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People News SHOCKER: Chris Avellone leaves Obsidian Entertainment

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
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I feel uneasy speculating about Avellone's misdeeds and future when he's capable of reading it. Can't the moderation block him from those kind of threads? :hmmm:
Why? He's a grownup and a professional creative.
 
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I liked the Mortuary. If there's a problem with the opening of PS:T, it isn't the early text. It's that new players take a while to adapt to one of the game's great strengths - that the setting and backstory are doled out in many snippets of information from a massive number of sources. This is good writing - one of the reasons why PS:T is so great is that every one of this massive number of NPC backstories, regions, in-game folk tales and dialogues is part of a thematically and narratively cohesive whole. But for a new player, it takes some time before their mind adjusts to the fact that these aren't all random info dumps, even if they've been told what to expect. It's like reading a large but high quality pulp novel, like a Stephen King, where it takes 50 or so pages before you just 'enter the zone' and lose yourself.

I don't think that developers should avoid that style of writing, if anything it should be emulated more often. But it may help to consciously introduce the player to how the writing style works. This runs contrary to the instinct that many developers have, to add more early combat in an attempt to liven things up - instead, they should make the starting area more dialogue-focussed, but also self-contained. Flavour text from different NPCs and items should add up to tell a series of short overlapping stories, that add up to the story/theme of that starting area, like a miniature model of the writing method for the rest of the game. That way, players only have to make it through the first 10-15 minutes before that 'ahh...I get it' moment arrives. Then by the time they leave the starting area, their minds will have shifted out of the 'scan flavour text for quest relevant info, dump the rest' mode, and they'll be able to process the world's overlapping narratives.

I think the problem that MCA used to raise regarding the Mortuary, and which crpg developers have often raised regarding starting areas generally, is a case of right diagnosis, wrong treatment. Developers think 'more combat', because film design, not game design, has taught them to equate combat with action. What they overlook is that in crpg gaming, the opposite is true. Filler/standard-mob combat isn't action, it's the bit between the moments of action. Unless you're going to hit the player with a challenging boss fight straight off the bat (in which case, I salute your bravery and will remember to donate when I see you destitute and begging on the street corner), increasing the amount of combat in the starting area has the exact opposite effect of that which the developer is trying to achieve.

An excellent case example is Irenicus' Dungeon, in BG2. This was specifically inserted to give the game a fast action beginning. And it was nearly universally reviled, for doing the exact opposite - all that context-less combat just added up to a plod that players had to drag themselves through in order to start the 'real game'. And developers have kept repeating that same mistake ever since - the starter zones for both KoTOR games, NWN2, MotB, and many many more. And on every occasion, the game was saved by the sheer relief at encountering a far better designed 'starting area' when the player gets to the 1st planet/town, which invariably does everything a starting area should. The few I can think of that get it right are VtmB (brief tutorial with plenty of narrative context throughout, then a well-designed starting hub), WL2 (by skipping the whole idea of a walled-off tutorial, and then making the battles in the first area relatively short and tactical), and FO:NV.
 
Joined
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Hey, Chris, if you're reading this, please be the lead of your own thing. I don't know how economically viable that is, but everyone wants you doing your own cool project, not just being a third wheel in seemingly all of them. :negative:
 

Jasede

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Azrael, "universally reviled"? How can you make such a statement?

For what's it worth, I think Irenicus' dungeon is fantastic. A great intro dungeon with a lot of substance that teaches you a lot about the story - without being too wordy about it. The encounters were very satisfying.


I mean, I get that you didn't like it - but universally reviled? I've been reading here for, well, over twelve years now, two of which I lurked, and I don't remember many complaints leveled at that dungeon.


If I had to make a personal list of good and bad intro areas it would go something like this:

Good: BG 2, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Bloodlines (not counting the tutorial), Fallout (if you consider Shady Sands the beginning), Lands of Lore (the woods are well-designed, with lots of secrets and appropriate combat), IWD
Bad: Fallout 2, Kotor 2, PS:T (it's well-written but I do feel it stops the flow of the game. You can spend three hours in there! - like KOTOR 2, except in KOTOR 2 the length came from trash fights, in PS:T it came from cool writing), NWN 2, IWD 2 (ugh!), Arcanum
 

Zep Zepo

Titties and Beer
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual
Joined
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Looks like in the future he'll be "re-spoking" his "bike" alright.

Zep--
 
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Jasede
There had been mods removing it for a reason. People generally dislike open world games beginning with a long, unskippable, lineal arena. They say the same thing about Peragus in KoTOR 2 and Taris from KoTOR 2. Sure it's fun when you beat it for the first time, but most find having to beat it every time you want to replay the game a slog.
 

Jasede

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Perhaps, but in contrast to Taris, the BG 2 dungeon can be completed rather quickly. Certainly faster than it takes to create a character in Morrowind. (But this does require some familiarity with the game.)
 

stony3k

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Perhaps, but in contrast to Taris, the BG 2 dungeon can be completed rather quickly. Certainly faster than it takes to create a character in Morrowind. (But this does require some familiarity with the game.)
It was still too boring and linear, especially on the 10+th play through. I don't think it was bad, per se, but I feel all RPGs should give you the option of skipping the tutorial area after the first time through. Even if the tutorial area is small, it can get tedious because you already know everything the area is supposed to teach you.
 
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Character creation in Morrowind takes like 3 minutes if you know what you are doing, I'm certain you can't complete that dungeon, with all the items, quests etc. in that time.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Can't disagree with that - they should probably have made that dungeon the tutorial and let you skip it.

Edit: 3 minutes? It sure feels like 10 or more. There's a lot of forced waiting.

Wait for the guy to talk. Wait for the guard. Select a race. Walk. Wait for the dude to talk. Select, wait, select, wait, select, wait, confirm, walk, load area, take ring, transition, go through wikipedia, leave. I guess it might just feel longer due to all that waiting; never measured it.
 
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Can't disagree with that - they should probably have made that dungeon the tutorial and let you skip it.

Edit: 3 minutes? It sure feels like 10 or more. There's a lot of forced waiting.

Wait for the guy to talk. Wait for the guard. Select a race. Walk. Wait for the dude to talk. Select, wait, select, wait, select, wait, confirm, walk, load area, take ring, transition, go through wikipedia, leave. I guess it might just feel longer due to all that waiting; never measured it.

May be 10, but I doubt it's more. Sure, there is a bit of forced walking and talking but Irenicus dungeon has 2 unskippable cutscenes, one of which is pretty long.
 

Bigg Boss

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Morrowind intro takes so fucking long because of the load times. Mainly story fag stuff too as I believe you chaps put it. I do think BG2 intro is quite a bit longer. BG2 needs it I think to teach more complicated game mechanics. Does drag ass on replays though.
 
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Morrowind intro takes so fucking long because of the load times. Mainly story fag stuff too as I believe you chaps put it. I do think BG2 intro is quite a bit longer. BG2 needs it I think to teach more complicated game mechanics. Does drag ass on replays though.

No it doesn't. BG 2 had a dedicated tutorial separate from the main game. Everyone's bitchy elf wizard Xan appears there.
 

Bigg Boss

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Morrowind intro takes so fucking long because of the load times. Mainly story fag stuff too as I believe you chaps put it. I do think BG2 intro is quite a bit longer. BG2 needs it I think to teach more complicated game mechanics. Does drag ass on replays though.

No it doesn't. BG 2 had a dedicated tutorial separate from the main game. Everyone's bitchy elf wizard Xan appears there.

I believe I may be confusing the beginning of the game with the tutorial. Irenicus is the part I'm thinking of. I don't recall the actual tutorial.
 
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Morrowind intro takes so fucking long because of the load times. Mainly story fag stuff too as I believe you chaps put it. I do think BG2 intro is quite a bit longer. BG2 needs it I think to teach more complicated game mechanics. Does drag ass on replays though.

No it doesn't. BG 2 had a dedicated tutorial separate from the main game. Everyone's bitchy elf wizard Xan appears there.

I believe I may be confusing the beginning of the game with the tutorial. Irenicus is the part I'm thinking of. I don't recall the actual tutorial.

Yeah I know, I was pointing out that Irenicus dungeon didn't have to teach new players anything because the game had an actual tutorial.
 

Forest Dweller

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Avellone's choice of avatar can actually tell us a lot. Like Durance, he was betrayed by his god (Obsidian) and left to die. However, he didn't die, but instead joined forces with a new leader (Brian Fargo). Together, they waged their war against Woedica (Bethesda/Bioware/etc) and then proceeded to tell the world that the gods (i.e. major publishing houses) aren't real, thus paving the way for the indvidual (indie studios).

He told us all of this without saying a word. That's one of the fundamental rules of good writing - show, don't tell. That's how skilled he is.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
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Avellone's choice of avatar can actually tell us a lot. Like Durance, he was betrayed by his god (Obsidian) and left to die. However, he didn't die, but instead joined forces with a new leader (Brian Fargo). Together, they waged their war against Woedica (Bethesda/Bioware/etc) and then proceeded to tell the world that the gods (i.e. major publishing houses) aren't real, thus paving the way for the indvidual (indie studios).

He told us all of this without saying a word. That's one of the fundamental rules of good writing - show, don't tell. That's how skilled he is.
I wonder if he goes around the inXile offices calling Obsidian a bunch of whores.
 

Xor

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Morrowind intro takes so fucking long because of the load times. Mainly story fag stuff too as I believe you chaps put it. I do think BG2 intro is quite a bit longer. BG2 needs it I think to teach more complicated game mechanics. Does drag ass on replays though.

No it doesn't. BG 2 had a dedicated tutorial separate from the main game. Everyone's bitchy elf wizard Xan appears there.

I believe I may be confusing the beginning of the game with the tutorial. Irenicus is the part I'm thinking of. I don't recall the actual tutorial.

Yeah I know, I was pointing out that Irenicus dungeon didn't have to teach new players anything because the game had an actual tutorial.
I don't remember BG2 having any kind of standalone tutorial. In fact, I can't find the option after firing the game up.
 

stony3k

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I don't remember BG2 having any kind of standalone tutorial. In fact, I can't find the option after firing the game up.
BG1 was the tutorial
:rpgcodex:
 

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