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Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

DraQ

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So, I never touched Skyrim after the monumental dogshit that was Oblivion.

so, uh, is Skyrim any good?
Yes, it is any good.

Mechanically it's mostly even more dumbed down than oblivious (attribute system getting cut, no spellmaker, less skills, less spells, although some improvements are present - casting/wielding system is pretty sound, necromantic spells are no longer just summons, perk system and having to invest into health, magicka or stamina at level up force some specialization). It also has awfully linear dungeons.

It's much better in terms of gameworld and its logic, art direction, outdoor locations and quite a bit better in terms of combat.

C&C are obviously nothing to write home about, but way better than in oblivious.

It's good enough for me to have played it unmodded for some time, and soundly enough constructed to have mods fix it, while I couldn't stomach oblivious and would rate it 15 vile turds out of 10.

Hmmmm...
Someone once said that to me about Oblivion. Lemme clarify. I hated Oblivion and loved Gothic 2, so where does Skyrim fall on that scale?
To clarify, I'd need to know ow did you feel about Morrowind and Daggerfall, and what in particular did you hate/like about each of the three mentioned TES games.

It would take at least 200 hours to max the perk tree. Why do so many people act like the first 80 hours of an RPG don't matter if you eventually reach godhood?
It's still finally fixing one of the main problems constantly recurring in TES character systems, then patching the fix out.

Seriously, I hope Todd gets hit by a train.
 

DalekFlay

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It's still finally fixing one of the main problems constantly recurring in TES character systems, then patching the fix out.

Seriously, I hope Todd gets hit by a train.

I get that, I really do, but functionally I can be a god in Morrowind in 1/10th the time it would take to even approach that level in Skyrim.
 

AW8

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It would take at least 200 hours to max the perk tree. Why do so many people act like the first 80 hours of an RPG don't matter if you eventually reach godhood?
NPCs don't achieve godhood.

I'm not in favor of 10/10 100/100 being attainable in RPGs. I wish they didn't add respec in Dragonborn or this new legendary thing. I just also don't think 100 hours of only being good in four or five skills out of 20 can be tossed in the bin as irrelevant because of the second 100 hours.
You're right that it shouldn't be tossed in the bin alltogether.

It's just that it's fucking wrong! Todd saw a sign saying "Right direction", and decided to make an U-turn and drove the other way as far as he could. Vanilla Skyrim gives you enough perks to specialize so much that trying out a new character loses its value. Still, it's the only real reason to create a new character, as there will always be some perks you can't pick. And now that goes out the window as well. The game is obviously designed to be all but completed in one playthrough, and this is unfortunately yet another part of that process.

The first hours of Skyrim do matter, but I would enjoy it a lot more if I didn't know I was gonna end up a god in every area.
I get that, I really do, but functionally I can be a god in Morrowind in 1/10th the time it would take to even approach that level in Skyrim.
Playing Morrowind right now, and it does annoy me that it's so simple to increase the attributes. I enjoy being a weakling with low Strength and Endurance, but since there's no limit to increasing attributes, I can all too easy get a high number in all attributes. :(
And why would I not accept more carry weight and HP when I'm offered? It's not like I'm choosing between sneaking skill and carry weight, it's the typical TES choice of "what do you want to master first?".
 

DalekFlay

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Vanilla Skyrim gives you enough perks to specialize so much that trying out a new character loses its value.

Only if you choose that. You don't get to the point where perks doth overflow until level 35 or so. Even after that point you're probably just adding one spell tree or two, not becoming a full mage, or perhaps switching from two-handed to shield and sword. You can tell me all day long that specializing doesn't exist in Skyrim but I know it does. I know it because I've put 200+ hours into the game and experienced it, plus the simple math of the max level being 81, which takes 200 or more hours to get to, and that's still only 81 out of 255 perks. Also you can't suddenly make up for all those mana boosts you skipped either, or health ones if you're a mage.

Yes Dragonborn and this patch reverse some of these decisions. Yes that annoys me. But in both cases it's still functionally specialized. Respeccing perks does not change skill points or health/mana/stamina. You cannot change from a warrior to a mage by respecing perk points, you'll be a super shitty mage with no mana. And the legendary skills thing would take, literally, 300 hours or more to become a god with. It's for crazy people and doesn't invalidate what came before.

I'm not trying to rant I just find this "first 100 hours doesn't matter if I can eventually branch out" argument tiresome. For the bulk of the game you either specialize or are a weak jack of all trades, which is an awesome step forward for TES.
 

Sunsetspawn

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So, I never touched Skyrim after the monumental dogshit that was Oblivion.

so, uh, is Skyrim any good?
Yes, it is any good.

Mechanically it's mostly even more dumbed down than oblivious (attribute system getting cut, no spellmaker, less skills, less spells, although some improvements are present - casting/wielding system is pretty sound, necromantic spells are no longer just summons, perk system and having to invest into health, magicka or stamina at level up force some specialization). It also has awfully linear dungeons.

It's much better in terms of gameworld and its logic, art direction, outdoor locations and quite a bit better in terms of combat.

C&C are obviously nothing to write home about, but way better than in oblivious.

It's good enough for me to have played it unmodded for some time, and soundly enough constructed to have mods fix it, while I couldn't stomach oblivious and would rate it 15 vile turds out of 10.

Sounds better, but there's the BIG question that you left unanswered, and it's the elephant in the room (RIP Patrice).
Does Skyrim have the fun level-scaled right out of it?
Hmmmm...
Someone once said that to me about Oblivion. Lemme clarify. I hated Oblivion and loved Gothic 2, so where does Skyrim fall on that scale?
To clarify, I'd need to know ow did you feel about Morrowind and Daggerfall, and what in particular did you hate/like about each of the three mentioned TES games.
Hmmm... I still have the Daggefall box laying around here somewhere, so I could get back to you on that one eventually. I don't think I ever got around to installing it, but that may have been because my PC couldn't handle it at the time, and I didn't have the attention span to remember to play it when I upgraded. That's a guess, though.
I know I liked the Ultima Underworlds and Betrayal at Krondor, but I'll be fucked if I remember why.

Morrowind, on the other hand, is a little more upfront in my memory. The world felt hand-crafted, with stuff to be found everywhere. I liked that I couldn't fast travel because it enhanced the "danger," also less-obvious (if any) level scaling enhanced the "danger." Spell crafting and enchanting were nice. The lore was deep and EVERYWHERE, and only served to enhance the ATMOSPHERE (I'm an atmospherefag). There was always something interesting, new, exciting, and dangerous just over there.

Oblivion, on the other hand, was squashed for me by the level scaling and all I can see is rage when I think about it. Enemies were the same, loot was the same, and boredom was the same. I never encountered a particular challenge that enticed me to overcome it for some special treat. Figuring out that I could steal a bunch of great shit and then teleport away made me feel like a boss in Morrowind, but there were no moments like that in what I played of Oblivion. There was nothing to be found anywhere, and I never had to fear because I could fast travel anywhere, and the stupid cunt developers didn't even think to put in some kind of random encounter generator with the fast travel. I understand that fast travel is a necessity in these modern times and we'll never see it removed, but yuck. Also, the quest compass made me crazy. I didn't have to find anything properly, just put the mark at 12:00 and go... whoopie.

I tell you what though, I leveled too many skills that didn't affect combat directly and found every foe invincible. AND, and here was the kicker, the only way to fix it was to either move the slider down (gay), or, grind non-class skills to enhance my power without increasing the level of my enemies. I HAD TO METAGAME. Ewwwww, that shit was the worst. Struggle to increase my power without increasing the numerical value that would increase the power of EVERY ENEMY AND PIECE OF EQUIPMENT I FOUND!?!? It makes me mad just thinking about it. It's basically the same thing as turning down the slider. Shit, now I'm mad all over again and this was years ago.
It would take at least 200 hours to max the perk tree. Why do so many people act like the first 80 hours of an RPG don't matter if you eventually reach godhood?
It's still finally fixing one of the main problems constantly recurring in TES character systems, then patching the fix out.

Seriously, I hope Todd gets hit by a train.
Who's Todd?

The idea of patching out specialization sounds stupid. Even Invisible War made you specialize.
 

Sceptic

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Tremendous :incline: of 2013 newfags.

Hmmm... I still have the Daggefall box laying around here somewhere, so I could get back to you on that one eventually.
If you do end up playing it, please come back and share your thoughts. Considering what you like in Morrowind, and that Daggerfall is a vastly different, I'm very interested in reading what you will think of it.

I would also point you in the direction of a thread where we discussed Morrowind vs Daggerfall some years ago, but I'll be damned if I remember which one that was.
 

Sunsetspawn

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Tremendous :incline: of 2013 newfags.
The oldfags are getting stale. My brand of hipster douchebaggery is the new hotness.

Hmmm... I still have the Daggefall box laying around here somewhere, so I could get back to you on that one eventually.
If you do end up playing it, please come back and share your thoughts. Considering what you like in Morrowind, and that Daggerfall is a vastly different, I'm very interested in reading what you will think of it.
Will do, but I'm currently running both Drakensang 1 (to be followed by 2) and Baldur's Gate 2, and I've got a lot on my to-play list, though I have completely given up on new games so I will eventually get to it. I took a few minutes before bed and had a look in the closet for Daggerfall. Unfortunately all I could find was Star Control 2 and Betrayal at Krondor, then the door shut behind me and it was kinda nice in there.

I would also point you in the direction of a thread where we discussed Morrowind vs Daggerfall some years ago, but I'll be damned if I remember which one that was.
I'll find it.
 

DraQ

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Does Skyrim have the fun level-scaled right out of it?
Less than oblivious.

Most enemies have level range, and location's level supposedly gets set on first entry. Even in vanilla there won't be full replacement of enemy types, and rare items will remain somewhat rare.

Still, you won't find high level stuff until you're high level (but then it will still take more than just popping a bandit).
Alas, you also won't really run into a dungeon you'll have to get the FFFFUUU- out of.

Now:

+ Atmosphere is pretty strong point. Gone is blandland of oblivious.
+ Lore is not as strong as Morroind's but is acknowledged and built upon
+ Gameworld has structure, for example diverse racial groups exists, usually with reasons for being there
+ There is conflict in gameworld and it isn't just good VS evil we had displeasure to see in oblivious
+ Landscape is pretty diverse and dotted with landmarks
+ Minor overland locations include all sorts of (usually) hostile encampments and ruins
+ Terrain is made in a way that restricts straight line travel and sight, creating illusion of size (Morrowind style)
+ Dungeons and other locations tend to have at least some unique touches
+ There is hidden loot to be found
+ Races have diverse physiognomy and no longer look like malformed tubers (imagine Morrowind style looks, but with modern quality)
+ There are some token C&C, you can choose your side in the civil war, decide outcome of some quests, or take out the DB instead of joining them
+ NPC dialogue is no longer painfully inane
+ Unified and pretty logical spell/item wielding system exists in game
+ Continuous spells and runes (traps) make a welcome addition to caster's arsenal
+ Necromantic spells no longer conjure undead from thin air, but raise corpses instead
+ enchant skill is back
+ Thu'um makes a welcome addition to spells and weapons
+ All skill ups contribute to leveling up
+ Perk system forces some specialization, you get one perk point per level up and need to choose where to put it
+ Similarly you have to choose between boosting magicka, stamina and health pool at each level up
+ lycanthropy is in
+ there is some reactivity in gameworld that doesn't rely on unique scripts, for example you may have thugs sent after you if you steal from someone or kill their relative (or thanks sent your way if you kill someone's enemy) and so on
+ there are random events to make the world more lively - successfully, I might add
+ there is follower system in place allowing you to have an NPC accompanying you and assisting you in combat
+ AI is improved (and can be improved even further to quite admirable levels with mods)
+ stuff like alchemy, crafting or enchanting requires a workshop and can't be just done on your lap
+ some daedric quests are pretty sinister and often offer explicit choice
+ as of current version riding around on horseback and killing things can be done concurrently

+/- Dialogue system has been completely altered to weak dialogue trees and only for somewhat significant characters - it allows for more dialogue and less bland when it comes to important characters, as compared to oblivious, but you can't approach an NPC and ask about anything you want

+/- Daggerfall's procedural quests are seeing a comeback as filler

+/- Fast travel is present, but in reduced form. Even cities need to be traveled to conventionally at first. Paid travel services exist without such restriction.

+/- Combat system is effectively improved version of oblivious'. It's not nearly as bad, but no such things as to hit-rolls. On the positive side it feels better

+/- Dwemer ruins have different architecture than in Morrowind, but the game acknowledges the differences, and even in Tribunal you had different dwemer architecture than in base Morrowind

+/- Derpy cinematic finishers are in, but they are not player exclusive - you can get cinematically offed by an NPC or creature just as well


- no initial builds exist, you just choose race (with skill bonuses) and start as (weak) jack of all trades
- There is quest compass system (although some quests include some directions and more can be modded in)
- Dungeons are horribly linear (thankfully overland locations offer considerable freedom of approach, although they often have strong semblance of linearity)
- Pretty much no unique or non-leveled loot exists (apart from quest rewards), although some types loot are rare enough to make searching for hidden stashes worthwhile
- Some skills are gone
- attributes have got axed, some functions of attribute system have been taken over by three resource pools (magicka, stamina and health)
- journal is utter garbage
- menus are pretty much the worst atrocity since Holocaust (thankfully mods exist for that)
- questlines are paced for ADDtards and pretty much go from n00b to chosen one right away (and get to kill your firs dragon - albeit with considerable help - on lulzy level)
- dragons are frequent and effectively become cliffracers 2.0 (not as frequent, but mostly just disruptive to travel)
- dragon AI is poor and their capabilities pretty limited, so they get boring fast (thankfully this can be modded)
- overall logic of questlines is... questionable at best
- enchantment system is very constrained and doesn't allow for interesting, non-scripted stuff
- magic system has been butchered
- no spellmaking
- quest hooks effectively drop on your lap
- no durability or repair mechanics
- attacks have no visible impact (combat and character system can be modded to hardcore levels, though)
- no guild entry requirements exists (mechanically, there is often some simple test, though, that can be made entry barrier by just a re-balancing mod)
 

granit

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I did my best to look up Skyrim mods that corrected big minuses in design. If anyone is interested, I could talk about those mods in more detail in another thread.
Here is a quick list of features given by mods.

Major corrections, "you can't play without this!"
+ Fast travel forbidden, except as a paid (at a higher price than vanilla) service between cities
+ Mark and Recall spells are back
+ Open Cities
+ Complete overhaul of loot making most everything harder to get (some of the best items are hand placed in the world at static locations) and exploring much more rewarding
+ Remove blacksmithing of higher quality than steel, or at least limit it so that you must first find the item before knowing how to craft it
+ Skyrim level scaling is stopped, you can now face high level monsters and get your ass handed to you. Also, you must now explore dangerous places to get good gear, since town merchants no longer scales their inventories to your level.
+ Quest compass removed, quest markers removed, quests now actually tell you roughly where you need to go. Not as good as in Morrowind but then again what the hell is.


Minor corrections,
+ NPC's now have correct height, i.e altmer are much taller than bosmer
+ Dwemer spectres are back, along with Hungers and other Morrowind lore friendly creatures
+ Cliffracers are back
+ Soul gems are named after the captured soul
+ Over 170 books from Morrowind can now be found in Skyrim
 

DraQ

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I did my best to look up Skyrim mods that corrected big minuses in design. If anyone is interested, I could talk about those mods in more detail in another thread.
Here is a quick list of features given by mods.

Major corrections, "you can't play without this!"
+ Fast travel forbidden, except as a paid (at a higher price than vanilla) service between cities
+ Mark and Recall spells are back
+ Open Cities
+ Complete overhaul of loot making most everything harder to get (some of the best items are hand placed in the world at static locations) and exploring much more rewarding
+ Remove blacksmithing of higher quality than steel, or at least limit it so that you must first find the item before knowing how to craft it
+ Skyrim level scaling is stopped, you can now face high level monsters and get your ass handed to you. Also, you must now explore dangerous places to get good gear, since town merchants no longer scales their inventories to your level.
+ Quest compass removed, quest markers removed, quests now actually tell you roughly where you need to go. Not as good as in Morrowind but then again what the hell is.


Minor corrections,
+ NPC's now have correct height, i.e altmer are much taller than bosmer
+ Dwemer spectres are back, along with Hungers and other Morrowind lore friendly creatures
+ Cliffracers are back
+ Soul gems are named after the captured soul
+ Over 170 books from Morrowind can now be found in Skyrim


Would be helpful if you listed individual mods for each of the alterations, you know.
 

granit

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Messages
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Would be helpful if you listed individual mods for each of the alterations, you know.
Absolutely. My intent was to list all those mods, including download and information URLs, in a Skyrim mod thread. I will do a proper post like that later, for now I will just quick list the names:

Major corrections, "you can't play without this!"
+ Fast travel forbidden, except as a paid (at a higher price than vanilla) service between cities
Mod: Disable Fast Travel Permanently
+ Mark and Recall spells are back
Mod: Mark and Recall v4 Complete
+ Open Cities
Mod: Open Cities Skyrim
+ Complete overhaul of loot making most everything harder to get (some of the best items are hand placed in the world at static locations) and exploring much more rewarding
Mod: Morrowloot
+ Remove blacksmithing of higher quality than steel, or at least limit it so that you must first find the item before knowing how to craft it
Mod: Morrowloot Nwah edition / Morrowloot
+ Skyrim level scaling is stopped, you can now face high level monsters and get your ass handed to you. Also, you must now explore dangerous places to get good gear, since town merchants no longer scales their inventories to your level.
Mod: Skyrim Scaling Stopper
+ Quest compass removed, quest markers removed, quests now actually tell you roughly where you need to go. Not as good as in Morrowind but then again what the hell is.
Mod: Better Quest Objectives, Skyrim Compass Tuner

Minor corrections,
+ NPC's now have correct height, i.e altmer are much taller than bosmer
Mod: Height Adjusted Races v4 Morrowind Lore Heights
+ Dwemer spectres are back, along with Hungers and other Morrowind lore friendly creatures
Mod: Dwemer Spectres
+ Cliffracers are back
+ Soul gems are named after the captured soul
+ Over 170 books from Morrowind can now be found in Skyrim
Mod: Tamriel Compendium

Also I highly recommend the mod Alternate Start - Live Another Life. Basically it can skip or delay the tutorial and Helgen event entirely, and create more interesting and open starts. Game changer!
 

DraQ

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Would be helpful if you listed individual mods for each of the alterations, you know.
Absolutely. My intent was to list all those mods, including download and information URLs, in a Skyrim mod thread. I will do a proper post like that later, for now I will just quick list the names:

Major corrections, "you can't play without this!"
+ Fast travel forbidden, except as a paid (at a higher price than vanilla) service between cities
Mod: Disable Fast Travel Permanently
+ Mark and Recall spells are back
Mod: Mark and Recall v4 Complete
+ Open Cities
Mod: Open Cities Skyrim
+ Complete overhaul of loot making most everything harder to get (some of the best items are hand placed in the world at static locations) and exploring much more rewarding
Mod: Morrowloot
+ Remove blacksmithing of higher quality than steel, or at least limit it so that you must first find the item before knowing how to craft it
Mod: Morrowloot Nwah edition / Morrowloot
+ Skyrim level scaling is stopped, you can now face high level monsters and get your ass handed to you. Also, you must now explore dangerous places to get good gear, since town merchants no longer scales their inventories to your level.
Mod: Skyrim Scaling Stopper
+ Quest compass removed, quest markers removed, quests now actually tell you roughly where you need to go. Not as good as in Morrowind but then again what the hell is.
Mod: Better Quest Objectives, Skyrim Compass Tuner

Minor corrections,
+ NPC's now have correct height, i.e altmer are much taller than bosmer
Mod: Height Adjusted Races v4 Morrowind Lore Heights
+ Dwemer spectres are back, along with Hungers and other Morrowind lore friendly creatures
Mod: Dwemer Spectres
+ Cliffracers are back
+ Soul gems are named after the captured soul
+ Over 170 books from Morrowind can now be found in Skyrim
Mod: Tamriel Compendium

Also I highly recommend the mod Alternate Start - Live Another Life. Basically it can skip or delay the tutorial and Helgen event entirely, and create more interesting and open starts. Game changer!
Morrowloot is p. good.

Fast travel is also disabled (overrideable) by Requiem, which also adds teleportation spells (one working like M&R and one using LoS).
 

DalekFlay

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I would definitely need mark and recall and maybe even a back to town spell like divine intervention. Having only the carriages would get fucking tiresome.
 

Machocruz

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Even after starting up Morrowind numerous times, mastering several guild and walking from one end of the continent to the other, to this day it still feels like there is some interesting location, or spell, or items, or game mechanic that I haven't seen or used or some important or interesting character I haven't met...even if there aren't
images_zps1ab055fd.jpg



With every game after, I feel like I've uncovered the whole puzzle after 20 hours and the rest of the game is going to be a repeat of those 20 hours.

frog_zps9b6948dc.jpg
 

DalekFlay

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Yeah, I played Morrowind for 20 hours again recently after finishing Skyrim's last DLC. Even after 10+ years and hundreds of hours I found some things I never saw before. Amazing.
 

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