Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind - King of Dragon Pass spiritual successor

[Norfleet]

You miss the point again. I said the gameplay mechanisms of KoDP wouldn't be the way they are today without Gloratha's influence, not that they couldn't be changed afterwards.

Well, the gameplay mechanisms of KODP are nothing new. At its core, you have the gameplay of something like Hammurabi, SRE, or BRE, then you've stapled on a a set of character-esque random events akin to games like LORD. We've had MUD-type games about this. This isn't the first time people have attempted to kitbash these concepts.

MUDs? Similar to King of Dragonpass? Now that's one sad comparison. Maybe you could be a bit more specific.

If I had to draw a comparison, I would say I felt it was most like Hammurabi or Barren Realms Elite meets LORD. You have what is essentially a countryblob simulator crossed with an early MUD-esque in which you encounter random things and interact with them via a set of choices, and something happens.

Academagia is oriented around a single character, though. Text-based sim games aren't altogether rare in and of themselves, and while I don't play that many games of the genre, I'd be surprised if there weren't some or even many that are better games than King of Dragon Pass in general (KoDP has some pretty derpy game mechanics).

One character, a nation of characters, you're reading too much into this. At its core, the game is one where you control a blob of stats in its journey through a series of random events that you interact with in an attempt to make it bigger and blobbier. This is a concept common to a lot of early MUD-esque type games, like LORD.

 

[Shaewaroz]

You miss the point again. I said the gameplay mechanisms of KoDP wouldn't be the way they are today without Gloratha's influence, not that they couldn't be changed afterwards.

Well, the gameplay mechanisms of KODP are nothing new. At its core, you have the gameplay of something like Hammurabi, SRE, or BRE, then you've stapled on a a set of character-esque random events akin to games like LORD. We've had MUD-type games about this. This isn't the first time people have attempted to kitbash these concepts.

MUDs? Similar to King of Dragonpass? Now that's one sad comparison. Maybe you could be a bit more specific.

If I had to draw a comparison, I would say I felt it was most like Hammurabi or Barren Realms Elite meets LORD. You have what is essentially a countryblob simulator crossed with an early MUD-esque in which you encounter random things and interact with them via a set of choices, and something happens.

Yea, the concepts are totally nothing new - you only have to go to the dawn of text based games and try to super glue 2 or 3 games together to get something even vaguely similar. An easier way to describe KoDP would be that mechanically it's the most unique game released in decades.

 

[tuluse]

No come on man. It's so similar to all those games where you encounter something, interact with them via a set of choices, and then something happens.

 

[Shaewaroz]

No come on man. It's so similar to all those games where you encounter something, interact with them via a set of choices, and then something happens.

You mean one of them wideo-games?

 

[Norfleet]

Yea, the concepts are totally nothing new - you only have to go to the dawn of text based games and try to super glue 2 or 3 games together to get something even vaguely similar. An easier way to describe KoDP would be that mechanically it's the most unique game released in decades.

I go back to the dawn of text games because it shows THAT THESE CONCEPTS ARE VERY, VERY OLD. That they aren't NEW, and when I was playing KODP, I didn't get the sense that I was experiencing a new kind of gameplay that I had never encountered before, I had the sense that this was a familiar set gloves with a new coat of paint on it. Maybe for you, who might have never experienced a myriad variety of BBS door games and telnet MUD-esques so numerous that you can no longer remember most of their names, this would have been a new experience, but to me, it was a set of familiar things arranged together. It was cool, but it was not new. And I only needed to to glue TWO games together. "Let's glue these two different types of game together" isn't a new concept, either, Japs have been doing that for ages. Probably is some Jap game just like this, too. I'm pretty sure I've heard of one like this before, where you're running a stat-block nation in a mythology-heavy world, managing a roster of stat-block characters you assign to various jobs while random occurrences periodically ask for you to make some kind of decision...the name escapes me, probably because it was entirely in moon-runes and I didn't actually play it because I'm not a weeaboo. Don't we have an LP of that somewhere?

 

[Karellen]

Academagia is oriented around a single character, though. Text-based sim games aren't altogether rare in and of themselves, and while I don't play that many games of the genre, I'd be surprised if there weren't some or even many that are better games than King of Dragon Pass in general (KoDP has some pretty derpy game mechanics).

One character, a nation of characters, you're reading too much into this. At its core, the game is one where you control a blob of stats in its journey through a series of random events that you interact with in an attempt to make it bigger and blobbier. This is a concept common to a lot of early MUD-esque type games, like LORD.

I'm yet to be convinced that the King of Dragon Pass was not highly novel in its approach. If you say that the game mechanics that it features largely existed before it, I have no beef with that, but I think it's disingenuous to describe KoDP as "oh well you put this into that and that's how you get KoDP, easy as pie!" If anything, I've always seen KoDP as an exercise in reduction rather than genre mixing.

For instance, the "random text-based story events you have to react to" thing actually happens in a lot of strategy games - the earliest I personally remember playing is Castles, but a simper version exists already in Defender of the Crown, and no doubt the concept already existed earlier. The thing is that in those games it was just an extra flourish. It was never anywhere close to being the main focus, whereas in KoDP it very much is - and in order to make that happen, KoDP had a whole lot of elements that are typical for strategy game removed, starting from the fact that you can't control battles and, more importantly, do not conquer territory. You could call it a management sim, only even for a management sim, KoDP has very little sim in it and the mechanics for it are kinda broken. The game's not really intended to be played through number-crunching, while in real management sims that's the whole point.

When I first played KoDP back when it was new, my initial and immediate impression of it was that it was a strategy game systematically pruned down to highlight the story events as the key game element. Now I have no idea if that's how they came up with the concept, but the end result is a society-building game in which the story event mechanic is blown way out of proportion compared to anything that came before it, and it all works because there's barely anything else there. "Text description: now choose from these four options" is like the oldest game mechanic imaginable, but if anything that makes it even more impressive that KoDP did something unique and practically unprecedented with it.

 

[Norfleet]

It was never anywhere close to being the main focus, whereas in KoDP it very much is - and in order to make that happen, KoDP had a whole lot of elements that are typical for strategy game removed, starting from the fact that you can't control battles and, more importantly, do not conquer territory.

Debatable. You don't really exert much low-level control over the fighting, but you do sort of have a level of involvement in them: You pick the overall tactical goals, which may or may not have an effect, although I certainly got the impression I was causing more deaths with my KILL AS MANY AS POSSIBLE choices, and your use of artifacts, which most certainly DOES have an effect (Raven Banner, anyone?). As for whether or not you "conquer territory", while there are no explicit provinces or cities to take over, you certainly DO acquire land: This is not dissimilar to other statblock country wargames like that Renaissance one, on the Compydore 64, whose name eludes me.

When I first played KoDP back when it was new, my initial and immediate impression of it was that it was a strategy game systematically pruned down to highlight the story events as the key game element.

When I first played KODP, my initial and immediate impression of it before I had even started playing it was, "Oh, hey, one of these, I haven't played one of these in ages, let's try this.". It was so NOT unique, to my old, jaded perspective, that I picked up precisely because it was a comfortable and familiar "One of these".

Now I have no idea if that's how they came up with the concept, but the end result is a society-building game in which the story event mechanic is blown way out of proportion compared to anything that came before it, and it all works because there's barely anything else there. "Text description: now choose from these four options" is like the oldest game mechanic imaginable, but if anything that makes it even more impressive that KoDP did something unique and practically unprecedented with it.

Unique? Unprecedented? You and I have both cited numerous precedents. KODP is firmly derivative. It's pretty and they wrapped it up nicely, but it's nothing strange that I haven't encountered before. It's not like some games I've encountered, where I went, "Oi, mate, what's this? I've never seen this before.". KODP was familiar, every element something I had seen before in a similar game, as well as different game. To me, I got the impression that someone had taken elements from a number of games both similar and different and kitbashed them together to form this new game, which, of course, is what making games is all about.

None of this prevents it from being a neat game, but to call this truly original, novel, and unique? Pushing it. To me, it's a "like X, but with some of Y, and a bit of Z". Case in point: I would never describe any future game as "like KODP" as my first point of comparison, because KODP is not the archetype of any element I would compare.

 

[Shaewaroz]

You still haven't named any game that is even remotely like KoDP. I'm sure you can do it, after all KoDP is just "one of these" games. LORD is a text-based grindy combat simulator with light RPG elements and Hammurabi just a game about planting crops and feeding people, so they don't qualify.

Quickly before your frail memory is completely wiped out by Alzheimer's.

 

[Karellen]

None of this prevents it from being a neat game, but to call this truly original, novel, and unique? Pushing it. To me, it's a "like X, but with some of Y, and a bit of Z". Case in point: I would never describe any future game as "like KODP" as my first point of comparison, because KODP is not the archetype of any element I would compare.

Well, the way I see it, KoDP deserves a whole lot of superlatives because there's a very clear and sensible idea as to what strategy games are supposed to be about going all the way back to Risk, and before that Chess and Go - moving units, defeating enemy units and controlling territory. And, as a matter of fact, making a traditional war game set in Glorantha would have been a natural choice because the first Glorantha product ever put out was a tabletop strategy game by the name of White Bear and Red Moon, which incidentally is where some of Glorantha's goofy bizarre stuff like the Crimson Bat comes from. And for all that, the game - which is about becoming King of Dragon Pass - isn't even a war game; you fight from time to time, but everything worth accomplishing is accomplished largely through diplomacy and magical ceremonies and made possible by resource management.

Like I said, I don't think the basic elements of KoDP were in themselves unique - how could they be? But I don't think you really appreciate how ballsy it was for to reduce the game to those particular elements. Basically, to even try to make a game like KoDP requires the conviction that you can pull off a strategy game in which all the conventional elements of a strategy game have been minimised or removed entirely and that you can bank on the story events to carry the game. It's basically saying, "well, why don't we make a Civilization game but take out the map exploration, city founding, unit moving and such and instead concentrate on the diplomacy scenes that are generally agreed to be the worst and silliest part of our game, when text-based games haven't been in vogue in a decade?" KoDP inspired future games not by establishing new mechanics, but by demonstrating that a strategy game based primarily on choose-your-own-adventure scenes is a whole lot of fun.

 

[Norfleet]

LORD is a text-based grindy combat simulator with light RPG elements

But at its core, it was about you, progressing from random event to random event, in which you would pick between two or more choices of things to do with no clue what would actually happen as a result.

Hammurabi just a game about planting crops and feeding people, so they don't qualify.

How little you grasp of its strategy. Yet, is not KODP, too, about planting crops and feeding people? Still, it was the first. Expanded options like "attacking other players and taking their stuff" would appear in this particular type of game as well, as seen in stuff like SRE and BRE.

Like I said, I don't think the basic elements of KoDP were in themselves unique - how could they be? But I don't think you really appreciate how ballsy it was for to reduce the game to those particular elements. Basically, to even try to make a game like KoDP requires the conviction that you can pull off a strategy game in which all the conventional elements of a strategy game have been minimised or removed entirely and that you can bank on the story events to carry the game.

I'm not really sure "Ballsy" fit into this. This is a company that made e-commerce and office software. They weren't really a game company at all, and this was basically a side project that lucked out somehow. It can't even have been considered commercially successful: According to Wikkapedia, only 8000 copies of the game were actually sold. It was a niche game made as a hobby that somehow attracted attention years after it had come and essentially gone.

 

[Shaewaroz]

LORD is a text-based grindy combat simulator with light RPG elements

But at its core, it was about you, progressing from random event to random event, in which you would pick between two or more choices of things to do with no clue what would actually happen as a result.

But in KoDP you actually have clues what choices are going to be the right ones. You have your clans history and tradition. You can also learn more about myths (that helps in heroquesting) and other aspects of Glorantha from the "Lore" section of the game, but I bet you've never opened it since lore is just for flavor and storyfags.

Yet, is not KODP, too, about planting crops and feeding people? Still, it was the first. Expanded options like "attacking other players and taking their stuff" would appear in this particular type of game as well, as seen in stuff like SRE and BRE.

By your logic KoDP and Travian are practically the same game.

 

[Norfleet]

But in KoDP you actually have clues what choices are going to be the right ones. You have your clans history and tradition. You can also learn more about myths (that helps in heroquesting) and other aspects of Glorantha from the "Lore" section of the game, but I bet you've never opened it since lore is just for flavor and storyfags.

Actually, I do read about this stuff. I was referring to the other things. A lot of the events actually have little to do with history and tradition, or the lore itself. They're issues like whether you execute an accused criminal, which battle tactics work best in which situation, etc. The game doesn't really explain this anywhere, or ever. You're pretty much just left to push buttons in the hope that your vision of reality meshes with the designer's.

By your logic KoDP and Travian are practically the same game.

I know little about Travian, but from what I know, yes, they'd basically be the same thing. Once you strip them of the fluffy, distractionary trappings and play them as games, they'd be quite similar. Of course, KODP has several advantages here, like not requiring the existence of other players who will almost certainly kill you immediately, having a head start advantage and experience in the exact mechanics of the game and all, and, of course, when a game has no other players, it needs more of a story to compensate.

 

[Shaewaroz]

But in KoDP you actually have clues what choices are going to be the right ones. You have your clans history and tradition. You can also learn more about myths (that helps in heroquesting) and other aspects of Glorantha from the "Lore" section of the game, but I bet you've never opened it since lore is just for flavor and storyfags.

Actually, I do read about this stuff. I was referring to the other things. A lot of the events actually have little to do with history and tradition, or the lore itself. They're issues like whether you execute an accused criminal, which battle tactics work best in which situation, etc. The game doesn't really explain this anywhere, or ever. You're pretty much just left to push buttons in the hope that your vision of reality meshes with the designer's.

Heroquesting is directly impacted by myths. They're not a direct walkthroughs of heroquests but help you find answers to certain quest sequences. Others you just have to guess, which is great since God tales are supposed to be ambiguous and mysterious. I would have loved if David would have put even more lore into the "Lore" section that could be used to find answers to the kind of questions you mentioned - descriptions of famous trials of the past, depictions of ancient battle tactics etc. They shouldn't be direct answers to events but something that would also require the player to read between the lines and make interpretations of their own.

By your logic KoDP and Travian are practically the same game.

I know little about Travian, but from what I know, yes, they'd basically be the same thing.

OK... Not much I can add to that.

 

[Norfleet]

Heroquesting is directly impacted by myths. They're not a direct walkthroughs of heroquests but help you find answers to certain quest sequences. Others you just have to guess, which is great since God tales are supposed to be ambiguous and mysterious.

The game does seem to strongly imply that reenacting these quests in a manner faithful to the source material will benefit you, but on the other hand, it could all just be superstition and the outcome of anything may have very little to do with this. Short of tearing the game's datafiles apart, it would be hard to know, and given the small audience this game actually had, there frankly isn't all that much information out there, compared to more popular games which are methodically torn apart by a much larger crowd.

I would have loved if David would have put even more lore into the "Lore" section that could be used to find answers to the kind of questions you mentioned - descriptions of famous trials of the past, depictions of ancient battle tactics etc. They shouldn't be direct answers to events but something that would also require the player to read between the lines and make interpretations of their own.

Yes, in the end, much of the time, you're essentially just guessing and hurling numbers at things. The game doesn't provide you with nearly as much info as it could, and is often rather vague.

OK... Not much I can add to that.

Yes, it seems clear that we see very different things in games. I dunno how long you've been at it, but I've been playing games since practically the beginning, and after a point, everything starts to blur together and become "one of those". KODP didn't give me the sense that I was experiencing a new combination of things I had never seen before, it was "one of those".

 

[Silva]

I agree KoDP is one of the most original games ever, not only for its form (a specific flavour of simulation and emergent storytelling) but for its content too (a rarely seen anthropologically correct take on myth and superstition of ancient peoples that make your average tolkienesque fantasy game look like a children's toy).

It's genre is itself composed by really rare games: Crusader Kings, Dwarf Fortress, RotTK8, Taikou Risshiden, etc. If you know more games from this genre let me know, please. I love it.

 

[Silva]

I know this is nuts, but I would love to see a sequel that lets you play with different cultures, from Orlanthi to Lunar to Praxian to Uz. But that would be too ambitious I think.

 

[Morality Games]

http://sixages.com/

What could go wrong?

Who among the Codex will undertake the Hero Quest to ensure A-Sharp succeeds in their endeavor?

 

[Shaewaroz]

I know this is nuts, but I would love to see a sequel that lets you play with different cultures, from Orlanthi to Lunar to Praxian to Uz. But that would be too ambitious I think.

I think one of the developers hinted that Six Ages is not going to be centered around Orlanthi tribes like KoDP. So at least we're definitely getting something new, not just KoDP 2.

Letting the player choose from multiple different cultures would indeed be too ambitious since culture specific events would be an absolute nightmare to design. On the other hand IF they'd make the game more modder friendly something like this might be achieved in the future.

 

[Merlkir]

We're entering the concept art stage.

http://sixages.blogspot.ca/2014/11/concept-art-goals.html

And I have to say, the artists who we asked to join at this point both know their stuff when it comes to certain cultures. (which we'll be drawing inspiration from) Should be fun and it should end up fitting (visually) in the canon stuff established by the Guide to Glorantha books.

edit: Some of the press articles make it seem like I'm the original artist on KoDP. This is not the case - that art was done by a team, most influential then was Stefano Gaudiano. (who won't be joining us, sadly)

 

[Tigranes]

Russano Greenstripe20 November, 2014 11:50
You mention the iOS App Store. Will Six Ages be solely on mobile devices, or will it have a PC version like the original KoDP?

David Dunham20 November, 2014 11:53
There are content rating schemes everywhere, Apple’s is the one I have the most familiarity with these days.

Nice. Dodge.

 

[Merlkir]

Yeah, I have no idea what platforms are planned, it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't yet decided.

 

[Merlkir]

Not much of an update, but hey. We're working on it! Some really cool concept art we've made so far!

http://sixages.blogspot.cz/2014/12/concept-art-continues.html

 

[Burning Bridges]

Do people really need to get excited because someone made a fucking blog? As far as I could see this game is not even early development.

Do you want me to spend the weekend to make a blog of my own with screenshots of games I phantasized over so that you can masturbate?
I have done a lot of programming/art in the last 10 years and it would look a lot more advanced than this crap.

Fuck off and come back if you have something to show.

 

[SerratedBiz]

Who gives a shit about your dumbfuck personal opinion? This thread is about Six Ages and if they want to hype their fucking upcoming concept art they may well fucking do so.

 

[Burning Bridges]

But it's the truth. And a motivational speech, to actually show something and prove me wrong.