Shadows of Doubt - detective stealth game set in "fully simulated" sci-fi city

[Longes]

Guy made an entertaining video, though wtf is up with that last case?


I shall love this game.
Have been hyped since the first day.

The game is hella buggy, that's what.

 

[Ivan]

to all the betas beta testing

 

[Tyranicon]

Ehhhh, this one's rough.

It's pretty buggy and lacks polish, performance isn't super great, and the AI is so completely braindead it's a wonder why they even bothered.

Corpo constable comes into a room where I literally stabbed some poor dude into a coma. There's blood everywhere, and I'm still holding the straight razor (that's floating above my hand because bug).

"Don't linger."

Cop turns around and walks out the door.

Wut.

Also when I say stabbed into a coma, it's because people apparently can't die, or at least I haven't figured out a way to permanently kill someone. Also everyone can use guns but you. You're just allergic to firearms.

I know this type of game isn't about combat, but why even have it if you're gonna arbitrarily ban the player from an entire class of weapon?

Everything else seems very interesting.

 

[Lyre Mors]

I know this type of game isn't about combat, but why even have it if you're gonna arbitrarily ban the player from an entire class of weapon?

Can someone please complain to the developer about this? Absolutely absurd.

 

[Tyranicon]

I know this type of game isn't about combat, but why even have it if you're gonna arbitrarily ban the player from an entire class of weapon?

Can someone please complain to the developer about this? Absolutely absurd.

There's already multiple threads about this on the steam forum with the largest one being the most active discussion there.

I'd wager the devs are aware of this. If they're smart, they'll just give the player a riot gun with rubber bullets.

I'm assuming you can't kill anyone because it ruins their procgen murder mystery.

Which is really lame.

 

[Zombra]

Note that a long thread on Steam forums about adding guns doesn't mean everyone thinks it's a great idea; it means there's a lot of conversation around it. At a glance there are plenty of good arguments against on there too.

In short, not having guns was a very deliberate design decision to focus gameplay on stealth and evasion. I can't see into the universe next door but it seems to be working. And yes, there are players who are just punching everything instead so why not give them guns? Eh, maybe years from now that would make sense but personally I'm glad that all developer time is devoted to providing the intended experience which has nothing to do with them.

I also agree that it's jarring to be shot in the face when almost anyone doesn't like you and being unable to respond in kind. Honestly I feel the answer here is to remove guns from random NPCs, and turn it into less of a shooter, not more of one.

What's really fascinating to me is how cordial and united the Discord community is (in general, and on this issue in particular). The folks who come on angry about no rocket launchers quickly get talked into playing the game for its strengths, not its weaknesses.

 

[Lyre Mors]

Just to clarify, of course I understand the choice to get the firearms out of the players hands was completely intentional. I just don't feel it's a great idea. The firearms should be in the player's hand, only to be used incredibly sparingly so that when the time comes that you do use them, the act is exceedingly impactful. The game isn't combat-centric, I understand that, but if there's going to be combat in the game and enemies are going to be able to use guns, then it's only logical (and more fun imo) that the player gets to use them too with a host of caveats and drawbacks.

It's not going to stop me from playing the game when it's released, but I would prefer the option was implemented.

 

[Tyranicon]

I just want to completely ignore the detective aspect and play this as a retropunk Thief.

It has all the elements for it, just need to wait for someone to mod in the appropriate features.

I can see this becoming a big game just for mod potential alone.

 

[Beowulf]

[...]
In short, not having guns was a very deliberate design decision to focus gameplay on stealth and evasion.

I get where you're coming from and I wouldn't like to see the game turn more into shooter or murder-hobo simulator, but e.g. Thief gave the player a lot of means to be deadly and yet the game design itself lean into stealth and evasion gameplay.

 

[Zombra]

I get where you're coming from and I wouldn't like to see the game turn more into shooter or murder-hobo simulator, but e.g. Thief gave the player a lot of means to be deadly and yet the game design itself lean into stealth and evasion gameplay.

Absolutely. It may be interesting to know that Shadows of Doubt went through a lot of evolution to get where it is - if the dev started over and built it from the ground up it would look substantially different. It was actually going to have player guns originally, which you can kind of see in how combat and security systems play out; but it was then decided that this didn't serve the vision. With a little imagination it's not hard to picture gun proliferation with severe, severe consequences for ever using them which could be a back door to pushing players away from using them. In this case the dev decided to use the front door and simply prohibit them. After thinking it over and reading the last few posts above I still think the forward move is to simply make 95% of the guns and ammo in the game disappear.

 

[KIss My Ass]

Looks like minecrap.

*pisses on the head of every person looking forward to this*

Useless weasels.

 

[Modron]

Yeah you guys should play seriously good games like Dead Island 2. **snickers**

 

[kangaxx]

I have a few hours on the current build and have been impressed with how well it's coming together. All the gamestopping bugs I encountered from the previous demo have been fixed. Framerate is smooth, maybe not 120FPS but very playable. My only gripe so far is that citizens still get violent VERY quickly. I was trying to cuff a suspect and a guy who ran a nearby hot dog stand shot me in the face with a shotgun literally the same second I clicked the button.

They're just reflecting the breakdown of law and order experienced in the real world!

 

[HoboForEternity]

I get where you're coming from and I wouldn't like to see the game turn more into shooter or murder-hobo simulator, but e.g. Thief gave the player a lot of means to be deadly and yet the game design itself lean into stealth and evasion gameplay.

Absolutely. It may be interesting to know that Shadows of Doubt went through a lot of evolution to get where it is - if the dev started over and built it from the ground up it would look substantially different. It was actually going to have player guns originally, which you can kind of see in how combat and security systems play out; but it was then decided that this didn't serve the vision. With a little imagination it's not hard to picture gun proliferation with severe, severe consequences for ever using them which could be a back door to pushing players away from using them. In this case the dev decided to use the front door and simply prohibit them. After thinking it over and reading the last few posts above I still think the forward move is to simply make 95% of the guns and ammo in the game disappear.

Yeah everyone is too trigger happy, just have guns only available to select npcs ad law enforcement.

 

[Tweed]

Looks like shit.

 

[Alfgart]

This game is absolutely phenomenal and when the biggesst bugs get fixed this will be an all time classic

 

[Gostak]

[...] If they're smart, they'll just give the player a riot gun with rubber bullets.

The dev went for a publisher ... (well I dunno how hard it is to get a game on steam as a newcomer ... Hmm, seems to be super easy:
https://partner.steamgames.com/steamdirect )

Bah, I guess I will hold back on buying this at least for now, as well.
https://gameluster.com/early-access-review-shadows-of-doubt-theres-not-been-another-murder-yet/
"[...] In its current state, the game gets repetitive after only three cases. This is because each case is procedurally generated rather than being written by a team of creative writers, so they are very basic. After the tutorial case, I found that each murder investigation is just a simple case of identifying the fingerprints. There’s no story to follow, no motive behind the murder. In The Dead of Night, we could go through the culprit’s emails and find that they were hired to murder the victim. However, in the rest of the game there is nothing like this. Nor is there any form of letters about meeting somewhere. The NPCs have relationships, but they’re all the same. All couples have the same emails from their partner asking them to pick up milk on the way home, the same poems hidden in their bedside drawer, and the same notes left behind reminding them of the passcodes to their computer or safe. [...]"

Why would you not at least put some templates in to vary it up and have some people not have certain things, quite the way to break immersion in an immersive sim ... Geez if it's really that bad at the moment it would be quite the letdown!

 

[Zombra]

Gostak Eh, that reviewer is wrong. They didn't play long enough to get a murder case with no fingerprints evident at the scene. What would they have done then? Huh??

 

[Harthwain]

Note that a long thread on Steam forums about adding guns doesn't mean everyone thinks it's a great idea; it means there's a lot of conversation around it. At a glance there are plenty of good arguments against on there too.

It also worth noting it could be a bunch of same dudes repeating stuff at each other. This is one of a few reasons why Steam threads are a mess.

Just to clarify, of course I understand the choice to get the firearms out of the players hands was completely intentional. I just don't feel it's a great idea. The firearms should be in the player's hand, only to be used incredibly sparingly so that when the time comes that you do use them, the act is exceedingly impactful. The game isn't combat-centric, I understand that, but if there's going to be combat in the game and enemies are going to be able to use guns, then it's only logically (and more fun imo) that the player gets to use them too with a host of caveats and drawbacks.

True. You could give the player access to non-silenced guns that fire a single round, are extremely inaccurate and cost absurd amount of money to obtain on black market. And that's not getting into the legal aspect of things from the in-game perspective. Such as only the law enforcement having access to modern weapons (being able to fire more than one and being more accurate at longer ranges than two feet away) and having access to weapons for NPCs to be forbidden (including the player).

 

[sosmoflux]

You're supposed to be solving crimes not making crimes boys

 

[Tyranicon]

You're supposed to be solving crimes not making crimes boys

One is vastly more fun than the other.

When I heard that the game had fully simulated worlds where you can hunt serial killers, my first thought was of course being the serial killer.

I guess I'll have to wait for mods for that to happen.

 

[kangaxx]

You're supposed to be solving crimes not making crimes boys

One is vastly more fun than the other.

When I heard that the game had fully simulated worlds where you can hunt serial killers, my first thought was of course being the serial killer.

I guess I'll have to wait for mods for that to happen.

Either concerning on a personal level or encouraging for the vampire game. I choose the latter.

 

[Gostak]

As I said before I was hyped for this since I got wind of it, reason being that I desperately waited for such a game
to be made for a long long time now (as everyone I had ideas, like for a Sentient-like whodunnit with plenty of AI agents but ...).

So, my slightly grounded reservations of this turning out to be another EA buggy disappointment like
Objects in Space were not enough to hold me back from possibly blowing some cash.

Man, am I glad I gave in!

This is it! Maybe this finally gets this genre going (vampire hunting in Slaves to Armok II never got close to this thing here).

Warning, you do need a good system, though.
But it was a long time since I ran into my first bug moment (falling through the floor while running around) and albeit
most of the current crop of cases do get way too easy and repetitive some at most run the risk of the latter and
you can have lots of fun in this despite of it.

That is because this is at least as much a trespasser/ burglary / stalker/ creepy, voyeuristic snoop simulator than it is
a "detective" one (no matter how much some of its fans like this or not).

It could do with more content but the daily routines and characteristics and interactions the NPCs have should
be a joy to any old fart that liked such stuff in Ultima VII for instance.
If you've got a liking for procgen stuff and the artstyle getting it now is absolutely recommendable.

The game in its current state shows that the dev cannot utterly fail (unless there some "regressive" forced update with no way back)
with this and I will be having fun with this while it still develops.

People already check what one can tinker with and with cheat engine and the like you can make this generate massive cities with 1500-2000 inhabitants ...
Being able to explore these feels insane. :D

 

[Gostak]

Guy made an entertaining video, though wtf is up with that last case?
[...]

Have another one (at least the start, well or the very end) but more so informative.
It might feel bought at start, but I doubted that in the end.
Spoilers maybe of course.

 

[Lemming42]

Hmmm. I like the idea but, playing it now, the NPCs let the whole thing down. Not only in the very basic conversations you can have with them, but in their total lack of awareness. Everything you do feels inconsequential - there's hardly any guards or security anywhere, so breaking into the phone router thing of a building is a case of literally just walking through the nonexistent lobby and straight down the stairs to it, impeded by no-one. At most, there might be a camera you can walk right under. There really needs to be dedicated guards and staff at various posts in these buildings.