Should Bloodlines 2 be a Soulslike?

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

According to the tabletop rules, werewolves utterly demolish vampires. No amount of rolling should save you. Have to do what the game does and use the environment or get lucky with a grenade like Nines did.

Damn, we should tell that to the Bloodlines developers who let Nine Rodriguez come up on top of his fight with a werewolf.

Also, not sure what sort of argument is this even supposed to be.
What makes you think an "impossible to win" fight wouldn't be possible to implement with a From-styled combat, exactly?
That's more or less how they open all their games, incidentally.

 

[Cricket McBangle]

According to the tabletop rules, werewolves utterly demolish vampires. No amount of rolling should save you. Have to do what the game does and use the environment or get lucky with a grenade like Nines did.

Damn, we should tell that to the Bloodlines developers who let Nine Rodriguez come up on top of his fight with a werewolf.

Nines is a much more powerful vampire than the Fledgling could ever get, carries grenades, has a few points in Celerity, killed a very young and insignificant Werewolf, and had to sit out most of the ending for the game.

What makes you think an "impossible to win" fight wouldn't be possible to implement with a From-styled combat, exactly?
That's more or less how they open all their games, incidentally.

This whole time you have not been talking about the actual combat you find in From Software games. What you’re actually doing is using FromSoftware combat as some ambiguous nebulous thing to mean whatever you want and not what it actually is, which is not appropriate for a Bloodlines game.

Honestly it sounds like you get your opinions from YouTube.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Nines is a much more powerful vampire than the Fledgling could ever get, carries grenades, has a few points in Celerity, killed a very young and insignificant Werewolf, and had to sit out most of the ending for the game.

Even pretending to ignore that "teh fledging" is a fucking power house by the end of the game (with several maxed out disciplines too), given that developers took a lot of liberties in making the player run up that progression curve with a motorbike, that doesn't really invalidate the point I made, does it?

And yet you ignored it anyway to go into ANOTHER fucking rant about how I'm not filling you up on the details.
What about trying to fucking play what you are even attempting to comment about, for a change?

This whole time you have not been talking about the actual combat you find in From Software games. What you’re actually doing is using FromSoftware combat as some ambiguous nebulous thing to mean whatever you want and not what it actually is, which is not appropriate for a Bloodlines game.

Because discussing the details of something that is not going to happen is beside the point, you freaking illiterate, obsessive-compulsive tard.
And HOW can I even BEGIN to bother going into the specifics of "how I'd do it" when all you've been doing for pages is freaking out like a fucking sperg at the mere suggestion, immediately resetting the conversation?
Not to mention every time I went into some specific details (like the fact that From already made TWO games that do not rely on stamina management and rolling as main source of evasion) you just overlooked it, ignored it or dismissed it without a proper counter-argument only to repeat the same fucking shit over and over.

Then you go around pretending I should be the one that "needs an easy mode in media literacy", too, in a baffling lack of self awareness.

 

[Cricket McBangle]

Also, not sure what sort of argument is this even supposed to be.
What makes you think an "impossible to win" fight wouldn't be possible to implement with a From-styled combat, exactly?
That's more or less how they open all their games, incidentally.

Nines is a much more powerful vampire than the Fledgling could ever get, carries grenades, has a few points in Celerity, killed a very young and insignificant Werewolf, and had to sit out most of the ending for the game.

Even pretending to ignore that "teh fledging" is a fucking power house by the end of the game (with several maxed out disciplines too), given that developers took a lot of liberties in making the player run up that progression curve with a motorbike, that doesn't really invalidate the point I made, does it?

And yet you ignored it anyway to go into ANOTHER fucking rant about how I'm not filling you up on the details.
What about trying to fucking play what you are even attempting to comment about, for a change?

This whole time you have not been talking about the actual combat you find in From Software games. What you’re actually doing is using FromSoftware combat as some ambiguous nebulous thing to mean whatever you want and not what it actually is, which is not appropriate for a Bloodlines game.

Because discussing the details of something that is not going to happen is beside the point, you freaking illiterate, obsessive-compulsive tard.
And HOW can I even BEGIN to bother going into the specifics of "how I'd do it" when all you've been doing for pages is freaking out like a fucking sperg at the mere suggestion, immediately resetting the conversation?
Not to mention every time I went into some specific details (like the fact that From already made TWO games that do not rely on stamina management and rolling as main source of evasion) you just overlooked it, ignored it or dismissed it without a proper counter-argument only to repeat the same fucking shit over and over.

Then you go around pretending I should be the one that "needs an easy mode in media literacy", too, in a baffling lack of self awareness.

Uhhh just go into detail? Were you waiting for my permission?


Permission granted.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I wasn't "waiting for your permission". It just wasn't a relevant part of the conversation because we never even began to talk about minute details when you were just rejecting the idea in general.

What "details" are you even looking for, anyway?
Do you want me to illustrate the basics of how these games work? The targeting? The optional locking system? Switching spells and buffs? Making use of gadget? The idea that each weapon should have a distinctive moveset? Attacks with some weight behind?
Having hitboxes that have a vague resemblance of making sense instead of some floaty mess?

Or do you want me to explain the FACTUAL statement that several From Software games traditionally close their introductory section with a "faux boss fight" where you are way over your head and you're supposed to lose?
Which in fact makes the complain about the werewolf funny in context.

To be perfectly honest I still have no idea of what you are even rejecting exactly, aside for a generic "WAAAH, IT'S NOT TRUE TO THE ORIGINAL BLOODLINES" you keep repeating since the first page.

By any chance, do you happen to think that borrowing from that style of combat would imply having bonfires and respawning enemies every time you rest? Because it wouldn't, if that's your worry.
You can borrow some subsystems without having to necessarily embrace all the other.

 

[Chainsaw Gutsfuck]

Disingenuous statement at best. Dark Souls is affected by the character stats just as much as it is from the player's hand-eye coordination. Things like the amount of damage you inflict, the amount of damage you absorb, your HP, iframes, etc. are ALL tied to stats, equipment, occasional buffs, etc. Exactly like in Bloodlines.

But to say this is to misunderstand the argument. The point is that Bloodlines doesn't require hand-eye coordination (not to any important degree anyway), not that Dark Souls doesn't have stats (it does).
The way feats, skills and attributes work in BL is basically a modified version of the ruleset from the tabletop game. I already gave the example of how avoiding enemy attacks is based on the character's defense feat and not on the player's reflexes. Surely there is no need to explain why this is incompatible with soulsborne combat.
There isn't much to discuss beyond that. You want Bloodlines 2 to play more like Souls, and that's fine. But you will just have to accept the fact that some of us would rather have a Vampire the Masquerade game that plays like Vampire the Masquerade and not a From Software title.

 

[dacencora]

You do not do attacks in Ocarina of Time in the same manner you do attacks in Dark Souls. In Ocarina of Time you tap the attack button for combos, Z-targeting gives you some different attacks, and you hold the attack button for your spin attack which you can charge up. You've also got a quick spin attack you can do by manually spinning the joystick and pressing the attack button. You might think the combat is the same because they've both got lock-ons, and you've got weapons in both, but the way you do things is not the same at all. I'd guess the biggest inspiration on Souls combat was Elder Scrolls Oblivion, which also has direction plus attack button combo for different attacks, and also has a stamina meter thing although in Oblivion it's nowhere near as important since it doesn't govern you simply being able to attack. Oblivion I'd guess was a very intentional influence, if Ocarina of Time was, it was probably more incidental. I mean, you've got a lock-on and a dodge mechanic in Devil May Cry games too, but nobody would say Devil May Cry is just expanded Ocarina of Time combat.

For some reason Souls fans get really angry about comparisons to Zelda, but it’s not an insult to the series at all. Zelda has fun combat, and so does Dark Souls. Zelda kind of pioneered the “lock-on, slow, dodge, sword and shield” 3rd-person combat. Many games were inspired by it. Probably most TPP action games, but unlike a lot of them, Dark Souls is very similar with some major additions (a stat system, more weapon types, stamina). Nobody thinks Devil May Cry plays like OoT because it doesn’t lmao. Devil May Cry is fast-paced where you kind of juggle enemies in the air. Both OoT and Dark Souls are much slower and heavily utilize a shield. BOTW is more fast-paced and has the Perfect Dodge mechanic that feels a lot different from OoT or Dark Souls. I’m not sayin that Dark Souls and BOTW feel similar because they don’t, but OoT and Dark Souls absolutely do. Oblivion might have been an inspiration, but I certainly have my doubts. Oblivion’s combat was pretty mediocre.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Oblivion’s combat was pretty mediocre.

That's putting it mildly.

 

[jungl]

No, souls like combat doesn't mesh well with the rpg pnp systems or the lore. It doesn't make sense for a vampire to kill a werewolf. The werewolf should have shit ton of stamina and health to absorb anything the vamp can throw at it outside of high level disciplines and even then the vamp is meat to the grinder if against more then one wolf.

I rather have a redemption style sequel by larian then a fps for bloodlines 2.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Jesus Christ, people are ACTUALLY trying to leverage the angle "NO, combat in the game should be bad because vampires are not good fighters".

It's also not clear why the player should necessarily fight a werewolf, of all things.

 

[Delterius]

Nines is a much more powerful vampire than the Fledgling could ever get, carries grenades, has a few points in Celerity, killed a very young and insignificant Werewolf, and had to sit out most of the ending for the game.

If that's the case then why didn't Nines just solo the Camarilla and the Sabbat out of LA?

Really it's all about using the environment and getting lucky, which is the case with both werewolf killings in bloodlines.

And with all due seriousness, you could add a Dark Souls boss that is unkillable by normal means and likely to two-shot you. That's a werewolf encounter right there. The silliness of making bloodlines into dark souls combat is because it's out of the blue and only natural to people who are the typical souls fan.

Zelda has fun combat

Yeah saying Bloodlines could be more like Zelda is not even a troll.

into the specifics of "how I'd do it"

is it 'more like dark souls'

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Jesus Christ, people are ACTUALLY trying to leverage the angle "NO, combat in the game should be bad because vampires are not good fighters".

We're saying VTMB2 shouldn't be a soulslike because we'd rather have a rounded experience with meh combat than a game that focuses solely on combat which isn't what VTM is about.

Also, some of us just don't like soulslike combat and the games really offer nothing besides the combat which is why they're so polarizing. I don't like VTMB combat, yet the game wasn't ruined for me despite this because it's a much more rounded experience.

 

[Pink Eye]

And with all due seriousness, you could add a Dark Souls boss that is unkillable by normal means and likely to two-shot you.

Sure, but most of those "unkillable" bosses that Fromsoft throws at you in first hour. Can be defeated. It just takes a lot of patience and cautious play to whittle them down. In an actual RPG if the DM throws an unkillable boss at you, chances are, you're screwed.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

And with all due seriousness, you could add a Dark Souls boss that is unkillable by normal means and likely to two-shot you.

Sure, but most of those "unkillable" bosses that Fromsoft throws at you in first hour. Can be defeated. It just takes a lot of patience and cautious play to whittle them down. In an actual RPG if the DM throws an unkillable boss at you, chances are, you're screwed.

It's just another take on JRPG design. You grind on the boss until you memorize its mechanics and beat it, not much different than a JRPG where you go on grind on mobs until you're strong enough to beat a boss.

 

[Pink Eye]

I don't know about that take, but it's the ethos of action games in general. If your mechanics are good. You can get away with a lot of crap. In an RPG like Age of Decadence. If you try to beat an enemy who has better stats than you, better equipment, and has back up. Chances are. You're going to eat dirt irregardless of how fast you can press the b button.

 

[Delterius]

And with all due seriousness, you could add a Dark Souls boss that is unkillable by normal means and likely to two-shot you.

Sure, but most of those "unkillable" bosses that Fromsoft throws at you in first hour. Can be defeated. It just takes a lot of patience and cautious play to whittle them down. In an actual RPG if the DM throws an unkillable boss at you, chances are, you're screwed.

indeed, perhaps the problem with from is not any sort of innate magical thing about 3d action games but rather that they just don't make storyfag games like bloodlines

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't know about that take, but it's the ethos of action games in general. If your mechanics are good. You can get away with a lot of crap. In an RPG like Age of Decadence. If you try to beat an enemy who has better stats than you, better equipment, and has back up. Chances are. You're going to eat dirt irregardless of how fast you can press the b button.

I disagree that it applies to all action games, enemies in Souls games feel extremely robotic and are designed to be learned.
You could have someone beat their head at e.g., Ninja Gaiden Black for 40 hours and still get slaughtered and learn nothing.

 

[Delterius]

the choice is clear

the only developer who can tackle a bloodlines werewolf fight is capcom's monster hunter team

from will write item descriptions and yoko taro will create the dialogue scenes

square can spend 17 billion dollars creating the city environments or whatever it is they like to do

 

[Pink Eye]

I disagree that it applies to all action games, enemies in Souls games feel extremely robotic and are designed to be learned.
You could have someone beat their head at e.g., Ninja Gaiden Black for 40 hours and still get slaughtered and learn nothing.

That is a good point about Ninja Gaiden. I never managed to beat any of them actually even through I tried my ass off. In regards to enemies being robotic in Dark Soul game, I agree. Enemies always have a pattern that you do need to learn beforehand. It's just that from game to game the pattern gets complicated with all these gay mechanics they keep adding to the enemy.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

You do not do attacks in Ocarina of Time in the same manner you do attacks in Dark Souls. In Ocarina of Time you tap the attack button for combos, Z-targeting gives you some different attacks, and you hold the attack button for your spin attack which you can charge up. You've also got a quick spin attack you can do by manually spinning the joystick and pressing the attack button. You might think the combat is the same because they've both got lock-ons, and you've got weapons in both, but the way you do things is not the same at all. I'd guess the biggest inspiration on Souls combat was Elder Scrolls Oblivion, which also has direction plus attack button combo for different attacks, and also has a stamina meter thing although in Oblivion it's nowhere near as important since it doesn't govern you simply being able to attack. Oblivion I'd guess was a very intentional influence, if Ocarina of Time was, it was probably more incidental. I mean, you've got a lock-on and a dodge mechanic in Devil May Cry games too, but nobody would say Devil May Cry is just expanded Ocarina of Time combat.

For some reason Souls fans get really angry about comparisons to Zelda, but it’s not an insult to the series at all. Zelda has fun combat, and so does Dark Souls. Zelda kind of pioneered the “lock-on, slow, dodge, sword and shield” 3rd-person combat. Many games were inspired by it. Probably most TPP action games, but unlike a lot of them, Dark Souls is very similar with some major additions (a stat system, more weapon types, stamina). Nobody thinks Devil May Cry plays like OoT because it doesn’t lmao. Devil May Cry is fast-paced where you kind of juggle enemies in the air. Both OoT and Dark Souls are much slower and heavily utilize a shield. BOTW is more fast-paced and has the Perfect Dodge mechanic that feels a lot different from OoT or Dark Souls. I’m not sayin that Dark Souls and BOTW feel similar because they don’t, but OoT and Dark Souls absolutely do. Oblivion might have been an inspiration, but I certainly have my doubts. Oblivion’s combat was pretty mediocre.

Where are you getting anger from?

Also, while I enjoyed Dark Souls, Dark Souls is the only one of these kinds of games from FromSoftware I've played. So it's not exactly like I'm some hardcore Dark Souls fan. I think I got it for free when I had Xbox Live years ago.

That all said, no, Ocarina of Time and Dark Souls don't even kind of play like each other. You might look at them and be like: Sword, shield, lock-on system, moving out of the way of attacks....yeah, yeah, yeah, Dark Souls and OoT are like the same thing. But they're not. The way you do things in the two games is not the same. The way you attack in Dark Souls and the way you attack in Ocarina of Time are different. I think you're maybe making a bit too much out of the lock-on, which was pretty ubiquitous in '90s action games and while western developed ones would start moving away from it in the 2000s (especially if it had guns) the Japanese didn't. I'm not saying it's like OoT, OK, because it's not either; but WCW vs NWO: World Tour is the year before OoT and you've got a lock-on, and there's a evasion roll there too. I get what you're saying with the lock-on and stuff, but the way you actually do moves in the two games when you're playing it isn't the same. The big kind of thing with OoT was how the camera worked in that 3D space when you did lock-on to an enemy.

Oblivion's combat is total shit. But, it is this game where pressing different directions with the attack button gives you different attacks, and it is this game where there's a stamina system that figures into your attack. Dark Souls takes that system, makes it good, and makes you actually have to think about your stamina (which you're meant to do in Oblivion, but it actually doesn't fucking matter at all) by having the stamina system figure into all your attacks and blocking. It's like someone looked at Oblivion's combat system and asked themselves how they could make it not shit. Funnily, looking at western RPG combat, and thinking they're total shit is part of why Dragon's Dogma came about.

 

[Cricket McBangle]

I wasn't "waiting for your permission". It just wasn't a relevant part of the conversation because we never even began to talk about minute details when you were just rejecting the idea in general.

What "details" are you even looking for, anyway?
Do you want me to illustrate the basics of how these games work? The targeting? The optional locking system? Switching spells and buffs? Making use of gadget? The idea that each weapon should have a distinctive moveset? Attacks with some weight behind?
Having hitboxes that have a vague resemblance of making sense instead of some floaty mess?

Or do you want me to explain the FACTUAL statement that several From Software games traditionally close their introductory section with a "faux boss fight" where you are way over your head and you're supposed to lose?
Which in fact makes the complain about the werewolf funny in context.

To be perfectly honest I still have no idea of what you are even rejecting exactly, aside for a generic "WAAAH, IT'S NOT TRUE TO THE ORIGINAL BLOODLINES" you keep repeating since the first page.

By any chance, do you happen to think that borrowing from that style of combat would imply having bonfires and respawning enemies every time you rest? Because it wouldn't, if that's your worry.
You can borrow some subsystems without having to necessarily embrace all the other.

Yeah but Bloodlines is similar to a first-person shooter and a third-person brawler, not a third-person hack n' slash dungeon crawling JRPG. There wasn't anything inherently wrong with the aiming in Bloodlines; the game was just filled with stupid things like having a 3-hit combo that would send your opponent flying away from you on the second hit, rendering your third hit useless. That's why Yakuza makes more sense principally than Dark Souls. As far as attacks having some weight, yes, not but I don't know why if I want the combat in Bloodlines 2 to not feel as floaty and janky as it was in 1, I need a bunch of other stuff from FromSoft games to come with it.

You could switch spells and buffs fine with the mouse-scroll wheel so again, I'm not sure what FromSoft games do in this regard that would improve the Bloodlines experience. Was it optimal? No, it definitely could be improved but I'm not sure how FromSoft games gives us a path to how that would improve it. Even in Sekiro, you could only equip one special art at a time. FromSoft games have some pretty terrible UX decisions that they still haven't fixed and this triggers Souls fans because they think "noooo switching your weapons on the fly to activate another ability you want to use is totally how these games work reeeeeeeeeeeeee git gud." Nioh 2 has better combat and better UX than the Souls games and but I still wouldn't point to Nioh 2 as the point of inspiration for how a Bloodlines game should function in combat.

Do you remember the Werewolf boss fight in Bloodlines? It was pretty late in the game and you couldn't kill it, you had to trick it to get smooshed by some heavy doors or run around for several minutes. Not a great part of the game overall but that's why the Werewolf mention and Souls Boss fights are not at all similar. A werewolf or anything as the "you're supposed to die" boss fight to introduce players to the idea that death is not final death but a feature in Bloodlines or Bloodlines 2 gives the wrong impression. 3 out of the 5 clans that are launching with Bloodlines 2 are Toreador, Malkavian, and Ventrue which you should tell you what kind of experience they were prioritizing. Nines and the Fledgling getting by the skin of their teeth was acknowledged to be extremely lucky and showed even the devs understood how a fight between a Vampire and Werewolf would go down even if they were pushing it.

Why would I want to regularly make use of gadgets or weapons as a Vampire? I'm a Vampire. Anything my Vampire can do should be more interesting than anything any gadget or any weapon can do. It just doesn't make sense because Dark Souls, Elden Ring, Bloodborne, and Sekiro rely on understanding how to use your weapons. This is probably what that inXile employee was trying to say about having JA2 combat for Wasteland 3.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Jesus Christ, people are ACTUALLY trying to leverage the angle "NO, combat in the game should be bad because vampires are not good fighters".

We're saying VTMB2 shouldn't be a soulslike because we'd rather have a rounded experience with meh combat than a game that focuses solely on combat which isn't what VTM is about.

Except we already said more than once that NO FUCKIN ONE ever asked to turn the entirety of a hypothetical Bloodlines 2 into a "soulslike" (despise what the dumb re-edited thread title may suggest) nor anyone ever asked to NOT make it a "rounded experience". We even conceded that it could comfortably keep playing mostly like predecessor (first person included) for anything that isn't strictly related to the melee combat itself.
I don't know how many fucking times it needs to be repeated and what a fucking problem some of you may have with basic reading comprehension at this point, but it seems that no amount of repetition seems to be ever enough to let you take a grasp on the notion.

Also, some of us just don't like soulslike combat

Yeah, I know, some of you have baffling shitty taste and weird ideological preconceptions, not to mention there's a bunch of people on the Codex who couldn't spot and recognize good mechanical design if it was sitting on their chest and taking a dump.
What can you really do about it.

You could have someone beat their head at e.g., Ninja Gaiden Black for 40 hours and still get slaughtered and learn nothing.

Ninja Gaiden is simply less forgiving with its timing. Then again NG is a pure action game and not an Action RPG, so it doesn't really give the player leeway to circumvent a challenge.

 

[Wesp5]

I'm a Vampire. Anything my Vampire can do should be more interesting than anything any gadget or any weapon can do.

This is basically how the old Bloodlines 2 team wanted to do the fighting, with stupid ideas like making the player throw firearms away once they are empty or having melee weapons break because you are too strong. While this might be a way to fight for some clans, I never liked that they were trying to force it on everybody! Why should my Toreador risk getting his beautiful shirt ripped or bloody in close combat when he could easily kill enemies from afar with Celerity in Matrix style ? The fighting should be up to the player and their clan!

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Yeah but Bloodlines is similar to a first-person shooter and a third-person brawler, not a third-person hack n' slash dungeon crawling JRPG.

It CLEARLY wasn't "similar to a first person shooter" in the moment you were playing the third person melee combat. Which is what this entire conversation was allegedly focusing on, despise the dumb attempts at deliberate misunderstanding.

There wasn't anything inherently wrong with the aiming in Bloodlines

Oh, there was PLENTY wrong with the aiming (and the stealth, and more in general the first person experience) in Bloodlines, but clearly that's NOT something that could be addressed by taking a third person game as reference. There would be plenty of better reference points for that, though.

That's why Yakuza makes more sense principally than Dark Souls. As far as attacks having some weight

It really doesn't. It's a one-vs-many brawler with a lot of focus on grappling, cinematic takedowns and contextual finishers. It's way less fitting alternative than anything From ever made with third person combat. I'm not even sure why you and Roguey keep bringing it up just because you both seem DESPERATE to come up with an alternate suggestion.
And this assuming we are both talking about "classic Yakuza" rather than the more recent switch to a JRPG-like turn-based system (or "menu-based combat", as I usually call that type of Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest-like combat).

You could switch spells and buffs fine with the mouse-scroll wheel so again, I'm not sure what FromSoft games do in this regard that would improve the Bloodlines experience.

I mean, they "can do" the exact same thing.
I don't really play Souls games with mouse and keyboard to begin with if I can help it, but if anything the direct comparison feel ironic, now that you mention it, because both titles have a very similar (and fairly cumbersome, all things consider) way to select and activate spells in a "rotation menu".

Nioh 2 has better combat and better UX than the Souls games and but I still wouldn't point to Nioh 2 as the point of inspiration for how a Bloodlines game should function in combat.

Well, I disliked both Nioh and its sequel A LOT, so we'll just have to disagree.
Even putting aside how much I disliked the games structurally and in terms of itemization (and boy, I FUCKING HATED both these things) I find the system way too convoluted for its own good, especially with all the stance-switching bullshit.

Do you remember the Werewolf boss fight in Bloodlines?

I do, It wasn't even "a boss". It was a puzzle where you had to outrun it until you had a chance to trick it into a trap.
No fucking reason you couldn't have the same exact mechanic in the hypothetical "Game with good combat" we were speculating about.

Why would I want to regularly make use of gadgets or weapons as a Vampire? I'm a Vampire.

You DID make use of equipment, gadgets and weapons in Bloodlines 1.
Not to mention in several circumstances you faced and bested several threats that for all intent and purpose should have been the sure death of a normal "fledging",
Why do you people keep moving the goalposts?

 

[Cricket McBangle]

I'm a Vampire. Anything my Vampire can do should be more interesting than anything any gadget or any weapon can do.

This is basically how the old Bloodlines 2 team wanted to do the fighting, with stupid ideas like making the player throw firearms away once they are empty or having melee weapons break because you are too strong. While this might be a way to fight for some clans, I never liked that they were trying to force it on everybody! Why should my Toreador risk getting his beautiful shirt ripped or bloody in close combat when he could easily kill enemies from afar with Celerity in Matrix style ? The fighting should be up to the player and their clan!

Was this one of the things you gave feedback on when you played the Slugg mission?

I could really see this not being a popular decision even if it was executed well.