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Skyrim - Bethesda, you should be very, very proud.

Discussion in 'Bethesda Game Studios' started by Twinfalls, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. Black Cat Prestigious Gentleman Magister

    Black Cat
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    Second most god-fucking-awful interface in the history of video games, actually. Gothic's still the king.
     
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  2. fizzelopeguss Arcane

    fizzelopeguss
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    Play a bethesda title and you soon see what a brilliant piece of design and pacing the first two gothic games were. I feel that's because of how tightly integrated the chapters and story were, when you were ready to "unlock" the next stage of the map you were given/found an armour or weapon that visualised it for you that all that levelling and all those quests have made it possible for your character to move on. (outside of cheesing/glitching the mobs, or surviving tooth and nail every creature battle)

    This game supposedly has a hundred and fifty PoI's, a carriage right at the start of your "adventure" that'll take you 8 different towns...good luck trying to balance all that shit if your aiming for a truly freeform, sandboxy world.

    I think that's the downfall of gothic 3, the game is just too fucking big and it lost the virgin tight balance.

    The blacksmithing in this is at often times brilliant (allowing you to level up your absolute favourite weapons and armour) and shit (abuse, making loot finding obsolete.)
     
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  3. Crooked Bee (no longer) a wide-wandering bee Patron

    Crooked Bee
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    Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Both aren't that bad after having to deal with Space 1889's and Whale Voyage's.
     
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  4. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    [​IMG]

    ^ Wins by default.
     
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  5. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    Which is a huge design flaw in a game that's mostly about finding loot.
     
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  6. fizzelopeguss Arcane

    fizzelopeguss
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    Absolutely, i don't even bother with the dwarven/ elf, ebony/glass shit. i think at this point those are relegated to the scale/chain/plate vendor pap in other RPG's. My loot is the TES artefacts and quest rewards.
     
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  7. The Wizard Educated

    The Wizard
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    i guess she was talking about the first one. were the inventory was atrocious.

    i guess kirkbride did write more this time around than just 4 books and a small monologue for the bad guy.

    i liked the part were you talk to the dragons, the fantasy language thing is kinda lame, but ey.
     
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  8. MetalCraze Arcane

    MetalCraze
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    That's because most people here never played Oblivion and only heard how bad it was or just were getting kodex kool kredits by hating it along with everyone else which is widespread here (see how DAO was best RPG ever in 2009 but hated the next year)

    Apart from the atmosphere and lame design with one-shot monsters I never noticed any difference from Oblivion even with max difficulty (in Oblivion minotaurs were killing you easily on early levels).

    How "this $item_name$ is extremely important to me, can you - a complete stranger who may have inferior equipment - deliver it to my father/mother/sister 50m away" is not Fallout 3 dumb-grade?

    How "you are the Chosen One, you have a dragon blood in you!! SAVE US!" doesn't suck? How "terrible DRAGONS they will kill us all!" even though a party of 3-4 NPC archers has no problem wiping them out without a single loss doesn't suck?

    In Morrowind all that Nerevarin bullshit was at least somewhere on the same level with Troika's Arcanum where main character was lied to in order to get manipulated. Here every NPC tries to suck your cock from day one.
     
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  9. villain of the story Arcane

    villain of the story
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    It is completely possible to get even the simplest things wrong or not get them at all because you just don't care. And people explained why you were wrong in that IT thread. And they are right. That's what matters. Nothing wrong or horrid about it.
     
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  10. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    You're confusing design with writing.
     
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  11. MetalCraze Arcane

    MetalCraze
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    So if a generic story about a Chosen One and NPCs being ready to die for you because you delivered a simple letter across the road is 'design' - then what is 'writing'?

    I'm genuinely interested in knowing the difference between "have you seen my father, a middle aged guy"-writing and "oh you've just went and delivered my love letter, I will now owe you my life!"-design
     
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  12. commie The Last Marxist Patron

    commie
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    Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
    6 pages about Skyrim in one troll topic in a day.



    Agent Twinfalls: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.


    Love Todd.

    :salute:
     
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  13. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    Right because... ?

    Let's try again.

    In any decent RPG numbers representing your to-hit chance, damage, defense, health matter a lot. In Skyrim the key numbers are damage, defense, and, to some degree, health.

    It goes without saying that these numbers should be balanced as much as possible. In order to do this, the ranges should be manageable and more or less consistent. As I said in the other thread, increasing damage is a common ability, but usually, it's either temporary or balanced by lowering the to-hit chance or speed, which isn't the case there.

    Now, the fact that the damage goes up with skills already throw the balance out of the window. When the damage difference is 20% for different materials, it's appropriate (10 vs 12 points). When the difference is 62 for an elven two-hander or 64 for a glass two-hander, it's a clear sign that the system is falling apart.

    Perks, potentially doubling the damage, greatly contribute to this problem. The damage range becomes unmanageable, which is obvious to anyone who's played the game. Throw in crafting and alchemy (potions improving crafting) and you can make weapons dealing insane, game breaking damage.

    2469 Armor. / 3199 Damage using (Smithing, Alchemy, Enchanting)

    The argument against was that the player was expected to put all the points into extra damage and thus there is no balance problem whatsoever because the system is balanced with the double damage/double armor in mind is silly. First, a choice is a choice. It implies instantly that some players may choose not to increase the damage (beyond the mandatory single point to unlock the perk "tree") but to spread the points around, which would make combat tedious (see a thread nearby about fighting dragons with one-handed swords).

    Second, a claim that the game is balanced for 100% more damage two-handed is bullshit. I can kill a frost dragon (once it lands) in 30 seconds with a crafted elven two-hander. Originally, I put a "drain 15 points of health" enchantment on it, but I didn't recharge it since I ran out of juice, simply because there is no point. I can craft an ebony two-hander, but again, what's the point? So that I can kill a dragon in 20 seconds?

    And in conclusion... I agree after playing longer that the player is indeed expected to invest heavily into the main skills' perks. This doesn't mean that the system created isn't unbalanced, that it's a good idea, and that every player will max the damage/defense perks. Hence, balance issues. You can't tell the player "whoa, dude! you weren't supposed to do that! it's totally your fault that the game sucks now!" You can't tell that crafting nut who made uber weapons that he did something wrong. He didn't abuse the system. He did what the system invited him to do, which brings us to the last point: increasing damage, duration, effect, defense, etc is a very lazy and dumb design, which reminds me of Dragon Age 2.
     
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  14. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    If the design is "deliver a letter (or punch him in the face - sad, but true) and he's your best friend now, eager to drop everything and follow you everywhere", then the writer can only do so much there.

    The strength of writing is shown in the world building, in conversation with many (most? 2/3? 3/4?) NPCs who flesh out the world of Skyrim and its culture. Compare this world to the northern "viking" lands of Gothic 3 and you'll see the difference instantly.

    As Gareth said: "It's a weird contrast, the background lore has maturity, ambiguity and potential. And some of the characters show flashes of decent potential. But the plots themselves let it all down."

    The latter is the design, pure and simple. Literally, simple. The idea was to give you some followers without much hassle and reward the player for doing these idiotic tasks (do things for people and they will let you take things from their homes and maybe even follow you - :facepalm:). The writing has to fit this design and there isn't much you can do there.

    The "looking for my father" line is dumb because it doesn't have any design restraints and because the "he's a middle aged guy" description doesn't describe anything.
     
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  15. Kz3r0 Arcane Sad Loser

    Kz3r0
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    Must be a German thingie. :M
     
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  16. fizzelopeguss Arcane

    fizzelopeguss
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    it's hard reading the books about the war in cryodil...because all i see are the deformed facegen faces and disneyland town design from oblivion.
     
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  17. Gregz Arcane

    Gregz
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    Yep, the better you can police your urge to press the "I win button" the more enjoyable the game.

    You can beat the game with the console in 5 minutes if you so desire, all the codes are out there. On there other hand, I've given myself permission to use a few cheats here and there because I felt certain things were an unnecessary pain. (carry restrictions mostly, I needs my brooms).

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Mortmal Arcane

    Mortmal
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    Why is not considered as rpg ? And compared to what ? The character creation is there even if you dont like the system, you dont have strengh anymore for exemple but you do specialize in martial lines equivalent to what you want to achieve with a str stat, you are able to wear heavy armor more easily if you spec for it, no int but you are doing considerably better if you spec into the magic school lines.
    Its really equivalent to other system, it doesnt even neglect speech skills, ability to get discount then ability to invest in shop etc, no its really well done.Gothic better than that ? let me laugh, gothic with its 3 cookie cutter classes...mage , paladin, bandit
    You want D&D system clone right , you are too close minded to accept antyhing else.

    The combat gets boring ? Guess what its the same in every rpgs, all of them are way too simple. The famed early ultima ? Stay back dont move and throw axes, rince and repeat.Fallout 1&2 ? take a gun ,any gun, shoot in the head,or better the eyes, rince and repeat. Arcanum ? equip the best loot and clickfest, how tactical it was omg.

    Skyrim doesnt have the worse interface of all history,gothic 1 is worsen space 1889 is worse, early gold box games are worse, remember how fun it was to rememorize each spells after each random encounters?No of course not you ,just pretend having played them and just read a wiki summary. Run dos box and champions of krynn, do a few fights and see how you stomach it .
    What am i saying ! Theres barely a few guys here able to run dos box and play a 90's game.The rest is just able to lament and scream decline , or the fucking " good for what it is " without any experience of the previous rpgs.

    I do remember those games, and not feel ashamed to place it next to ultima underworld, daggerfall and morrowind.
     
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  19. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    It's too bad there's no "Fortify Enchant" items in the game, that would provide some hilarity.
    And the best potion I found only gave +15%, which isn't a whole lot (compered to a +50% smithing one).
     
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  20. Thrasher Erudite

    Thrasher
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    Works "fine" for me. It must be your computer. :smug:
     
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  21. Rhalle Magister

    Rhalle
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    Obviously they should have left Enchanting in the magic tree, instead of making it a skill, like Alchemy.

    And Blacksmithing-- did they just get lazy and decide not to scale the XP for crafting items? I mean, it has a shadow of WoW blacksmithing on it, except that they didn't bother to scale it so that you couldn't make a single cheap item all the way to 100.

    Was scaling the XP gain for different teirs of created items too hard for them, or did they just not care?

    I've been sitting on 80 smithing and 80 enchanting, purposely gimping myself, but I don't think I can resist any longer. The best blacksmitighin potion I've seen is 40%; but there's definitely a higher than 15% enchanting one; I want to say that the Philter of Enchanting is either 20 or 30%-- I've used it.
     
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  22. Majestic47 Learned

    Majestic47
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    Next time I'm starting a new char I won't even bother crafting a single piece . Maybe just potions.

    Crafting skills should have a seperate level up mechanic. One that improves their own perks as you use them.

    Gaining a level up from crafting daggers and putting the perk point to blocking feels kinda wrong.
     
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  23. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
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    Folks,

    It's not hard. Just do what I did from the outset - ignore smithing and crafting. It struck me as a bit of fluff to attract the mainstream, and LARPY silliness - like that other great series which had LARPY silliness - Ultima. I didn't spend much time baking bread in that one either. I used a bench in Skyrim and wondered 'Why would my Conan-esque swordsman instantly be able to craft jewellery worth thousands in gold?'. So I just stopped using them. Not hard.

    Ignore it. If you have the strength to play any 3D shooter and not pop up the console and type in 'noclip', I'm sure you can handle this.

    So VD dislikes the dungeons. That's ok - his review of Oblivion praised the dungeons. That's okay too, they were bigger and spookier, but heavily repetitive. I'm really seeing this game as a sequel to Morrowind. In that respect the dungeons are so far, so good. They're more varied and look great. (except for item overload - but again - you don't have to pick up every goddam thing lying around). Easy exit - so fucking what - when you consider the whole package, the number of dungeons, the size of the world, the backstory etc etc.

    Play the game on Expert, or Master even. It's tough. It's huge. The lore is great. Quests so far are pretty good. MQ may not be great (I'm not far in at all). But it's TES. It's a real sequel to Morrowind, and a vast improvement in game mechanics on Morrowind.

    And hey, fuck you all if you think graphics don't count. Look me in the eye and tell me Stanley Kubrick's films are no good because we can't count how incredibly gorgeous they are. Especially Barry Lyndon. ESPECIALLY BARRY LYNDON
     
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  24. villain of the story Arcane

    villain of the story
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    I haven't once bothered with crafting, smithing, enchanting or alchemy.

    Also, I have 83 in Speech with all the non-trade related perks and obviously, you can still fail some intimidation or persuasion attempt even at Speech 83 with all those perks. This is a massive incline from Bethesda. And one that is very mature from design standpoint.
     
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  25. Hoaxmetal Arcane

    Hoaxmetal
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    I used blacksmithing only for one quest and the balance is just fine - I one shot sometimes, I get one shotted sometimes.
    Typical Codex :salute:
     
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