Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[attackfighter]

No, I'm saying that you are playing a series that was always strongly focusing on combat while not even offering many incentives/possibilities to play a pacifist build.

I don't know about you, but I would like stuff like sufficient speech challenges as alternative ways to complete quests.
Or quests that are not clearly dependent on hitting stuff with a big axe.

Although I guess if you are fine with larping, you will find ways to have "fun" with the game pretending to be a blacksmith or an alchemist.

But yeah, complaining is a nice thing, I like doing it, too, so why not complain about a game not being something it never was intended to be.#

Speaking about complaining, where's Skyway disappeared to? Busy playing Skyrim?

The goal of any TES game is to provide the player with freedom to do what he wants, that's basically what Bethesda focuses on and what the fans love about the series. Forcing the player into focusing on combat skills diminishes the player's freedom and provides no real benefit. You're defending an unwanted and unintentional side effect of Bethesda's recent level scaling system. It goes against the series fundamental design focus and is universally recognised as being a negative attribute.

 

[Qwertilot]

Utterly silly but I did actually do a near pacifist play through of Oblivion. Not talking mind, still looting dungeons. Just based on running past the monsters, looting the chests in the dungeons(which is instant) then running back out again with an angry mob trailing after you. More fun than the actual fighting you see.... (esp with the **** oblivion gates.).

 

[Drakron]

So you're excusing a lack of viable pacifist builds on the grounds that no one plays nonexistent pacifist builds...

Let me try this then ...

Followers.

Nothing stops you from creating a Blacksmith Enchanter extraordinaire but you need at least some skills (Restoration at least) to keep the people that are fighting for you alive.

Also there is a difference of "viable" and "broken" ... creating a character that *IS* useless is not viable and asking for the game to cater to characters that cannot simply function beyond providing services is breaking the game as any character with a minimum investment in proper skills would breeze it.

And that is really the point, the game offers latitude on what character you are making and offers much help in case your character lacks combat skills but still its more unforgiving that Oblivion since there are no classes and you no longer abused the system and the player can accidentally advance the character in a way he will have trouble in combat but, again, you have followers that can deal with the combat aspect.

 

[attackfighter]

Nothing stops you from creating a Blacksmith Enchanter extraordinaire but you need at least some skills (Restoration at least) to keep the people that are fighting for you alive.

So? You're still gimping yourself by advancing the non-combat skills.

Also there is a difference of "viable" and "broken" ... creating a character that *IS* useless is not viable and asking for the game to cater to characters that cannot simply function beyond providing services is breaking the game as any character with a minimum investment in proper skills would breeze it.

In order to not gimp non-combat oriented characters they'd simply need to remove level scaling. Removing level scaling wouldn't break the game for combat oriented characters.

And that is really the point, the game offers latitude on what character you are making and offers much help in case your character lacks combat skills but still its more unforgiving that Oblivion since there are no classes and you no longer abused the system and the player can accidentally advance the character in a way he will have trouble in combat but, again, you have followers that can deal with the combat aspect.

The only difference between Skyrim and Oblivion in this regard is that Skyrim has followers and Oblivion doesn't (or at least I don't think it did). Asides from that you're still forced into a combat oriented approach despite there being tons of non-combat content.

 

[Gord]

In order to not gimp non-combat oriented characters they'd simply need to remove level scaling. Removing level scaling wouldn't break the game for combat oriented characters.

You would still likely be confined to the towns and the starting area, as the rest of Skyrim would be to dangerous - see Gothic.

 

[attackfighter]

In order to not gimp non-combat oriented characters they'd simply need to remove level scaling. Removing level scaling wouldn't break the game for combat oriented characters.

You would still likely be confined to the towns and the starting area, as the rest of Skyrim would be to dangerous - see Gothic.

Or it would be like Morrowind, where you could go anywhere (outside of dungeons and ghost fence) at level 1, just so long as you were cautious and came prepared.

 

[Qwertilot]

So you're restricted to the lower levels until you level up your combat skills a bit. So long as you don't level scale those areas surely no one could complain?

The thing is that, especially in the elder scrolls games, character level is potentially a really poor estimate of actual power in combat. So why not let the player control it?

Ok so its only really (potentially) game breaking if you aggressively level scale everywhere like Oblivion, but it still must be annoying to know that a lot of dungeons are X levels tougher just because you leveled some non combat skills or even just multiple different ways to fight.
(and I really don't see why you need it when say Nehrim and OOO seemed to work very well without.).

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

I don't think the level scaling's quite that bad. I'm a level 14 mage, but most of that was gained purely through Enchanting, Alchemy and Conjuration. Basic spells are still proving perfectly viable if I choose to use them.


The first Fury spells only goes up to lvl 9, but it's worked on everything but the strongest boss monsters.

 

[Metro]

Pacifist build... in a hack and slash ARPG? Get serious.

... and came prepared.

Translation: Abuse the horribly broken enchanting and alchemy systems to make yourself godlike. What the fuck is it with people's needs to go everywhere at level one?

 

[Drakron]

So? You're still gimping yourself by advancing the non-combat skills.

Yes and no, there are some advantages to non-combat skills, the issue arises from Player-Created gear falling behind in Game-Created gear.

In order to not gimp non-combat oriented characters they'd simply need to remove level scaling. Removing level scaling wouldn't break the game for combat oriented characters.

There are a lot of issues, your solution is not a solution because what you create is a "you must be this tall to rise" entry level for quests and you (not really) solve the issue by overleveling your non-combat character.

Nothing that can be solved using your solution in level scaling by adding caps to level scaling.

The only difference between Skyrim and Oblivion in this regard is that Skyrim has followers and Oblivion doesn't (or at least I don't think it did).

That is a important difference because Oblivion leveled EVERYTHING to your level, even if there were caps there was lack of caps (bandits wearing high level gear) that completely fucked up the efforts to maintain limits.

Also if you played as intended in Oblivion it would create a difficulty barrier that you could not breach because everything was leveled to you.

Skyrim also levels your followers (or should) and since you can give then gear you have someone that can handle combat even if your character cannot, that was impossible if Oblivion without mods.

Asides from that you're still forced into a combat oriented approach despite there being tons of non-combat content.

Except you can create a support character without being a Conjurer, in Oblivion if you wanted to play a character that did not used direct attacks your only choice was Conjurer.

That is the key difference, unless you are harping about being impossible to avoid combat in Skyrim but that been true to ALL Elder Scrolls games and the overwhelming vast majority of RPGs, again no game should ever cater to useless characters.

 

[Metro]

Hey bro, what if I want to be an overweight merchant that has no charisma, magic, or fighting skills at all?!?! Seriously, if a critique of a game involves trying to shoehorn it into something it fundamentally isn't then it is mere argument for argument sake. Might as well complain about there being no strategic resource management in Secret of Monkey Island.

 

[attackfighter]

Pacifist build... in a hack and slash ARPG? Get serious.

... and came prepared.

Translation: Abuse the horribly broken enchanting and alchemy systems to make yourself godlike. What the fuck is it with people's needs to go everywhere at level one?

Finding some decent weapons and armour (doesn't even have to be enchanted) as well as stocking up on a few scrolls or potions for really tough fights works too.

Seriously, if a critique of a game involves trying to shoehorn it into something it fundamentally isn't

Fundamentally TES is based around exploration, with some amounts of combat, alchemy, stealth, dialogue and crafting thrown in. Level scaling screws characters who focus on non-combat content, despite it being a fraction of the games focus.

 

[Gord]

Finding some decent weapons and armour (doesn't even have to be enchanted) as well as stocking up on a few scrolls or potions for really tough fights works too.

Most likely by using meta-knowledge about the game - there's a good chance this will help in Skyrim, too, but what do you expect after just one week?

Fundamentally TES is based around exploration, with massive amounts of combat, and some alchemy, stealth, negligible dialogue and crafting thrown in. Level scaling screws characters who focus on non-combat content, because it's a fraction of the games that is only there to support its true focus: exploration and killing stuff.

Fixed. Besides, there was level scaling in Morrowind, too.

 

[Satan]

i finally played skyrim and it's totally forgettable and banal and boring experience. seriously, i just don't feel like playing it again. it's not supershit, it just make an empty feeling within me, i don't feel anything while playing it. ii love to explore, but there is level scalling that fucks everything up, dialogues are something i don't want to bother with and the plot is so bad i don't even know what the fuck.the music is annoying, so i turned it off and... well... i just feel the same while playing this game as if i was staring into an empty monitor. seriously, no other game ever managed to be THAT mediocre.

 

[Gord]

So Konjad, you will continue playing DA2 then?

 

[attackfighter]

Most likely by using meta-knowledge about the game - there's a good chance this will help in Skyrim, too, but what do you expect after just one week?

No, not at all. I'm talking about a modest amount of equipment here, gathered by a player who's taken his time to hone his non-combat skills and do some combat-free quests. He isn't relegated to a small group of towns and starting locations as you earlier claimed he was.

Fundamentally TES is based around exploration, with massive amounts of combat, and some alchemy, stealth, negligible dialogue and crafting thrown in. Level scaling screws characters who focus on non-combat content, because it's a fraction of the games that is only there to support its true focus: exploration and killing stuff.

Wrong.

Fixed. Besides, there was level scaling in Morrowind, too.

It was very, very limited though.

 

[Metro]

Fundamentally TES is based around exploration, with some amounts of combat...

'Some?' It's basically been (at LEAST) half of all TES games. Not that I'm defending level scaling, it shouldn't exist, period.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Nothing stops you from creating a Blacksmith Enchanter extraordinaire but you need at least some skills (Restoration at least) to keep the people that are fighting for you alive.

So? You're still gimping yourself by advancing the non-combat skills.

Isn't that the way it should be? Characters that focus on non-combat skills not being as efficient in combat as characters that focus on combat?

(still, with so many combat skills in TES, you really have to go out of your way to make a non-combat character)

Hey bro, what if I want to be an overweight merchant that has no charisma, magic, or fighting skills at all?!?!

 

[attackfighter]

Nothing stops you from creating a Blacksmith Enchanter extraordinaire but you need at least some skills (Restoration at least) to keep the people that are fighting for you alive.

So? You're still gimping yourself by advancing the non-combat skills.

Isn't that the way it should be? Characters that focus on non-combat skills not being as efficient in combat as characters that focus on combat?

(still, with so many combat skills in TES, you really have to go out of your way to make a non-combat character)

Yes, but that's not my point. It's not that combat characters advance in combat skill while non-combat characters remain static, it's that non-combat players are actively making themselves worse at combat due to level scaling.

'Some?' It's basically been (at LEAST) half of all TES games. Not that I'm defending level scaling, it shouldn't exist, period.

I'd disagree. In Oblivion and Skyrim that's true, but in Morrowind there were tons of city based quests and areas to explore. Most of the quests in Morrowind didn't involve combat, for example (most involved stealth or fed ex). And as far as the combat in Morrowind goes; it was mostly just a sideshow, not the main attraction. You might go into a daedric shrine and get into a fight, but the point wasn't the fight itself, it was to explore the ruins. Fighting was important only because it added a sense of danger, but it wasn't the focus of the game.

 

[Satan]

So Konjad, you will continue playing DA2 then?

yes

 

[roll-a-die]

Nothing stops you from creating a Blacksmith Enchanter extraordinaire but you need at least some skills (Restoration at least) to keep the people that are fighting for you alive.

So? You're still gimping yourself by advancing the non-combat skills.

Isn't that the way it should be? Characters that focus on non-combat skills not being as efficient in combat as characters that focus on combat?

(still, with so many combat skills in TES, you really have to go out of your way to make a non-combat character)

Yes, but that's not my point. It's not that combat characters advance in combat skill while non-combat characters remain static, it's that non-combat players are actively making themselves worse at combat due to level scaling.

'Some?' It's basically been (at LEAST) half of all TES games. Not that I'm defending level scaling, it shouldn't exist, period.

I'd disagree. In Oblivion and Skyrim that's true, but in Morrowind there were tons of city based quests and areas to explore. Most of the quests in Morrowind didn't involve combat, for example (most involved stealth or fed ex). And as far as the combat in Morrowind goes; it was mostly just a sideshow, not the main attraction. You might go into a daedric shrine and get into a fight, but the point wasn't the fight itself, it was to explore the ruins. Fighting was important only because it added a sense of danger, but it wasn't the focus of the game.

In Skyrim half my quests so far have been go pick up this item. It's only when you get to the factions that the quests get combat filled. This was true for the mid to late stage quests in morrowind as well.

Go here, clean this ruin of people to retrieve this dwemer puzzlebox. Go down to the coast follow it for 60 paces until you hit a small bay then head east inland until you hit a pond on the westernly side of that pond is a cave, clear it of monsters and retrieve my grandfathers bow. Go here clean this ruin of enemies and retrieve this book, so you can have Dwemer creatures guarding your mushroom tower. Yes you could stealth through these missions, if you were the sneaky sort, but it was rare for quests to be written such that the stealthy method was inherent. This generally came up in the thieves guild quests, which resorted to go here kill these people type quests towards the end, as well. Namely go here and kill these two enforcers, or go here and kill this head of a the vivec fighters guild.

 

[crufty]

I've had quite a few non combat quests.

I have quite a few dungeons that weren't level scaled.

Apparently the ice troll is a menace to all.

So I have stricken level scaling off the list as a concern. It's non obvious, so far. Though I have much more main quest to do.

 

[Turjan]

Go here, clean this ruin of people to retrieve this dwemer puzzlebox.

Funny enough, the dwemer puzzlebox was somewhere near the entrance of the dungeon. You had to kill three opponents max. Exploring the vast ruin beyond that was completely optional. Although you probably did, because it's easy to take the wrong turn.

Morrowind had also lots of quests that could be solved without fight. No idea how Skyrim compares.

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Never in my life would I think to see Torneko posted on the Codex.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

The Codex is full of fucking hypocrites. Just saying.