Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[Xi]

And that's why you can't use the P&P definition on CRPGs.

Exactly. When you are interfaced with a fucking computer, it's going to be a different experience than when you interface with a GM in a PnP (Or LARP) setting. Trying to force a specific point about the live action, PnP, or LARP experience onto cRPGs is asinine and fucking retarded. Not to mention, the person has to ignore 20+ years of cRPGs that contradict what he was saying. Using his definition, Mario is an RPG.

We are trying to classify the system on this medium, and also we are trying to make sense of the unique mechanics that set it apart. Unfortunately, the definitions will be relative to the medium in which they are defined. Not understanding this makes you either a complete fucking idiot or a dumbfuck. Period.

 

[Gord]

Ah, because only in RPG characters can run into a situation where something hides in the scrubs. This is not possible in Action Adventures, Shooters etc. ofcourse. Even if it would be - what could one do?!?! Does the FPS guy run away or explore the foliage the sounds are coming from? Does the action adventure guy load his bow or take his sword?! There's like, so many possibilities!

You misunderstood the point behind the example.
It could take place at some completely different place, with a different "story".
The rpg part is not the setting (why should it? There are countless different possibilities) but the interaction between who tells the story and who plays it. In that case your role is someone traveling through the woods (if that doesn't satisfy you, imagine you have pointy ears and got hired in some tavern), encountering some kind of particularity. Now you can react to this. A story unfolds and you are part of it and influencing it.

IMHO, character development is clearly a staple of RPG's though.

Yes. Sure, you could do away with it and play with a static character, but that would be boring, wouldn't it?
You could have this even without stats, just probably not on an computer.

 

[Xi]

Yes. Sure, you could do away with it and play with a static character, but that would be boring, wouldn't it?
You could have this even without stats, just probably not on an computer.

If you had a story with lots of story-branching (player choice), and the results of each choice (consequences) actually change the game state (or the way NPCs respond to each other and the PC) at each specific choice branch, then it would be interesting. However, if we add in some stats, the system gets even better, and new gameplay opportunities are possible.

The whole point is player choice in character development and player choice in story/environment development. The player must navigate through everything, using their character, and limited to their character's abilities. The game doesn't even need to end. It just stops at some point, probably after a major quest arch. (Epic stories of chosen people are completely unnecessary - this is not supposed to be a linear book that the player just reads through either!)

It's probably important to ask what the point of gaming is before we start saying stuff like "stats are irrelevant to role playing." Stats = player choice in character development. Branching Stories = player choice in story development. Both interact and influence the choices the player should make on either side of the spectrum.

This is not PnP, where rule systems and game conflicts can be resolved in an unlimited amount of ways - only limited to the imagination of the players and GM. It's going to be a static experience, one that tries to give the illusion of the unlimitedness that we see in PnP, but ultimately cRPGs will never achieve this until AI is advanced enough to mimic a human being playing the role of a Game Master.

 

[Humanophage]

They just talk about the origins of role playing games. Rpging isn't about structured play or rules or anything else, to be perfectly frank rpging is all about LARPing, it's all about sitting around a table and ceating an interactive narrative free to do whatever you want how you want. This is what an rpg experience is all about. D&D brought stats and dice rolls and character sheets into it, then they tried making rpgs for the computer and they found out quickly that computers weren't equipped to provide an rpg experience. So they took what they could (dice rolls and character sheets and swords and fighting and exploring and whatever) and abandoned the rest. The problem is that future developers who had no idea what an rpg is filched bits and pieces from this game, and other future developers filchd other bits and pieces, Japanese developers just filched the fucking stats and slapped the rpg tag on it.

The most important thing they abandoned was of course freedom of choice and I still argue that this is the most important thing to any game which wants an rpg tag to it.

Anyway, like you I'm done arguoing on it. It's like 1 in the morning here and I still have some pages to write for NaNoWriMo.

You seem to be confusing tabletop RPGs with mimicry games in general. Tabletop RPGs have always involved statistics and historically evolved from wargames. Even 'storytelling' (e.g., 1, 2, etc.) pnp RPGs heavily employ statistics and are limited by written rules.

 

[Notorious]

If you liked Morrowind and hated Oblivion you will enjoy Skyrim.

Guess that depends on the reasons why you liked Morrowind. I had some fun in Skyrim while I was grinding smithing - scrounging mats while working towards the next armor tier gave the game purpose. Now that's maxed out along with enchanting, there's fuck all left to do. Main story doesn't interest me one bit. Side quests range from ridiculous to boring (Harry Potter University being the pinnacle of derp). Dungeons are tediously linear, writing sucks. Morrowind was boring too gameplay-wise, but the backstory and wondrous world with its mushroom palaces and insect farms kept me going. Skyrim otoh has nothing to offer in that regard.

If you enjoy traversing vast landscapes just for the sake of traversing them, though, I'm sure you can have endless fun with Skyrim. There's literally weeks and months worth of content in there. But then I don't see how you couldn't have the same fun with Oblivion.

Sums it up pretty well. And the only wow moment I had was when I first reached Blackwell, everything else just looked "nice". (So much for the amazing graphics...)

It is an average game judged as an 9-10/10 title by retards.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

So does anyone ever use any shouts other than force push? I've noticed a few occasions where fire breath or going ethereal would be useful, but I can't use them, because I'm waiting for force push to recharge and it fulfills every purpose I'd use either of those for.

 

[baronjohn]

The ethereal one is useful for jumping off cliffs/towers/mountains.

Anyway, can someone explain how magicka regen bonuses stack? I have the expert robes and the dragon priest mask and I've measured the following:

without anything: 15s
with mask only ("100 faster"): 11s
with expert robes only ("125% faster"): 10s
with expert robes and mask ("125% + 100% faster"): 8s

What the hell?

Shouldn't it be 15s / 7.5s / 6.5s / 3s ?

 

[Mayday]

Bethesda cannot into maths

 

[Nael]

The ethereal one is useful for jumping off cliffs/towers/mountains.

Anyway, can someone explain how magicka regen bonuses stack? I have the expert robes and the dragon priest mask and I've measured the following:

without anything: 15s
with mask only ("100 faster"): 11s
with expert robes only ("125% faster"): 10s
with expert robes and mask ("125% + 100% faster"): 8s

What the hell?

Shouldn't it be 15s / 7.5s / 6.5s / 3s ?

I'm wondering if the regen rate is dependant at all on your total magicka? Are those items adjusting your mana pool at all?

 

[Thrasher]

IMHO, character development is clearly a staple of RPG's though. I'm not arguing definitions, I'm arguing the history of the genre. Saying that RPGs aren't about character development is akin to saying that shooters don't require guns or projectile weapons.

To make the game even better, and to give the player the illusion of an interactive story, branching stories are a good option - and about as close to achieving PnP story telling as is possible given the medium.

This.

Also, just because Skyrim allows you to pick your hairdo and cook doesn't make it an RPG.

 

[PWSteal.Ldpinch.D]

So does anyone ever use any shouts other than force push? I've noticed a few occasions where fire breath or going ethereal would be useful, but I can't use them, because I'm waiting for force push to recharge and it fulfills every purpose I'd use either of those for.

Yeah that was my mainstay until level 20 when I found a shout that freezes time, for a good ten seconds too at basic level. It was in a cave of Forlorn(?) guys with a super hag witch that teleports away after so much damage with a battallion of normal witches pounding away at you. You end up on top of an overlook where she would give sermons and sacrifice people to the regular folk, pretty cool actually. Aside from the two summoned Frost Trolls that stay even after you kill the saggy HP bloated cow that made me use all my health potions FOR NO BLOODY ITEM REWARD :godimsomadtheyremovedthissmiley: I guess it was worth it for the view and shout.

 

[circ]

IMHO, character development is clearly a staple of RPG's though. I'm not arguing definitions, I'm arguing the history of the genre. Saying that RPGs aren't about character development is akin to saying that shooters don't require guns or projectile weapons.

To make the game even better, and to give the player the illusion of an interactive story, branching stories are a good option - and about as close to achieving PnP story telling as is possible given the medium.

This.

Also, just because Skyrim allows you to pick your hairdo and cook doesn't make it an RPG.

Sprachen of hairdos, Skyrim's hair choices were as bad as anything BiWare has done in their character generators. Why do modders make realistic hair in 2 days, but professional coders can't?

 

[SCO]

modders don't care about console limits (they barely care about limits at all, if the pc is not catching fire).

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Modders make realistic hair? All I see is anime.

 

[Luzur]

some guys made moving hair for Oblivion, if i RIC.

 

[Thrasher]

Fuck, what did I start.

Kitty fondue anyone?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Bros, has anyone posted about the fact that apparently in the lore Morrowind has gotten nuked off the map between Oblivion and Skyrim?

 

[Admiral jimbob]

It's been known for a while, it was in those novels nobody bothered to read. It's a pretty prominent factor in Skyrim, it's handled pretty well really. Still makes me sad to see the Dunmer's plight, read the book about the Fall of Tell Vos

 

[malko_sundervere]

Fuck this game.
I was doing a quest for the fucking thieves' guild or some bullshit. There's this fucking guy I'm supposed to make stop betraying us, and I'm not supposed to kill him because the Thieves' Guild would lose a contact or some other old shit. He wanted me to do a fucking fetch quest to 'bribe' him, so I said "fuck it, he dies," and tried to stab him to death.
He turns out to be FUCKING IMMORTAL. I *can't* kill him at all. He lives forever no matter how many fucking times I stab his shitty Argonian ass and... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeXDFoHrWWo
Skyrim's fucking shit. Fucking SHIT.

 

[SCO]

Full retard.

 

[Mangoose]

Actually I just noticed a "bEssentialTakeNoDamage" field in Skyrim.ini VOila, SCO.

 

[Menckenstein]

It's been known for a while, it was in those novels nobody bothered to read. It's a pretty prominent factor in Skyrim, it's handled pretty well really. Still makes me sad to see the Dunmer's plight, read the book about the Fall of Tell Vos

 

[deus101]

Fuck this game.
I was doing a quest for the fucking thieves' guild or some bullshit. There's this fucking guy I'm supposed to make stop betraying us, and I'm not supposed to kill him because the Thieves' Guild would lose a contact or some other old shit. He wanted me to do a fucking fetch quest to 'bribe' him, so I said "fuck it, he dies," and tried to stab him to death.
He turns out to be FUCKING IMMORTAL. I *can't* kill him at all. He lives forever no matter how many fucking times I stab his shitty Argonian ass and... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeXDFoHrWWo
Skyrim's fucking shit. Fucking SHIT.

The whole thief guild debacle proved shitty when i figured out i could't do the 'Ol switcharo and plant that fucking ring on that Bjornulf fag with any reactions.

Can't even turn the fag over to the guards!

Tell me...WHY can i rape and loot the brotherhood but not the thief fags?


Oh i pirated so...still KKK

 

[The King of Comedy]

I feel like giving some more detailed impressions.

Towns are just like before, empty. What happened about the whole "We'll remove pants so we can fit more characters." Another empty promise so it seems. Now NPCs have slightly more detailed schedules than sleep/stare at wall. I saw a bloke chopping wood and a piece landed in a pile next to him, seemed pretty impressive at first but upon closer inspection the pile was static and the wood simply clipped through it. There are many similarly uncanny details in the world that simply spoils the presentation.

As for swordplay. I played full mage so I didn't spend so much time in melee but from what I got you had little control on how you swept your weapons and you seemed to always be unable to move when you struck and there was some awkward auto-aiming going on. Otherwise it was about as lifeless as Oblivion. As for Magic. I kind of like the ideas of dual casting and holding to cast, they were good. But as for spell selection, I found that to be pretty thin. In the school of Destruction there were maybe three or four different distinctive types: The basic (sparks/flames) "bolt" (LB/ice spike) traps, and one for attacking several enemies at once. There might be a few more exotic variant but then I didn't find them. The elements offered some differing side effects but ultimately whether I drained a bandit's stamina or mana didn't seem to make any big difference anyway. They could have added some C&C to the perk selection as well, such as if you spec in dual casting your effective range will be reduced. Combat, while a few enemies could instagib you, bandits and the undead (which you fight 95% of the time.) were push-overs, and from what I've heard a fighting character will have an even easier time. As for the more powerful enemies the AI still ruins them. I came to a shack by a river and a lion jumped out and took a big chunk of my health, I back-peddled to the river and the poor fellow was helpless as I rained lightning on him, Cats really don't like water huh? I fought a troll in a flight of stairs near a temple, he was strong but no match for my wit. He never figured out my complex strategy of running up the stairs and then jump of a nearby ledge and start the process over again during the dozen times we did this, he also occasionally stopped and pounded the ground in a petty attempt to fright me. It didn't work. Yeah and the super fast regen health/mana is dumb.

The side-quests were trite. I didn't join any other guild than the wizard school and I have to say that the equivalent in Oblivion had a more intriguing story. They didn't even bother this time. The MQ was just going through the motions of the "EPIC HEROES JOURNEY QUEST!" And when I was sent to a forgotten, dangerous dungeon for the 16th time I had enough. The dragons? Very forgettable, though less annoying than the cliffracers.

Design. While the gfx of course weren't that great overall what bothered me the most was how washed out it all looked. While the different races all look pretty distinctive there is still something very jarring about seeing a Roman Legionnaire in the same room as a Viking. There also seems to be some kind of civil war/rebellion going on but it's way to much in the background and doesn't appear to have any significant effect on everyday life in the cities, as do the dragons. I played as a Dark Elf and believe Nords didn't really like those people particularly much but I didn't notice any prejudice from any of the natives. I guess the whole outlander crap from Morrowind would spoil their little multicult heaven and offend the new "21st Century fanbase".

Overall it was a very dull experience and any perceived differences or improvements from Oblivion would blur out the more I played. In the end the game is just the same sea of mediocrity as its predecessor that completely buries all joy and enjoyment under loads of tedium, it's playable but not cerebral or engaging the slightest.

Brief comment on UI, VA and character development: It sucks.

 

[Mr. Electric]

Oh, god, that first post is fucking idiotic.

One: the reason the College of Winterhold is so fucking HUGE and EPIC is because it's the only fucking Mages' Hall in the entire province of Skyrim. Magic is a more Elven (or Breton) thing, lore-wise, so it makes sense that there would be one huge Mage College in Skyrim, (where the Nords pride themselves in metalwork and brute combat) instead of a bunch of small guild halls around the map.

Actually, looking back at it, I like how each guild has a city instead of every city having guilds. Riften has the Thieves Guild, Whiterun has the Companions, etc.

Two: saying everything is "shit" is an opinion and does not pass as valid or meaningful criticism. See, for example: I, for one, like the combat. Prove to me how the combat is objectively "shit", and I'll Paypal you my entire savings account.

Also, to The King of Comedy:

The side-quests vary in quality. May I suggest the Companions questline in Whiterun or the Dark Brotherhood questline (various locations)? Those are pretty good. Also, the Daedric Quests are pretty great, too.