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Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

Lhynn

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I just want to play what i want to play, not what they want me to play... if that makes any sense.
I dont want to HAVE to be the dragonborn, i dont want to HAVE to be a friend of martin septim. Because it gets old, rather they focus on factions and their motivations instead of trying to accommodate the whole world and events to revolve around the player.
I dont want to be the one that has to stop some cunt from taking over the world, maybe i want to help the dude that wants to do it, then kill it at the most critical moment and take all the glory to myself? maybe i want to serve the dude that wants to take over the world, for years, before deciding i want to sit on his chair. Point is, some cunt wants to take over the world, feel like doing something about it?

They shouldnt even care about cannon, they should just make an official one and let you screw with the events in the game as you see fit and are able to.
Ahhhh, a man can dream i guess, Hope obsidian gets around to craft a world like they did on NV in future releases.
 

Metro

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Funny thing is I rarely used any of the shouts in ~60ish hours of vanilla Skyrim.
 

Zewp

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The only one I really used consistently was Fusrodah, and that only because it made for some loltastic moments at times.
 

Metro

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I can see how on a modded difficulty with a melee character they would be a lot more useful. Well, that and I don't think I got to the monastery until I was level 20.
 

Caim

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Re: Chosen One narratives, the problem is that the "writers" Beth employs nowadays are either stupid or dishonest, since they either can't write or are dumbing down the narratives to make them more palatable to kiddies. Morrowind's Chosen One narrative succeeds because it strongly sticks to the traditional Monomyth while subverting it at the same time. Oblivion and Skyrim, on the other hand, either fail entirely at making the hero interesting (Oblivion, with the sidekick hero) or making the hero's path interesting (Skyrim, with people begging you to accept the fact that you are Dragonborn from day one).

Morrowind's story is exciting and engaging because it uses a time-tested narrative structure:

The hero is called to adventure, by a seeming act of coincidence (letter to Caius Cosades) that may have been moved by the hand of God, but he may decide to ignore the call (go adventuring and ignore the main quest for the time being) thus attempting to flee from, or to postpone, his fate. Once the adventure starts, however, the hero eventually reaches a junction where he must accept to undergo a transformation -- that he, the world, or his relationship with the world will never be the same again. In this case the transformation is contracting the corprus disease, which plays the part of the "belly of the whale" stage. The hero symbolically dies and is born again from the terrifying experience in which he conquers the disease against all odds whilst remaining transformed (the positive effects of the disease remain -- the hero has effectively become super-human).

The next stages of the monomyth play quite fluidly, with the trials -- in this case, the Ashlander prophecies -- in which the hero undergoes a series of ordeals: in his attempts to unite the tribes and great houses, the hero is mocked, derided as a heretic and subjected to all sorts of violence, from which he emerges victorious. The "meeting with the goddess" takes place quite literally, in Morrowind, with the meeting with Azura in the Cave of the Incarnate, where she grants the hero Moon-and-Star, thus confirming him as the Nerevarine.

Atonement with the father is portrayed by the Nerevarine's reconciliation with Vivec. Vivec feels threatened by the Nerevarine and plays the role of a father-figure, as emerges from the 36 Lessons of Vivec, throughout which the much younger Vivec acts as Nerevar's mentor, teaching him the walking ways. Having reconciled himself with Vivec and secured his aid, the hero is ready to finish his quest -- to slay Dagoth Ur. In doing so, the hero secures the love of the Goddess, as is seen in the last cutscene. Direct contact with the deity is understood as the ultimate boon, confirming the PC in his heroic or immortal status. From the ending, it is understood that the hero is free to live and to help his world -- in other words, the game goes on.

Likewise, however, it subverts the Monomyth by adding variables of uncertainty, as the player is left wondering about the nature of his character -- was he an agent planted by the Empire, playing to local superstitions? Was the Ashlander prophecy true? Was he the pawn of the vengeful goddess Azura in her scheme to get back at the Tribunal? Or was he just playing out the plan laid out by Vivec in his 36 Lessons? This has been done before, of course, in a similar fashion. In Dune, we are left wondering if the Fremen prophecies about the Lisan Al-Gaib were actually true, or if Paul was merely playing to a fake prophecy planted by Bene Gesserit missionaries; this adds drama to the moment when he decides to drink the Water of Life, a process in which he nearly dies and is reborn as the Kwisatz Haderach (transformation), with full prescience on both the male and female lineages.

From this perspective, it is easy to see where OB and Skyrim failed, narrative-wise. In particular, they both fail to incorporate the early (arguably, the most important and uplifting) part of the Monomyth, as characters are practically begging the main character to be a hero without having to undergo trials or a transformation. Taking the step from being an ordinary person to a hero is practically non-existent; there is no "threshold", so to speak. In Oblivion, the closest thing is the emperor behaving in an irrational manner and deciding to give the hero the amulet of kings against all odds during the tutorial. In Skyrim, it is absorbing the first dragon soul, which leads absolutely everyone to tell you you are dragonborn and must go for some dragon training at Camp Greybeard. From there, it's all a big rollercoaster ride to find the required macguffins and kill the big bad [Mehrunes Dagon/Alduin] and save the day.
An excellent post and you should feel excellent for making it.

The closest thing I can get to the first step of the Monomyth for Oblivion is the secret passage in your cell, the Emperor's death being your call to adventure paired with him being the supernatural aid, the first threshold being the escape from the sewers and the overall thing being the belly of the whale.

As for the rest, I'm at a complete loss. Probably because I want to give more credit than is due.
 

Caim

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So that would mean you'd apply the Monomyth to Martin...

Call to Adventure: The attack on Kvatch.
Supernatural Aid: Murderhobo shows up and CLOSES SHUT THE JAWS OF OBLIVION.
First Threshold: Leaving the city.
Belly of the Whale: Accepting he is the heir.
Road of Trials: Sending Murderhobo to collect shit.
Meeting with the Goddess: Meeting the Blades. Sort of.
Atonement with the Father: "You are the son of the Emperor, Martin!" "Oh, okay."
Apotheosis: Turning into Akatosh/Auriel/AKHAT. More literal than elsewhere.
Ultimate Boon: Becomes the new curtain between Nirn and Oblivion.
 

hakuroshi

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I am repeating myself, but IMO, that protagonist in TES never had been "the chosen one" until Skyrim was one of the series' strength.
 

hakuroshi

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I am repeating myself, but IMO, that protagonist in TES never had been "the chosen one" until Skyrim was one of the series' strength.
Who else?

Not sure if I understand your question, but if it is about who besides Oblivion protagonist was not the chosen one, the answer is "everyone else".

In Daggerfall you are nobody important, sent by the emperor, who seems to like trusting strangers, probably because he trusts his own even less. You turn to be a central figure eventually, but mostly by accident, not design, and until the end remain a pawn, a very powerful, but a pawn.

In Arena situation is less clear, as you are eventually labelled the Eternal Champion, but at the start it is again an accident that it is you who happen to be available to run errands for Ria Falane (ultimately Barenziah, who may be called true agent of Jagar Tharn downfall except she did not yet existed as a character at the times of Arena). You are of so minor significance initially, that nobody bothers to kill you, just throw into the cell and forget.

In Morrowind you technically "a" chosen one, but not "the" chosen one. There were failed Nerevarines before, and at the start nothing suggests that you are anything different. Only after corprus disease you become something bigger.
 

Crevice tab

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I'd say that having the protagonist as a sidekick for Martin was the only good thing Oblivion did (although it ruined it by doing everything else badly). Why? Because sidekicks can sometimes be more interesting and impressive than the hero- just think about Samwise Gamgee in LOTR: he was Frodo's sidekick but also a badass in his own right, so badass that he saved Frodo's ass multiple times while in Mordor and managed to resist the fucking Ring despite being just a gardener. The problem is that all the content in Oblivion is way bellow mere mediocrity. Even the best concept doesn't mean anything if the execution is crap.


So that would mean you'd apply the Monomyth to Martin...

Call to Adventure: The attack on Kvatch.
Supernatural Aid: Murderhobo shows up and CLOSES SHUT THE JAWS OF OBLIVION.
First Threshold: Leaving the city.
Belly of the Whale: Accepting he is the heir.
Road of Trials: Sending Murderhobo to collect shit.
Meeting with the Goddess: Meeting the Blades. Sort of.
Atonement with the Father: "You are the son of the Emperor, Martin!" "Oh, okay."
Apotheosis: Turning into Akatosh/Auriel/AKHAT. More literal than elsewhere.
Ultimate Boon: Becomes the new curtain between Nirn and Oblivion.

The problem is that everything between the Supernatural Aid and the Apotheosis bit is incredibly poorly done; the protagonist doesn't help Martin in any special way instead he's just a convenient sidekick doing what the Blades should be doing because...erm this isn't very well explained. There isn't any special bond between Martin and the protagonist, you never help or even see Martin growing into his role as would be emperor, you don't even do particularly interesting quests just the same old fetch quests and the incredibly repetitive 'close a Oblivion gate' stuff (thankfully optional).
 
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In Daggerfall you are nobody important, sent by the emperor, who seems to like trusting strangers, probably because he trusts his own even less. You turn to be a central figure eventually, but mostly by accident, not design, and until the end remain a pawn, a very powerful, but a pawn.

Didn't you save the Emperor's life in DF?
 

hakuroshi

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In Daggerfall you are nobody important, sent by the emperor, who seems to like trusting strangers, probably because he trusts his own even less. You turn to be a central figure eventually, but mostly by accident, not design, and until the end remain a pawn, a very powerful, but a pawn.

Didn't you save the Emperor's life in DF?

His or some of his relatives, depending on generated history. Still you are a stranger, meeting with the emperor very briefly or not at all before.
 

Metro

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Eh, sorry you can argue semantics but you are the/a/closely resembling a chosen one in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. Oblivion to a lesser extent but it just so happens Patrick Stewart escapes through your cell and proclaims you have a great destiny. Make it so!
 
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From this perspective, it is easy to see where OB and Skyrim failed, narrative-wise. In particular, they both fail to incorporate the early (arguably, the most important and uplifting) part of the Monomyth, as characters are practically begging the main character to be a hero without having to undergo trials or a transformation. Taking the step from being an ordinary person to a hero is practically non-existent; there is no "threshold", so to speak. In Oblivion, the closest thing is the emperor behaving in an irrational manner and deciding to give the hero the amulet of kings against all odds during the tutorial. In Skyrim, it is absorbing the first dragon soul, which leads absolutely everyone to tell you you are dragonborn and must go for some dragon training at Camp Greybeard. From there, it's all a big rollercoaster ride to find the required macguffins and kill the big bad [Mehrunes Dagon/Alduin] and save the day.

He knew he wouldn't be leaving the prison alive and decided to give the amulet to you so you could sneak away while the blades held off the assassins. Uriel's actions make sense. The strange part is his bodyguard readily accepting your "he gave it to me" explanation, especially when you weren't supposed to be in that cell to begin with :M. He says he trusts the emperor's pseudo-magical intuition, but that's still way too much trust. Though he also says that he's only sending you because the other blades are dead, and at the time he doesn't know the real importance of the amulet. As far as he's concerned, the loss of the emperor and his heirs is a much bigger problem than the safety of the emperor's bling.

The protagonist later on saves the city of Kvatch from the first invading hordes, which is what makes him go from nameless courier, to hero. In Skyrim, the protagonist defeats a dragon on his own (even though you can let the guards kill him, the story assumes you did most of the work), which makes him go from nameless witness of a dragon attack, to hero.
 

hakuroshi

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Yes, but in Skyrim you are not just resembling, you are the fucking chosen one. It never had been stressed in previous games, where you never played low-key role, even in Daggerfall.

Edit: In previous games the protagonist never had an inherent ability apparent from the start which made him able to do things unavailable to other mortals (in Morrowind he gets some such abilities much later in the game and it's most likely nurture, not nature).
 
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It's not a real low-key role when the only difference between you and a famous hero, is that no one recognizes you are the only person who can save everyone :M

3qy9dn.jpg
 

hakuroshi

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You are never really low-key in TES I-IV, true, but you also not "the last and only hope" of Tamriel.
 

Lhynn

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Is it was mentioned above, Oblivion's Chosen One is Martin. Protagonist is just one of his errand boys.
Didnt being the chosen one got you released from prison in morrowind and oblivion? true, it was more of a plot hook than the theme of the game, But still, rather they just free form it at the begining and then get you involved in the stuff.
Still remember my prison "escape" in arena, was fucking awesome.

Edit: Morrowind did it right tho, i always felt that i was just a dude, any dude, that got a lucky break.
 

DalekFlay

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Didnt being the chosen one got you released from prison in morrowind and oblivion? true, it was more of a plot hook than the theme of the game, But still, rather they just free form it at the begining and then get you involved in the stuff.
Still remember my prison "escape" in arena, was fucking awesome.

In Oblivion you just happen to be in the cell that has the secret passage. The emperor remarks that is a sign or whatever, but who knows. It's important to note that in Oblivion you could completely ignore the main quest, just like Skyrim and Morrowind. Canon of course assumed the main quest is completed, but in none of the games is it ever forced on you. You can play Oblivion and Skyrim for 200 hours and never go in an oblivion gate or fight a dragon.
 

DraQ

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That way you could keep the Imperial city in the game without having to turn the entire gameworld into the city and its immediate surroundings
The question isn't whether or not you'd want that, but what would you want your gameworld to be.

Answering "Cyrodiil" runs in a couple of problems:
- Cyrodiil is fucking huge, your game is going to be fucking tiny. Cyrodiil also is the heart of the Empire, it does not have excuse of being some backwater province of ash or snow, it needs to be portrayed as cultural and commercial centre of the Empire.
- Cyrodiil lacks focus apart from IC, if you exclude IC your game will be unfocused and hang in relative vacuum lore-wise.

Answering "a city in Cyrodiil" runs into similar problems. Scale won't be as extreme, but you run into arbitrary border problem instead and still have to deal with having to hang in relative vacuum.

You could answer "planes of Oblivion", but you'd have to deal with numerous difficulties resulting from said planes being far from friendly place and from lack of counterbalancing normalcy.

You could answer "anywhere, then the planes of Oblivion" to deal with normalcy, but that would still be difficult to pull off, although potentially interesting.

Alternatively answering "Imperial City" solves most problems:
-it's effectively everything interesting the province has to offer condensed into an area you could plausibly pull off with beth's technology.
-it is small meaning you won't need noticeable downscaling
-it is surrounded by natural barrier meaning no invisible wall
-it allows you to pool all the resources for citybuilding into one, impressive place
-it sidesteps problem of having something to fill gameworld with, one OB failed to handle
-it's already described in lore meaning you know WTF are you doing
-it's described as having a lot of z-axis and z-axis = good.
-varied types of locations are described and justified in the IC and its vicinity - entire districts built on bridges, slums underneath them, marketplaces, seweres, elven ruins (the city was built on the remains of elven citadel), a cave system or two linking to sewers and/or Ayleid ruins, abandoned fort on an island nearby that fell into disuse after the empire solidified its hold on the land, some wilderness islands not mentioned in the lore due to their small size and low importance.
-such gameworld would have relatively high water content giving waterwalking and waterbreathing a lot of utility
-you know what follows from large body of water surrounding a city built on ayleid ruin? sunken ruins and exploration, also shipwrecks
-sewers, caves and ruins could also house all sorts of hideouts and non-mainstream (as in Daedric) cults
-actually restricting levitation in a city and its immediate vicinity is far more plausible than the entire province heeding prohibition, levitation could still work in dungeons
-city could be partitioned into separate cells to lessen the load
-it would be quite ironic and symbollic to have Mythic Dawn convene in ruined Ayleid shrine under the IC itself
-it would allow sidestepping macguffin being dumped on wussy convict who might have offed emprah and said wuss breaking daedric siege at level 2

I imagine the following MQ structure:
- player witnesses the murder of one or more of emprah's sons, plus learns about conspirashun
- player starts being sought by both the MD and guard (suspected assassin) good reason to open up criminal guild opportunities without them being durr-evil options
- somewhere along the way emprah gets murdered
- somewhere along the way Kvatch gets burned, Martin escapes and arrives by boat still oblivious to who he is, he bumps into the player
- along the way player unearths evidence he needs and new information (including Martin being fucking heir).
- player needs to clean his name, convince a lot of power hungry politicians that Martin is the heir, that there is still threat posed by MD and that it's not in their best interest to attempt to grab the power
- infiltration mission from OB is squeezed somewhere there mostly unchanged
- player may get sent to planes of oblivion, traficking with neutral daedra and agents of other princes would be welcome, also "paradise"
- near the end shit hits the fan and Dagon is roflstomping the IC, player utilizes the means he has secured to thwart the threat, ending may be similar to the original, but with greater participation from the player
- Amulet of Kings may or may not feature in the plot in in any significant way

It would start relatively low-key, but already intense, it would give both player and character motivation to progress the MQ (because having to avoid all the higher class locations with well stocked shops, manors and reputable organizations due to "Halt!Halt!Halt!" with no perspective of just jailtime sucks) it wouldn't feature any of the derpy shit from OB.


From this perspective, it is easy to see where OB and Skyrim failed, narrative-wise. In particular, they both fail to incorporate the early (arguably, the most important and uplifting) part of the Monomyth, as characters are practically begging the main character to be a hero without having to undergo trials or a transformation. Taking the step from being an ordinary person to a hero is practically non-existent; there is no "threshold", so to speak. In Oblivion, the closest thing is the emperor behaving in an irrational manner and deciding to give the hero the amulet of kings against all odds during the tutorial. In Skyrim, it is absorbing the first dragon soul, which leads absolutely everyone to tell you you are dragonborn and must go for some dragon training at Camp Greybeard. From there, it's all a big rollercoaster ride to find the required macguffins and kill the big bad [Mehrunes Dagon/Alduin] and save the day.
Still, Skyrim mostly fails due to pacing, Oblivion just folds onto itself and collapses into a rising pillar of dust and debris.

In Skyrim, the protagonist defeats a dragon on his own (even though you can let the guards kill him, the story assumes you did most of the work), which makes him go from nameless witness of a dragon attack, to hero.
The important part is that you can nom their souls, I think.

It's important to note that in Oblivion you could completely ignore the main quest, just like Skyrim and Morrowind.
The thing is you cannot as it simply makes the entire logic of the gameworld fall apart.

Urgency and do whatever you want whenever you want don't mix.
 

Lhynn

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Didnt being the chosen one got you released from prison in morrowind and oblivion? true, it was more of a plot hook than the theme of the game, But still, rather they just free form it at the begining and then get you involved in the stuff.
Still remember my prison "escape" in arena, was fucking awesome.

In Oblivion you just happen to be in the cell that has the secret passage. The emperor remarks that is a sign or whatever, but who knows. It's important to note that in Oblivion you could completely ignore the main quest, just like Skyrim and Morrowind. Canon of course assumed the main quest is completed, but in none of the games is it ever forced on you. You can play Oblivion and Skyrim for 200 hours and never go in an oblivion gate or fight a dragon.
Well, the emperor saw you in a dream, and trusted you with the most important object he ever held on his life to do a quest with the fate of the empire on your hands. Note that the personal guard was with him, capable fighters and trustworthy allies of the emperor, the blades. So yeah, you were the chosen one, you were chosen by the highest authority on the empire, you and only you.

On skyrim nothing changes the fact that you are a Dragonborn, you can chose to ignore it and do whatever, but the world revolves around you so what the fuck. There is a mod there that fixes that, making being a dragonborn and the whole quest optional, but i think its still on beta.
 
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Edit: Morrowind did it right tho, i always felt that i was just a dude, any dude, that got a lucky break.

r u sure about that, bro?



In Skyrim, the protagonist defeats a dragon on his own (even though you can let the guards kill him, the story assumes you did most of the work), which makes him go from nameless witness of a dragon attack, to hero.
The important part is that you can nom their souls, I think.

The ability to nom their souls to get stronger makes you a great asset in a war against dragons :M. There is a wall in the game depicting a prophecy of sorts that speaks of Alduin's defeat, but afaik any Dragonborn or strong Thu'um user would work. The protagonist just happens to be the available one.
 
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