Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[Delterius]

Second Life as a whole is already a prosperian experiment.

 

[codexian reject]

I am sure he would somehow manage to stand out there.

 

[Delterius]

You misunderstand. The whole of Second Life Lives Long and Prosper.

 

[DalekFlay]

You'll still find a shit ton of them if you try to go on a killing spree in any major settlement. You probably won't even notice the essential NPCs if you play a nice, heroic character, but when you inevitably end up slaughtering bunch of people because of their ridiculous fake accents or some other perfectly valid reason, it's a huge mood-killer every time one of those fuckers rises up after taking a claymore to the face. Kind of sucks when you can't even murder some random small-time dude because he might be involved in some insignificant side quest that you don't give a shit about.

I've never been the type to go on killing sprees in RPGs, so yeah it barely bothers me. Way, way down on the list of shit that bugs me in Oblivion and Skyrim. That said there have certainly been a few characters here and there I wanted to kill but couldn't. I don't remember specific examples because it was really rare, but it happened.

 

[Eyeball]

Visit Little Lamplight in FO3. You will quickly find your inner spree shooter.

 

[DalekFlay]

So please enlighten me, what TES game had better dungeons than Oblivion? Daggerfall had huge procedurally generated messes of a dungeon with no interesting design, Morrowind had circular 3-4 room dwemer ruins and Skyrim has, well, corridor "dungeons" with a return shortcut. Again, I don't know whether Arena had better dungeons. Oblivion, on the other hand, had multi-leveled dungeons with actual branching in them, it could only have used more than 3 tilesets for dungeons but that is a complain about graphics, not dungeon design. And "having the best dungeons of TES games" isn't saying much really, anyway.

Oblivion had the same exit shortcuts, which were put there for both Oblivion and Skyrim because they got rid of recall and intervention spells and you can't fast travel inside. Both games do the same exact thing. There might be a few Oblivion dungeons without the shortcut exit but there are a few like that in Skyrim too, all smaller dungeons in both games.

I haven't played Daggerfall since it came out (come on DaggerXL!) so I can really only speak to Morrowind, which I thought had excellent dungeons for the most part.

Interestingly written compared to Skyrim, dumbfuck. Oblivion's writing was mediocre at best, but when a character of Skyrim opens his mouth to speak I feel downright insulted.

Skyrim's writing is ten times better than Oblivion's. Like... infinitely better. One of the big reasons I find Skyrim a lot better than Oblivion or Fallout 3 is the better writing and better world design.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

With such a sparse NPC population in those games, I usually avoid killing named people unless it's a quest. Most towns are already deserted enough.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Skyrim is, like, the most banalshitboring RPG ever. Nothing about that game is interesting in any way. The world is banalshitboring, the quests are banalshitboring, the writing is banalshitboring and even the grapphix are banalshitboring. If you see someone defending Skyrim on any grounds, you can be assured you are dealing with either a popamoler, a bethesda fanboy or a plain old retard.

There are far worse arpgs out there so you either don't play many games or this is a very clumsy brofist harvesting attempt

 

[DalekFlay]

Thing is there aren't many games like them. I could point out dozens upon dozens of flaws in Oblivion especially but when it comes right down to it I can't play Morrowind and Gothic 2 my entire life, over and over again. If you like open world explorefag games you're not drowning in options to the point you can ignore flawed releases.

It's not like shooters where there are tons upon tons of them so I can easily ignore modern shitty ones.

 

[Revenant]

Oblivion had the same exit shortcuts, which were put there for both Oblivion and Skyrim because they got rid of recall and intervention spells and you can't fast travel inside. Both games do the same exact thing. There might be a few Oblivion dungeons without the shortcut exit but there are a few like that in Skyrim too, all smaller dungeons in both games.

I haven't played Daggerfall since it came out (come on DaggerXL!) so I can really only speak to Morrowind, which I thought had excellent dungeons for the most part.

It's not shortcut exits themselves that make dungeons bad, you moron. The overall design and complexity of the dungeon is what counts in the end. This is a typical dungeon of Morrowind:

while this is an average dungeon of Oblivion:

Actually, the above dungeon is referred to as small in UESP Wiki. I suggest you take a look at Morrowind dungeons and Oblivion dungeons and make the conclusion yourself which game had more complex, well designed dungeons.

Skyrim's writing is ten times better than Oblivion's. Like... infinitely better. One of the big reasons I find Skyrim a lot better than Oblivion or Fallout 3 is the better writing and better world design.

The problem with Skyrim's writing is the absolute lack of originality and inspiration, making every quest completely forgettable in the long run. For example, Oblivion had this quest about a painter trapped in his painting by a magical brush he was using, which shows that writers of Oblivion at least had some creative aspirations for their game to stand out and be original. Not a single quest in Skyrim is memorable in this way, because everything is just unbearably boring tradishunal fantasy "go get the family dagger from dungeon X" stuff.

 

[Zewp]

With such a sparse NPC population in those games, I usually avoid killing named people unless it's a quest. Most towns are already deserted enough.

Plus it's annoying the hear some old bitch whine about her husband who you murdered in front of her a few days back.

It's amazing that RPGs 10 years ago handled such things so much better than today. I'm pretty sure that in Arcanum if I murdered an NPC I would get at least some form of reaction about it from other NPCs, unless it was a truly non-essential NPC.

 

[hakuroshi]

Killable children may have some unforseen consequences. I remember a little girl in Solitude playing tag on a battlement, slipping and falling to her death. So sad.

What was annoying is unkillable camp commanders after the Civil War ending. Also it was a pity that I could not slaughter Ulric's general who suggested I should "prove" myself by killing some insignificant critter in the middle of nowhere. After main quest, that is.

Skyrim has a lot of minor annoyances, not worth the hassle by themselves, but eventually reaching the critical mass and explode in your face.

 

[G.O.D]

Skyrim has a lot less essential NPCs.

You'll still find a shit ton of them if you try to go on a killing spree in any major settlement. You probably won't even notice the essential NPCs if you play a nice, heroic character, but when you inevitably end up slaughtering bunch of people because of their ridiculous fake accents or some other perfectly valid reason, it's a huge mood-killer every time one of those fuckers rises up after taking a claymore to the face. Kind of sucks when you can't even murder some random small-time dude because he might be involved in some insignificant side quest that you don't give a shit about.

Well it kind of makes sense. They did that because Quest-givers might get killed off by random shit otherwise, which is because of their schedules, or positioning in the wilds. (probably also because Beth didn't want you to, herp derp, miss out on content)

Morrowind sometimes gets criticism for being "static". But at least it worked and didn't have to circumvent this for the sake of "immersion".

 

[Carrion]

I've never been the type to go on killing sprees in RPGs, so yeah it barely bothers me. Way, way down on the list of shit that bugs me in Oblivion and Skyrim.

I usually don't do that either, but it's still something you should be able to do in a "go anywhere, do anything" type of game where killing things is the primary way of interacting with the game world. I can understand making a couple of absolutely plot-critical NPCs essential, because making every NPC killable puts huge restrictions on storytelling among other things, put having a bunch of seemingly insignificant immortals walking the streets of every town effectively kills any kind of simulation of an actual world. Mostly it just comes off as laziness ― certain NPCs need to be alive so that quests can be completed in the exact way that the devs intended, because no other way exists. In Morrowind it at least was possible to instantly complete or fail a quest if a certain character was dead, and in many cases there were alternate routes, although MW too got a bit lazy with the main quest in some parts (for instance, you could "fail" the main quest by killing a seemingly unrelated slave trader who would play a very small part in a later part of the main quest and whose death should in no way hinder you).

Well it kind of makes sense. They did that because Quest-givers might get killed off by random shit otherwise, which is because of their schedules, or positioning in the wilds. (probably also because Beth didn't want you to, herp derp, miss out on content)

Yes, but they already got companions that can't be killed by random shit but which can still be killed by the player. They could've just applied the same system to most quest NPCs.

I think "Radiant Story" or whatever it was called was also supposed to allow you to kill some quest givers without missing out of content by making another NPC take the part of a dead one, but I'd imagine that with voice acting it'd be nearly impossible to apply that consistently throughout the game. Personally I would've been happy with a "that guy's apparently dead, mission failed" dialogue line with side quests. The main quest and the guild questlines would need total overhauls, though, because of the constant railroading.

 

[Zewp]

Well it kind of makes sense. They did that because Quest-givers might get killed off by random shit otherwise, which is because of their schedules, or positioning in the wilds. (probably also because Beth didn't want you to, herp derp, miss out on content)

Morrowind sometimes gets criticism for being "static". But at least it worked and didn't have to circumvent this for the sake of "immersion".

Morrowind had a major issue in that you could often fuck yourself over with main story content. I went to the Andrano tomb before I got the quest for it and while I was there I picked up the Llevule Andrano skull and must have lost it later in my playthrough because when I needed it it was no longer in my inventory. I had to cheat to get past that quest.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does become a problem when you can't complete the main story because you did something as seemingly innocuous as taking an item from a tomb and then losing it.

 

[hakuroshi]

While it is easy to disrupt normal quest flow in MW MQ, you still can finish it via two backdoors (and one alchemy exploit). The problem is of course figuring them without google.

 

[Carrion]

A good rule of thumb for Morrowind is that if something has an actual name, don't throw it away. Of course you probably won't realize this when visiting your first tomb fresh out of Seyda Neen. I think I dropped the Moon-and-Star on Crassius Curio's floor on my first playthrough and forgot to pick it up.

MW would probably benefit from a spell that let you track down specifically named objects for those cases when you accidentally sell or drop a quest item. Still, I definitely prefer being able to get rid of quest items to having them permanently stuck in your inventory like in Skyrim. You may still be able to track down "lost" artifacts by visiting your favorite traders and checking their inventories.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

>Dropping named items at random locations

Nigga, the #1 rule of RPGs is that if some item has an unique name, it's important. "Skull"? Drop it, sure. "Cracked Skull"? Eh, might have to check if this is the only cracked skull around here, might be just a random adjective. "Jewel-encrusted skull"? Check the value, if it's worth 0 coins it's probably important. "Lleves Andrano's Skull"? RED FLAG. If no one told you to pick that up, leave it there.

 

[G.O.D]

Well it kind of makes sense. They did that because Quest-givers might get killed off by random shit otherwise, which is because of their schedules, or positioning in the wilds. (probably also because Beth didn't want you to, herp derp, miss out on content)

Morrowind sometimes gets criticism for being "static". But at least it worked and didn't have to circumvent this for the sake of "immersion".

Morrowind had a major issue in that you could often fuck yourself over with main story content. I went to the Andrano tomb before I got the quest for it and while I was there I picked up the Llevule Andrano skull and must have lost it later in my playthrough because when I needed it it was no longer in my inventory. I had to cheat to get past that quest.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does become a problem when you can't complete the main story because you did something as seemingly innocuous as taking an item from a tomb and then losing it.

I see. Must have been lucky then. I don't believe I ever encountered any quest breaking issues in all my time playing. At least, none come to mind.

 

[G.O.D]

I've never been the type to go on killing sprees in RPGs, so yeah it barely bothers me. Way, way down on the list of shit that bugs me in Oblivion and Skyrim.

I usually don't do that either, but it's still something you should be able to do in a "go anywhere, do anything" type of game where killing things is the primary way of interacting with the game world. I can understand making a couple of absolutely plot-critical NPCs essential, because making every NPC killable puts huge restrictions on storytelling among other things, put having a bunch of seemingly insignificant immortals walking the streets of every town effectively kills any kind of simulation of an actual world. Mostly it just comes off as laziness ― certain NPCs need to be alive so that quests can be completed in the exact way that the devs intended, because no other way exists. In Morrowind it at least was possible to instantly complete or fail a quest if a certain character was dead, and in many cases there were alternate routes, although MW too got a bit lazy with the main quest in some parts (for instance, you could "fail" the main quest by killing a seemingly unrelated slave trader who would play a very small part in a later part of the main quest and whose death should in no way hinder you).

Well it kind of makes sense. They did that because Quest-givers might get killed off by random shit otherwise, which is because of their schedules, or positioning in the wilds. (probably also because Beth didn't want you to, herp derp, miss out on content)

Yes, but they already got companions that can't be killed by random shit but which can still be killed by the player. They could've just applied the same system to most quest NPCs.

I think "Radiant Story" or whatever it was called was also supposed to allow you to kill some quest givers without missing out of content by making another NPC take the part of a dead one, but I'd imagine that with voice acting it'd be nearly impossible to apply that consistently throughout the game. Personally I would've been happy with a "that guy's apparently dead, mission failed" dialogue line with side quests. The main quest and the guild questlines would need total overhauls, though, because of the constant railroading.

I agree. Like you said yourself; If they'd implement those systems that would bring other problems to the table, even though it would be more interesting. They obviously chose the easy way, probably because of budget and deadlines.
Being able to fail a quest is nearly impossible, which is a sad state of affairs.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

To me, the problem with Oblivion isn't the size of the dungeons, as I admit I enjoyed the very first one I explored. The problem is that the architecture never changes, and so every dungeon feels quite similar to the last. The same is the trouble with the cities in Oblivion with the exception of that of the Nord. Morrowind did a great job of creating areas that seemed to have a culture and life quite distinct from other slices of the island continent. Oblivion just felt vanilla in every single way, from it's white stone cities and ruins, to the voice actors used to voice dozens of supposedly unique residents, it's Groundhog's Day closing-the-portal quests, and down to the items that could be found and employed. Oblivion wasn't a good game. However, it is a fantastic mod generator, and it is the mod community that saves it.

I haven't played Skyrim yet, so I cannot yet comment on its charms and quirks, but maybe one day. Just not one day soon.

 

[Carrion]

Morrowind does have some actual problems that may lead to fucking up your game or making you miss important parts of the game, even if you just explore and don't do anything obviously stupid like lose plot-critical items. In one Caius' quest you may miss on a huge chunk of information that is vital to the story if you speak to the wrong person at the wrong time (you're supposed to first talk to Caius who gives you an infodump about what the main quest is about and then sends you to talk to another person, but you can also go directly to that person and permanently miss all of Caius' dialogue). Some items may just disappear from the gameworld altogether if you kill a person and don't loot his corpse before it disappears. I've also heard that entering Ilunibi too early in the game may break the game, although I haven't encountered this myself. And of course you can just kill a wrong person, but at least the game tells you that you screwed up.

Then again, despite all of its railroading and forced fixes you can still break many quests in Skyrim too by being in the wrong place at the wrong time or doing stuff slightly out of order.

 

[V_K]

You're all forgetting Shivering Isles - which did have some of the best designed and most memorable dungeons of all TES games (which isn't to say much, frankly).

Fake edit: Oh, and Battlespire, being a pure dungeon crawl, was quite good in that department too.

 

[Eyeball]

To me, Daggerfall was worse, mainly because an NPC during the main quest told me to head to some location and do some hero shit. I then went on a bunch of sidequests and completely forgot where I was supposed to go, and since I didn't have the presence of mind to write it down and the quest log wasn't much help that pretty much meant the end of that game.

 

[Revenant]

To me, the problem with Oblivion isn't the size of the dungeons, as I admit I enjoyed the very first one I explored. The problem is that the architecture never changes, and so every dungeon feels quite similar to the last.

So, just like in Morrowind, huh? Dwemer ruin - after a cultist fortress - after a cave - after another dwemer ruin. Except that Oblivion's dungeons are more complex and bigger, and in this particular case bigger == better.

The same is the trouble with the cities in Oblivion with the exception of that of the Nord. Morrowind did a great job of creating areas that seemed to have a culture and life quite distinct from other slices of the island continent. Oblivion just felt vanilla in every single way, from it's white stone cities and ruins, to the voice actors used to voice dozens of supposedly unique residents, it's Groundhog's Day closing-the-portal quests, and down to the items that could be found and employed. Oblivion wasn't a good game. However, it is a fantastic mod generator, and it is the mod community that saves it.

Well, thank you, captain Obvious, for speaking a well-known truth that Oblivion is a generic and shitty game. Never have I said otherwise, it's just that Skyrim manages to be even worse than Oblivion because of a number of factors I have pointed out.

I haven't played Skyrim yet, so I cannot yet comment on its charms and quirks, but maybe one day. Just not one day soon.

Tell us about other games you haven't played, hipster.