People News SHOCKER: Chris Avellone leaves Obsidian Entertainment

[Jasede]

No bro, it really is more fun to read "x frowned" than "x didn't approve of her words".

It all depends on the context; the former might be better suited in one situation, and the latter in another. But stating that one is de facto better—I assume that’s what you mean by “fun”—than the other is arbitrary.

Of course like every guideline you need to know when to break it.

Rules and guidelines need to make sense to begin with. This one is notoriously famous for being bad writing advice that bad writers share with future bad writers. But it’s short and can fit on a bumper sticker, so at least there’s that.

And in games you're really doing yourself a disservice when you try to "tell" too much that could have more easily been shown. Why are you using a medium that combines art, writing and sound when you aren't going to make use of all its elements?

The last time I checked, Planescape: Torment was still popular on the Codex.

All right, let's say you're right.

How do you know this? Are you a good writer? Or an experienced critic? Which works do you like that tell rather than show? What context makes telling appropriate? How do you decide this? Which bad writers have shared this? Which good writers do you like that generally tell more or equally as much as they show?

Yes, PS:T is popular - it is in fact my #1 game. But you can't tell me there isn't a problem when everyone I am trying to get to play it quits because the mortuary doesn't engage them. It's either very niche in its appeal or the beginning could have been - I hate to use that word - more streamlined to be more accessible.

I do feel like the best parts if PS:T constantly show rather than tell. The way Ravel treats you. The ending cutscene. The tone of voice of the voice actors. Deionarra's theme. Most item descriptions that tell you about the world indirectly rather than spewing exposition.

 

[Zep Zepo]

PS:T ....yeah the first part is the part that *kills the game if you don't get it.

Zep--
*killed it for me because... *BORIING*

 

[Ninjerk]

No bro, it really is more fun to read "x frowned" than "x didn't approve of her words".

It all depends on the context; the former might be better suited in one situation, and the latter in another. But stating that one is de facto better—I assume that’s what you mean by “fun”—than the other is arbitrary.

Of course like every guideline you need to know when to break it.

Rules and guidelines need to make sense to begin with. This one is notoriously famous for being bad writing advice that bad writers share with future bad writers. But it’s short and can fit on a bumper sticker, so at least there’s that.

And in games you're really doing yourself a disservice when you try to "tell" too much that could have more easily been shown. Why are you using a medium that combines art, writing and sound when you aren't going to make use of all its elements?

The last time I checked, Planescape: Torment was still popular on the Codex.

All right, let's say you're right.

How do you know this? Are you a good writer? Or an experienced critic? Which works do you like that tell rather than show? What context makes telling appropriate? How do you decide this? Which bad writers have shared this? Which good writers do you like that generally tell more or equally as much as they show?

Yes, PS:T is popular - it is in fact my #1 game. But you can't tell me there isn't a problem when everyone I am trying to get to play it quits because the mortuary doesn't engage them. It's either very niche in its appeal or the beginning could have been - I hate to use that word - more streamlined to be more accessible.

I do feel like the best parts if PS:T constantly show rather than tell. The way Ravel treats you. The ending cutscene. The tone of voice of the voice actors. Deionarra's theme. Most item descriptions that tell you about the world indirectly rather than spewing exposition.

Obviously the mortuary is the problem.

 

[Bigg Boss]

The only problem with PS:T is the atrocious combat.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

I know its probably an age old discussion for you guys but can someone enlighten me what the problem with the Mortuary is supposed to be? Played PS:T a few months ago (not finished yet, got distracted) and I didn't even think about it. Too much exposition or what? I found the mortuary pretty fascinating, just like bascially everything about the game world. I went into PS:T knowing it was a a text heavy game and that was that. If you don't like reading and have no attention-span you shouldn't play the game. Its like going into Wizardry and complaining about the combat or going into Dragon Age and complaining about the gay sex.

 

[Zep Zepo]

I know its probably an age old discussion for you guys but can someone enlighten me what the problem with the Mortuary is supposed to be? Played PS:T a few months ago (not finished yet, got distracted) and I didn't even think about it. Too much exposition or what? I found the mortuary pretty fascinating, just like bascially everything about the game world. I went into PS:T knowing it was a a text heavy game and that was that. If you don't like reading and have no attention-span you shouldn't play the game. Its like going into Wizardry and complaining about the combat or going into Dragon Age and complaining about the gay sex.

Too much text and the text (and the skull) was boring as fuck and tedious.

Zep--

 

[Ulrox]

I hate to use that word - more streamlined to be more accessible.

Its not Planescape there's something wrong with. It's the people's who couldn't complete it's, attention span, that needs an upgrade. I dont think Planescape:Torment would be planescape:torment if you made it more accessible and streamlined, unless you had 50 million dollars worth of voice acting and cinematics.

 

[Irenaeus II]

I know its probably an age old discussion for you guys but can someone enlighten me what the problem with the Mortuary is supposed to be? Played PS:T a few months ago (not finished yet, got distracted) and I didn't even think about it. Too much exposition or what? I found the mortuary pretty fascinating, just like bascially everything about the game world. I went into PS:T knowing it was a a text heavy game and that was that. If you don't like reading and have no attention-span you shouldn't play the game. Its like going into Wizardry and complaining about the combat or going into Dragon Age and complaining about the gay sex.

Warning: You are being trolled

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

I know its probably an age old discussion for you guys but can someone enlighten me what the problem with the Mortuary is supposed to be? Played PS:T a few months ago (not finished yet, got distracted) and I didn't even think about it. Too much exposition or what? I found the mortuary pretty fascinating, just like bascially everything about the game world. I went into PS:T knowing it was a a text heavy game and that was that. If you don't like reading and have no attention-span you shouldn't play the game. Its like going into Wizardry and complaining about the combat or going into Dragon Age and complaining about the gay sex.

I was the same. PS:T was my first encounter with the PS setting. By the time I left the mortuary, the hooks were in really deep.

 

[Excidium II]

Guess it's been a while but I don't remember it being tedious, and I have very low tolerance for walls of text. Maybe the scenario just had me hooked p. hard, the visuals alone hinting this isn't your run of the mill BSB CRPG

 

[Ismaul]

The Mortuary was one of the best openings for a game IMO. Mysteries, challenged expectations, wierdness, characters that jump off the screen. I knew the game was for me right then and there. (I was young and impressionable, but zombies that were nice? some you could talk to? extracting stuff from their mouths (or was it their head)!? ultimately empathizing with those things you thought you had to kill? That's the good shit right there!)




The off-putting stuff for me was the D&D system, it was really incongruent with the gameplay. There's a game about talking and mysteries, and I have to care about THAC0, classes, multiclassing limitations, etc.? I'd rather the character system was about beliefs, personality and relationships that build over time, with maybe skills, starting blank. But then that system baggage was mandatory with the setting (and a selling point).

 

[Ninjerk]

It helps that TNO, at first glance, doesn't look like the generic amnesiac Everyman that you end up playing for most of the game.

 

[Ismaul]

"He looks how I feel inside."

 

[Lady_Error]

I didn't like the Mortuary because it created a false first impression of what PS:T is really like. I thought it was too morbid and uninteresting compared to the later game.

 

[RK47]

Mortuary needs to be populated with high pitched voiced nurses with multitude of colorful hairs and carry a giant syringe while wearing a nurse outfit, preferably with an elegant top and skirt before it becomes palatable to the mainstream crowd.

TNO also needs to be younger cause immortals don't age. Also, Morte needs to be more of a familiar cat/dog/dragon or mini-succubi instead of a floating skull that has no distinguishing features.
I don't know about you, but many people would be triggered easily by a flying, talking skull.

 

[Ninjerk]

Mortuary needs to be populated with high pitched voiced nurses with multitude of colorful hairs and carry a giant syringe while wearing a nurse outfit, preferably with an elegant top and skirt before it becomes palatable to the mainstream crowd.

TNO also needs to be younger cause immortals don't age. Also, Morte needs to be more of a familiar cat/dog/dragon or mini-succubi instead of a floating skull that has no distinguishing features.
I don't know about you, but many people would be triggered easily by a flying, talking skull.

Perhaps people would be more engaged if Morte made TNO kill 10 of those zombies before advancing the MQ. There could be a little map in one of the topmost corner with a little radar showing which shambling NPCs are the zombies.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there should be something near the edge of the screen that tracks how many zombies the player has killed so they know when the first quest is done.

 

[RK47]

They shd have co-op to have multiple incarnation of TNO working together with different movesets in the 2016 remake.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Mortuary needs to be populated with high pitched voiced nurses with multitude of colorful hairs and carry a giant syringe while wearing a nurse outfit, preferably with an elegant top and skirt before it becomes palatable to the mainstream crowd.

TNO also needs to be younger cause immortals don't age. Also, Morte needs to be more of a familiar cat/dog/dragon or mini-succubi instead of a floating skull that has no distinguishing features.
I don't know about you, but many people would be triggered easily by a flying, talking skull.

Bah! You are stopping halfway through. Planescapte: Torment should take place in high school and begin with TNO waking up in the nurse's office. Morte should obviously be a cute girl.

 

[Ninjerk]

They shd have co-op to have multiple incarnation of TNO working together with different movesets in the 2016 remake.

Perhaps one of the classes can be a monk class where he can learn kung fu movesets.

 

[Gondolin]

Mortuary needs to be populated with high pitched voiced nurses with multitude of colorful hairs and carry a giant syringe while wearing a nurse outfit, preferably with an elegant top and skirt before it becomes palatable to the mainstream crowd.

TNO also needs to be younger cause immortals don't age. Also, Morte needs to be more of a familiar cat/dog/dragon or mini-succubi instead of a floating skull that has no distinguishing features.
I don't know about you, but many people would be triggered easily by a flying, talking skull.

Another fascinating insight into the Azn mind.

 

[Forest Dweller]

I still remember snapping a guy's neck through dialogue and getting my first flood of memories. First hint that the game was going to be more than a typical rpg experience.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Mortuary needs to be populated with high pitched voiced nurses with multitude of colorful hairs and carry a giant syringe while wearing a nurse outfit, preferably with an elegant top and skirt before it becomes palatable to the mainstream crowd.

TNO also needs to be younger cause immortals don't age. Also, Morte needs to be more of a familiar cat/dog/dragon or mini-succubi instead of a floating skull that has no distinguishing features.
I don't know about you, but many people would be triggered easily by a flying, talking skull.

Bah! You are stopping halfway through. Planescapte: Torment should take place in high school and begin with TNO waking up in the nurse's office. Morte should obviously be a cute girl.

Are you guys ripping off weaboo game tropes?

I've never played one so those jokes go over my head.

 

[RK47]

I still remember snapping a guy's neck through dialogue and getting my first flood of memories. First hint that the game was going to be more than a typical rpg experience.

Nowadays we just press F to pay respects.

 

[Ninjerk]

I still remember snapping a guy's neck through dialogue and getting my first flood of memories. First hint that the game was going to be more than a typical rpg experience.

Nowadays we just press F to pay respects.

Ya, I get a flood of feels. Doesn't matter that they won't let me leave the gravesite without paying my respects.

 

[Trip]

Rules and guidelines need to make sense to begin with. This one is notoriously famous for being bad writing advice that bad writers share with future bad writers. But it’s short and can fit on a bumper sticker, so at least there’s that.

As someone who's been part of the jury in over a dozen amateur writing competitions, I can guarantee you that those writers needed to hear exactly "Show, don't tell". It's the go-to rookie mistake. They either lack the imaginative tenacity to burrow down beyond the first, cliche way of describing something, or they think any reader will immediately imagine what's in the author's head in its fullness, irrespective of the vague, enervated locutions on the page.

With a little experience, a writer catches on to the contrast between showing and summarizing, or pulling the camera a little bit. Any of the following could work in the appropriate structure: "She fell into a screaming fit." or "She screamed and screamed and screamed." or "She screamed at him, the fucking moldy bastard." or ""You fucking moldy bastard!" she screamed." or just have the line of dialogue without the speech tag. But I've found that to develop an intuition for "telling" you usually first need a very strong habit of imagining the stuff as "shown" and then decide to pull back and switch to fast-forward summary mode.

(Btw, sorry to be Stannis Grammateon for a second, but "notoriously famous" is a tautology...)