarter as the magic solution to the industry's problems which others apparantly have.

 

[Zed]

The most positive thing about KS, for us gamers, isn't the funding per se (might as well have private investors, I wouldn't care). What matters is the independence of developers. It's the publisher-producers going "We want der shootins behind der covers an der cinematic experience andde voice actings very guy okey."

EDIT: this post was rather retarded. obviously it's the funding which causes independence. but you know what I mean.

The most important thing for me is that the games I want developed are being developed. That's what I care about.

I've never seen Kickstarter as the magic solution to the industry's problems which others apparantly have.

It has opened a new, small, and for us codexers important market segment. I guess no-one can be sure whether or not this segment is stable and viable in the future.

 

[Liston]

They did negotiate for the DRM-free base game with Microsoft. They offered it during the campaign. So either they knew and didn't tell or made promises without knowing the particulars of their license agreement. Either way is at the very least foolish.

You know this as a fact? Do you work at HBS or M$? Could you share the exact specifics with us?

There is only a 2 ways this could have happened:

1. They negotiated licensing terms before offering DRM-free version and kept quiet about them until now to mislead people during kickstarter campaign.

2. They are fucking morons and they offered IP they didn't license, running their business like a bunch of amateurs (Jordan Weisman is an entrepreneur for more than 30 years).

Their campaign sure is full of misunderstandings: the amount of money they said is needed, "hidden" stretch goal for isometric 2D and now this. Those could all be result of bad communication (from a person who is in this business for more than 30 years) but I find it kind of funny how all those misunderstandings resulted in them earning more money (of course that doesn't prove anything but it is funny nonetheless).

 

[Gozma]

This shit is close enough that I just want to judge it as a game... so fucking release it and begin the New RPG Gauntlet of Death that will play out over the next couple of years.

 

[tuluse]

There is only a 2 ways this could have happened:

1. They negotiated licensing terms before offering DRM-free version and kept quiet about them until now to mislead people during kickstarter campaign.

2. They are fucking morons and they offered IP they didn't license, running their business like a bunch of amateurs (Jordan Weisman is an entrepreneur for more than 30 years).

Their campaign sure is full of misunderstandings: the amount of money they said is needed, "hidden" stretch goal for isometric 2D and now this. Those could all be result of bad communication (from a person who is in this business for more than 30 years) but I find it kind of funny how all those misunderstandings resulted in them earning more money (of course that doesn't prove anything but it is funny nonetheless).

Or
3. They didn't fully understand the fine print of the license agreement and were recently "educated"

4. The license agreement was ambiguous and/or gave Microsoft power to impose limitations at a later date

5. They were retarded and thought people would be ok with this arrangement were they got exactly what they funded and not a single sprite more DRM free.

 

[Liston]

Or
3. They didn't fully understand the fine print of the license agreement and were recently "educated"

4. The license agreement was ambiguous and/or gave Microsoft power to impose limitations at a later date

5. They were retarded and thought people would be ok with this arrangement were they got exactly what they funded and not a single sprite more DRM free.

3. So they were even bigger morons who didn't consult lawyers about licensing terms, not even amateurs can be this retarded.

4. Possible. But why didn't they disclose that they were fucked so hard by M$ (maybe they liked it)? It would at least give them some sympathy points in this mess. It could be bad communication.

5. Why would they even bother to promise DRM free version if they thought that it isn't important to people? But again possible and hilarious in a Forest Gump kind of way.

 

[Jaesun]

The point you are missing is that initially M$ agreed for them to do a Shadowrun game (and it was only a $400,000 game at the start) and could be DRM free. Then as the KS went along they promised a second city, also DRM free. All of this they are providing. It probably wasn't until later that they approached M$ to do a second DLC and provides sales numbers as well as projected sales that M$ then had some solid data and then told them yes, you can do a 2nd DLC, but you have to use DRM.

But anyways we could speculate until the end of time. Not one single person here knows the actual facts. Not me. Not you. No one, but HBS and M$.

THE #1 lesson we have learned now (and this is a good thing) is to ask any Kickstarter where the Developer does NOT own the Licence to the game, that we ask the Developer if future expansions/DLC's will require DRM or not. And make them accountable to that.

 

[Shevek]

I was very upset by this at first. I emailed HBS and asked for a refund. They offered one but asked that I read the update first. I probably will grudgingly stick with the game because I have simmered down a bit since then. I guess their excuses worked.

Still, I can't help but think that this could have been avoided with more openness. If HBS would simply have stated what the situation was concerning DRM and M$ from the outset and kept folks apprised, I do not think many would be crying foul.

The thing that upsets me even more about HBS is them running out of funds. Their original funding goal was pretty small. They chose to go partial 3D and up production values in other ways once they approached 2 mil. Frankly, I would have prefered a deeper 2D game (which is what they were originally shooting for) than a prettier but less feature rich title. Imagine a crisp 2D title with an actual matrix, proper saving, weapon mods, varied ammo types, etc... Ah well...

 

[Liston]

The point you are missing is that initially M$ agreed for them to do a Shadowrun game (and it was only a $400,000 game at the start) and could be DRM free. Then as the KS went along they promised a second city, also DRM free. All of this they are providing. It probably wasn't until later that they approached M$ to do a second DLC and provides sales numbers as well as projected sales that M$ then had some solid data and then told them yes, you can do a 2nd DLC, but you have to use DRM.

But anyways we could speculate until the end of time. Not one single person here knows the actual facts. Not me. Not you. No one, but HBS and M$.

THE #1 lesson we have learned now (and this is a good thing) is to ask any Kickstarter where the Developer does NOT own the Licence to the game, that we ask the Developer if future expansions/DLC's will require DRM or not. And make them accountable to that.

I'm not claiming that I know what happened, but I'm not writing a research paper nor am I judging them in court. Making decisions and forming opinions based on partial information is inevitable in day to day life. For example I didn't back them because I didn't like their hidden stretch goals (and tablets), and it just so happens that it was a good decision because I would be really disappointed with recent events. Was it a decision based on facts? Of course not, it could just as easily go without all this bullshit (whoever is at fault). And whatever is the truth they are still vague as fuck, again this doesn't prove anything but I don't like it and that is is more than enough for me not to trust them unless they prove me wrong.

I agree with you on the lesson learned, It would never cross my mind to consider license ownership with kickstarters without all of this. I'm guessing that there are a few other lessons that we will learn about kickstarter the hard way in the next few years. I just hope that this drama doesn't influence kickstarter negatively (I don't think that it will, but who knows).

 

[Sam Ecorners]

so is anyone gonna remove the incline tag now?

 

[tuluse]

They chose to go partial 3D

what

 

[evdk]

so is anyone gonna remove the incline tag now?

Make a thread in Site Feedback.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Everyone who makes a Kickstarter tells you that you're not actually getting 'investor' status, you are backing, that's it. It is basically a pre-order. You aren't entitled to change anything. By all means, ask for your money back, but don't feel as if HBS have to bend to your every whim.

I'm looking forward to this, and I'm not expecting it to be a C&C-heavy RPG like Project Eternity or Torment. I'm interested to see their own take on the RPG genre. As for Steam, give me a fucking break. Are people still throwing their toys out of the pram because of Steam?

 

[Ulminati]

They chose to go partial 3D

what

2d backgrounds, 3d characters instead of sprites. Also some invisible 3d geometry on the backgrounds to handle occlusion and lighting. (Actually looks pretty nifty. Check the level editor walkthrough).

 

[Jaesun]

The backgrounds are a 2D tile-set IIRC.

 

[tuluse]

Yeah, I just had a moment of dumbassery. Nevermind.

 

[DalekFlay]

There is only a 2 ways this could have happened:

1. They negotiated licensing terms before offering DRM-free version and kept quiet about them until now to mislead people during kickstarter campaign.

2. They are fucking morons and they offered IP they didn't license, running their business like a bunch of amateurs (Jordan Weisman is an entrepreneur for more than 30 years).

Their campaign sure is full of misunderstandings: the amount of money they said is needed, "hidden" stretch goal for isometric 2D and now this. Those could all be result of bad communication (from a person who is in this business for more than 30 years) but I find it kind of funny how all those misunderstandings resulted in them earning more money (of course that doesn't prove anything but it is funny nonetheless).

Or
3. They didn't fully understand the fine print of the license agreement and were recently "educated"

4. The license agreement was ambiguous and/or gave Microsoft power to impose limitations at a later date

5. They were retarded and thought people would be ok with this arrangement were they got exactly what they funded and not a single sprite more DRM free.

6. They didn't think of Steam as DRM, or at least DRM that would upset anyone.

That seems to happen a lot with developers.

 

[Dedup]

I'm not too upset regarding the DLC Steam bullshit but having to redownload the whole game to get updates is ass. I'm not a programmer so maybe I'm missing something, but why can't they just make patch files like they used to do? Are updates really so much easier to do on Steam?

Now the DRM on DLC and hiding the Microprose issue is sure a dick move.

Now please excuse me while I fap to the fantasy of Microprose resurrecting itself with the Shadowrun license.

 

[Excidium]

I'm not too upset regarding the DLC Steam bullshit but having to redownload the whole game to get updates is ass. I'm not a programmer so maybe I'm missing something, but why can't they just make patch files like they used to do? Are updates really so much easier to do on Steam?

Pirate releases of steamworks games like Skyrim and Borderlands 2 all have standalone updates anyway. I doubt it's that much work for the developers themselves. it's more of a legal question I believe, they can't release the patches outside of steam but they can offer the latest version of the DRM-less game.

 

[CappenVarra]

You have a blob of bits and let people download it. Then you make changes in some of the bits - anybody sane will tell you to have people download only the changed bits and merge them with the existing ones. The alternative makes as much sense as counting from 1 to 10 and restarting from 1 when told to count up to 11. Sure, it gets NWN2-levels of boring when you have dozens of changes that have to be applied in exact order, but that's just about the only thing this whole invention called "scripting" can automate for you. So yeah, "re-download the whole game to get updates" pretty much translates to either "fucking magnets, how do they work? also, computers" or "fuck you for not using Steam"

 

[Kem0sabe]

Plus, with the apparent shortage of cash and development time running out to the release date, i very much doubt the release version of the game will be bug free and devoid of very frequent updates/fixes. Having to redownload the game countless times while they fix it is not my idea of fun.