Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[Metro]

Semantics. As mentioned, stealth and speechcraft allowed you to handle many quests but the majority required combat or... let's say... put you in combat situations. Could you run around and avoid enemies? Sure but that's stretching the definition. Hell you could probably get to the level cap in a game like World of Warcraft without attacking anything but I don't think anyone would seriously argue the game isn't primarily about combat.

You can't just shoehorn it into 'exploration' -- there were very few places (outside of cities) you could explore that didn't at least put you into combat situations (again, not counting taking the option to run from everything as a legitimate game play option it's simply e-LARPing). I'm also pretty sure (if I remember right) that you couldn't complete the main quest by avoiding combat unlike say... Fallout... or hell even Fallout 3.

Regarding the 'sense of danger' argument, you can't really have true exploration without it. Otherwise you have a... wait for it... hiking simulator.

 

[attackfighter]

Semantics. As mentioned, stealth and speechcraft allowed you to handle many quests but the majority required combat or... let's say... put you in combat situations. Could you run around and avoid enemies? Sure but that's stretching the definition. Hell you could probably get to the level cap in a game like World of Warcraft without attacking anything but I don't think anyone would seriously argue the game isn't primarily about combat.

You're wrong, and I have examples to prove it:

Thief guild has 27/30 quests which are non-combat oriented.

Mage guild has 19/33 non combat oriented quests.

House Hlaalu has 23/31 non-combat quests.

The Imperial Cult has 13/25 non-combat missions.

Of course if you moved on to traditionally more violent guilds like the Fighters Guild or Camonna Tong then you'd of course get a higher ratio of combat oriented quests. But this at least proves that there's plentiful non-combat content for those who wish to pursue it.

You can't just shoehorn it into 'exploration' -- there were very few places (outside of cities) you could explore that didn't at least put you into combat situations (again, not counting taking the option to run from everything as a legitimate game play option it's simply e-LARPing). I'm also pretty sure (if I remember right) that you couldn't complete the main quest by avoiding combat unlike say... Fallout... or hell even Fallout 3.

But you're not confined to cities. Even if you initially focus on non-combat content, you'll still gain enough treasures from it that you'll be well enough equipped to venture out stronger than you were at level one. Worst case scenario is that you don't gain treasures, in which case you'd still be no worse off than you were at level one. This is in contrast to Oblivion or Skyrim where if you initially focus on non-combat content you'll become outclassed by all of the level scaled opponents (of which there are many) and so you're being actively punished simply for partaking in legitimate content.

Regarding the 'sense of danger' argument, you can't really have true exploration without it. Otherwise you have a... wait for it... hiking simulator.

I never said I was opposed to combat or a sense of danger. Also Skyrim actively subverts the sense of danger due to the fact that it scales most enemies so that they don't pose much threat. The only times I've died in Skyrim have been to the non-level scaled giants and mammoths (who don't attack you on sight, therefore not giving you a sense of danger regardless of their strength) or when I made major mistakes in combat. The aggressive enemies have been conveniently scaled to be the equivalents of regular Draugers when I was level 1, restless Drauger at level 10 and Drauger Whites at level 20 - or something along those lines. They don't pose any threat whatsoever, Skyrim may focus on the combat but it definately doesn't provide the player with a sense of vulnerability the way Morrowind did.

 

[Data4]

Arrow go up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE4uzGaQ ... r_embedded

Arrow go down.

 

[kris]

I never said I was opposed to combat or a sense of danger. Also Skyrim actively subverts the sense of danger due to the fact that it scales most enemies so that they don't pose much threat. The only times I've died in Skyrim have been to the non-level scaled giants and mammoths (who don't attack you on sight, therefore not giving you a sense of danger regardless of their strength) or when I made major mistakes in combat. The aggressive enemies have been conveniently scaled to be the equivalents of regular Draugers when I was level 1, restless Drauger at level 10 and Drauger Whites at level 20 - or something along those lines. They don't pose any threat whatsoever, Skyrim may focus on the combat but it definately doesn't provide the player with a sense of vulnerability the way Morrowind did.

Do you tailor your character for combat? I mostly played on adept and I found a lot of opponents that could kill me or did kill me over the course of my playing. My character is more balanced in his skills though. Several wizrads, several different bosses (especially wizards and two-handers), some bears (barerly survived against two bears by jumping between two hills.), trolls.

 

[attackfighter]

I never said I was opposed to combat or a sense of danger. Also Skyrim actively subverts the sense of danger due to the fact that it scales most enemies so that they don't pose much threat. The only times I've died in Skyrim have been to the non-level scaled giants and mammoths (who don't attack you on sight, therefore not giving you a sense of danger regardless of their strength) or when I made major mistakes in combat. The aggressive enemies have been conveniently scaled to be the equivalents of regular Draugers when I was level 1, restless Drauger at level 10 and Drauger Whites at level 20 - or something along those lines. They don't pose any threat whatsoever, Skyrim may focus on the combat but it definately doesn't provide the player with a sense of vulnerability the way Morrowind did.

Do you tailor your character for combat? I mostly played on adept and I found a lot of opponents that could kill me or did kill me over the course of my playing. My character is more balanced in his skills though. Several wizrads, several different bosses (especially wizards and two-handers), some bears (barerly survived against two bears by jumping between two hills.), trolls.

I play as a pure mage and basically just kite all of my opponents. THe only difficulty I ever had was that I sometimes ran out of mana earlier on in the game, but that was a pretty meaningless obstacle considering I always had a dozen or so mana potions on hand. Oh and I play on adept, too.

 

[hoopy]

Morrowind had also lots of quests that could be solved without fight. No idea how Skyrim compares.

What I've noticed is that you can rarely if ever talk your way through non-quest encounters with hostile NPCs. Like when you rescue that guy in the spiderweb, he just runs off and there's no opportunity to convince him to help you or leave. Or when you go into the Ratway and encounter some dudes, they just attack you immediately without bothering to find out who you are and what you're doing there.

All the speechcraft opportunities feel arbitrary and tacked-on, like they aren't supposed to be there. You use them so rarely.

 

[Gord]

Also Skyrim actively subverts the sense of danger due to the fact that it scales most enemies so that they don't pose much threat. The only times I've died in Skyrim have been to the non-level scaled giants and mammoths (who don't attack you on sight, therefore not giving you a sense of danger regardless of their strength) or when I made major mistakes in combat.

You sure you didn't buy Oblivion by accident?

I've sure met a lot of enemies that posed a serious threat to me, so not what yo are doing, especially given your bitching about how you can't play a pacifist character - your "pacifist" build seems pretty combat oriented to me.

All the speechcraft opportunities feel arbitrary and tacked-on, like they aren't supposed to be there. You use them so rarely.

Behtesda either doesn't care or simply lacks the talent to integrate speech in a meaningful way into their games.
Although it used to have a bit more use in Morrowind.
A pity really...

 

[Data4]

Morrowind had also lots of quests that could be solved without fight. No idea how Skyrim compares.

What I've noticed is that you can rarely if ever talk your way through non-quest encounters with hostile NPCs.

You did say "rarely", so maybe this is just one of those rare instances, but...

Spoiler

The quest with the Redguard mercs looking for a girl ends with a fight or parley and deal situation. Not sure if there are any long-term consequences to the decision (doubtful), but I chose to hand her over to the mercs. Assuming they're speaking the truth, she betrayed her city in Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion and is wanted by the Hammerfell Nobles for treason. Seeing as how I hate the Dominion, I took them at their word. The alternative is to fight 6 guys of unknown strength in a bandit cave.

 

[hoopy]

Well that's a quest. I was referring to situations that aren't a quest, like the spiderweb guy. You run into some asshole, and instead of being able to talk to him you are forced to fight him because there are no other options.

 

[Data4]

Well that's a quest. I was referring to situations that aren't a quest, like the spiderweb guy. You run into some asshole, and instead of being able to talk to him you are forced to fight him because there are no other options.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, enemies are enemies as designed. Pretty much been that way in all Bethesda games. The only thing even coming close is yielding to guards after you've been caught doing something wrong.

 

[Mortmal]

The truth is people love so much skyrim on the codex that polls about it or refering to it, anything showing an overwhelming majority like it , are retardoed. Todd howard has won omg!
Level scaling never been done better, remember in oblivion bandits had the exact same level as you and the exact same gear , wich completely broke the immersion for anyone, no such thing in skyrim, you may find one good item while clearing a whole dungeon, a piece of armor maybe and that piece is still inferior to what you craft yourself by collecting mats and enchanting, vastly inferior even if you raise enchanting and forging skills
Frankly the only drawback of skyrim is the story , it is not as mature as something like game of throne, while it still honorable and above lot of fantasy games that get a free pass on the codex.

 

[hoopy]

Game of Thrones? Mature? It's so shitty that it makes Dragon Age 2 look like Lord of the Rings.

 

[attackfighter]

Well that's a quest. I was referring to situations that aren't a quest, like the spiderweb guy. You run into some asshole, and instead of being able to talk to him you are forced to fight him because there are no other options.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, enemies are enemies as designed. Pretty much been that way in all Bethesda games. The only thing even coming close is yielding to guards after you've been caught doing something wrong.

No. In Morrowind there are highwaymen who demand gold or your life, NPC's who challenge you to duels and people who if you offend (not the same as "taunt") will attack you. That's off the top of my head.

ANd if you're looking for moments where speech skill is actually used, there're tons of moments where your standing with an NPC will effect the amount of information he/she is willing to divulge on a subject. And there are also many quests that can be solved through speech, of course.

 

[ricolikesrice]

what i dont get is why people who like huge worlds to explore and can even forgive a few flaws for doing so ..... well why do they play TES games instead of trying out MMORPG which imho do the "TES gameplay" much better ?

i mean from the biggest hater to the biggest apologist i think we can all agree on that storytelling and world-changing quests arent exactly Bethesda s forte and i doubt it suddenly became in Skyrim ( i havent played it yet btw and am not trying to bash on it, hell based on the "proper morrowind sequel" vibe i ve been getting i might check the GOTY/modded version out sometime ) and thats the biggest weakness of MMORPGs ... but heck as far as i m concerned some quests/story-bits and writing i encountered in MMORPGs been far better than not only what bethesda but even what bioware (okay those arent exactly high standards :p) had to offer.

so what do these games/Skyrim offer that MMORPGs dont ?

-explore a huge world ? good MMORPGs have far bigger worlds with far more variety and far better designed dungeons.

-combat & character development ? pretty much any MMORPG eats skyrim for breakfast in this department. mostly because bethesda doesnt give a rats ass about balance in their singleplayer game while MMORPGs have to be remotely well-balanced if only for the PVP crowd.

-loot ? TES games are awful in this department , especially after oblivion (and what i m reading of skyrim) scale loot tables to player level (correct me if i m wrong regarding skyrim) .... meanwhile Loot is they key factor in MMORPGs so they usually do it very well.

the only advtange i could see in TES favour would be:

1. its only you playing and you ll never meet random internet morons (which you can happily ignore most of the time in MMORPGs - you might miss out on some group specific content but most semi-recent MMORPGs are entirely playable "solo" for the largest part)

2. you only pay once (hahaha, DLC, hahaha ) opposed to a monthly fee. then again plenty of MMORPGs have free trials or are entirely free (unless you desperatly crave pink hats) to play and even if there s a monthly sub ..... is 10 bucks really that much if you can get 100 hours of fun for it ? unless you buy a MMORPG at release the base game is usually free/cheap pretty quick.

3. modding in penises and animated gay sex/sodomy (ok thats a huge drawback but you could just use TES games for mastrurbation purposes and then play a MMORPG until you re ready for the next act of digital perversion )

honestly, what am i missing when people say they "enjoy TES games because there s nothing else like it" ? from where i m standing there s dozens of similar but much better (combat, exploration, balance, loot, challenge, crafting size, variety etc.) games whether its age of conan, guildwars, warhammer online, DDO, whatever, that despite being MMORPGs can be played just like a solo game except that you might encounter R4Nd0M R3T4RD once in a while and can only tackle group content once you outleveled it.

the way they play TES games are like "offline MMORPGs" that are inferior to their online counterparts in pretty much every single way , yet they are soo freaking popular, whats the catch ? why would guildwars 2 never create that much buzz around here despite most likely being an in every way superior game (that doesnt even charge monthly) ? if you go "apples and oranges" please explain why.

 

[Satan]

ricolikesrice, these people are just apologist moronic consoletards who enjoy shit and struggle to find a reason in their dumbfuckery

 

[hoopy]

Guild Wars 2 will give benefits to players who played the first game a lot, so unfortunately it'll be shit and not even worth thinking about.

I dunno about other MMOs, but there is no exploration in WoW. Everything is in plain sight, you won't find anything cool by poking around. Even if you do it's just something useless like an empty building.

 

[J_C]

what i dont get is why people who like huge worlds to explore and can even forgive a few flaws for doing so ..... well why do they play TES games instead of trying out MMORPG which imho do the "TES gameplay" much better ?

i mean from the biggest hater to the biggest apologist i think we can all agree on that storytelling and world-changing quests arent exactly Bethesda s forte and i doubt it suddenly became in Skyrim ( i havent played it yet btw and am not trying to bash on it, hell based on the "proper morrowind sequel" vibe i ve been getting i might check the GOTY/modded version out sometime ) and thats the biggest weakness of MMORPGs ... but heck as far as i m concerned some quests/story-bits and writing i encountered in MMORPGs been far better than not only what bethesda but even what bioware (okay those arent exactly high standards :p) had to offer.

so what do these games/Skyrim offer that MMORPGs dont ?

-explore a huge world ? good MMORPGs have far bigger worlds with far more variety and far better designed dungeons.

-combat & character development ? pretty much any MMORPG eats skyrim for breakfast in this department. mostly because bethesda doesnt give a rats ass about balance in their singleplayer game while MMORPGs have to be remotely well-balanced if only for the PVP crowd.

-loot ? TES games are awful in this department , especially after oblivion (and what i m reading of skyrim) scale loot tables to player level (correct me if i m wrong regarding skyrim) .... meanwhile Loot is they key factor in MMORPGs so they usually do it very well.

the only advtange i could see in TES favour would be:

1. its only you playing and you ll never meet random internet morons (which you can happily ignore most of the time in MMORPGs - you might miss out on some group specific content but most semi-recent MMORPGs are entirely playable "solo" for the largest part)

2. you only pay once (hahaha, DLC, hahaha ) opposed to a monthly fee. then again plenty of MMORPGs have free trials or are entirely free (unless you desperatly crave pink hats) to play and even if there s a monthly sub ..... is 10 bucks really that much if you can get 100 hours of fun for it ? unless you buy a MMORPG at release the base game is usually free/cheap pretty quick.

3. modding in penises and animated gay sex/sodomy (ok thats a huge drawback but you could just use TES games for mastrurbation purposes and then play a MMORPG until you re ready for the next act of digital perversion )

honestly, what am i missing when people say they "enjoy TES games because there s nothing else like it" ? from where i m standing there s dozens of similar but much better (combat, exploration, balance, loot, challenge, crafting size, variety etc.) games whether its age of conan, guildwars, warhammer online, DDO, whatever, that despite being MMORPGs can be played just like a solo game except that you might encounter R4Nd0M R3T4RD once in a while and can only tackle group content once you outleveled it.

the way they play TES games are like "offline MMORPGs" that are inferior to their online counterparts in pretty much every single way , yet they are soo freaking popular, whats the catch ? why would guildwars 2 never create that much buzz around here despite most likely being an in every way superior game (that doesnt even charge monthly) ? if you go "apples and oranges" please explain why.

On a personal note, I don't like most of the MMOs, because the quests are more boring than even in the worst TES game. MMO quests consists of fetch quests and kill xy type of stuff for the most part. At least that was my personal experience with these games. Also, the combat system is nothing more than spamming different types of abitlites one after another (although Age of Conan is better in this regard).

 

[attackfighter]

@ricolikesrice

Morrowind (and probably Daggerfell) both gave the player more freedom than MMO's do. Levitation, fortifying athletics and/or acrobatics to ridiculous levels, abusing alchemy and enchantment. The setting of Morrowind was also unique, so you can't really mimic the experience by playing other games let alone MMORPGs. Also MMO's generally have shitty graphics, where as the last 3 TES games have had average graphics for their times. Other stuff too.

 

[Johannes]

Also, the combat system is nothing more than spamming different types of abitlites one after another (although Age of Conan is better in this regard).

As if single player RPGs are any different...

 

[Notorious]

@ricolikesrice what a post

Why I "prefer" Skyrim over MMOs? (And for me Skyrim is a 5/10 game)

-Grinding is not forced upon you.
-After 25 hours I played this game I'm done with it, in an MMO I wouldn't have achieved anything in that time (Maybe reached lvl 20 or so)
-I see dungeons traveling there alone

So the prime reason is that it is shorter and I can see dungeons without having to join a group full of random morons. This is the main problem with MMOs after I played WoW for 200 hours I can't play an MMO similar to that anymore (The same goes for more open MMOs like UO which I also played 200+ hours)

 

[Data4]

what i dont get is why people who like huge worlds to explore and can even forgive a few flaws for doing so ..... well why do they play TES games instead of trying out MMORPG which imho do the "TES gameplay" much better ?

i mean from the biggest hater to the biggest apologist i think we can all agree on that storytelling and world-changing quests arent exactly Bethesda s forte and i doubt it suddenly became in Skyrim ( i havent played it yet btw and am not trying to bash on it, hell based on the "proper morrowind sequel" vibe i ve been getting i might check the GOTY/modded version out sometime ) and thats the biggest weakness of MMORPGs ... but heck as far as i m concerned some quests/story-bits and writing i encountered in MMORPGs been far better than not only what bethesda but even what bioware (okay those arent exactly high standards :p) had to offer.

so what do these games/Skyrim offer that MMORPGs dont ?

-explore a huge world ? good MMORPGs have far bigger worlds with far more variety and far better designed dungeons.

-combat & character development ? pretty much any MMORPG eats skyrim for breakfast in this department. mostly because bethesda doesnt give a rats ass about balance in their singleplayer game while MMORPGs have to be remotely well-balanced if only for the PVP crowd.

-loot ? TES games are awful in this department , especially after oblivion (and what i m reading of skyrim) scale loot tables to player level (correct me if i m wrong regarding skyrim) .... meanwhile Loot is they key factor in MMORPGs so they usually do it very well.

the only advtange i could see in TES favour would be:

1. its only you playing and you ll never meet random internet morons (which you can happily ignore most of the time in MMORPGs - you might miss out on some group specific content but most semi-recent MMORPGs are entirely playable "solo" for the largest part)

2. you only pay once (hahaha, DLC, hahaha ) opposed to a monthly fee. then again plenty of MMORPGs have free trials or are entirely free (unless you desperatly crave pink hats) to play and even if there s a monthly sub ..... is 10 bucks really that much if you can get 100 hours of fun for it ? unless you buy a MMORPG at release the base game is usually free/cheap pretty quick.

3. modding in penises and animated gay sex/sodomy (ok thats a huge drawback but you could just use TES games for mastrurbation purposes and then play a MMORPG until you re ready for the next act of digital perversion )

honestly, what am i missing when people say they "enjoy TES games because there s nothing else like it" ? from where i m standing there s dozens of similar but much better (combat, exploration, balance, loot, challenge, crafting size, variety etc.) games whether its age of conan, guildwars, warhammer online, DDO, whatever, that despite being MMORPGs can be played just like a solo game except that you might encounter R4Nd0M R3T4RD once in a while and can only tackle group content once you outleveled it.

the way they play TES games are like "offline MMORPGs" that are inferior to their online counterparts in pretty much every single way , yet they are soo freaking popular, whats the catch ? why would guildwars 2 never create that much buzz around here despite most likely being an in every way superior game (that doesnt even charge monthly) ? if you go "apples and oranges" please explain why.

I dunno about anyone else, but I play Skyrim for the sole purpose of pissing this guy off.

 

[crufty]

I am a curmudgeon who doesn't want to talk to other people.

Some highwayman have demanded gold from me. That resulted in a bandit tpk. I was like oh no you didn't! Nows youse cants leaves. *snik*

The ratway encounters. Those dudes are obviously bad guys. But still.

overall I do agree if there was more verbal exchange it would be more gameplay. It seems like a good speech oppty, even if it's "hey, if you know what's good for you, get away" (persuade) let me through (intimidate) oh yeah? Says who? (bribe) xxx gp says you forgot what you saw. * sorry to intrude. Etc.


Not a huge nit. Some of the quests have been pretty fun, steeped in lore with foreshadowing. I am not sure if there are multiple resolution paths.

 

[hoopy]

I haven't played Skyrim very extensively yet because I spent most of my time doing stuff around Whiterun and Riften, and then I started a new character.

But now I went to Windhelm, and as soon as I enter two guys are threatening to gangrape a dark elf woman. I politely disagree by killing them right then and there, except one of them cannot be killed at all. He's apparently some kind of important NPC.

What. The. Fuck.

So this is the famous "freedom" you get in TES. Pathetic.

Edit: you know what, fuck this game. I'm uninstalling.

 

[ricolikesrice]

@ricolikesrice

Morrowind (and probably Daggerfell) both gave the player more freedom than MMO's do. Levitation, fortifying athletics and/or acrobatics to ridiculous levels, abusing alchemy and enchantment. The setting of Morrowind was also unique, so you can't really mimic the experience by playing other games let alone MMORPGs. Also MMO's generally have shitty graphics, where as the last 3 TES games have had average graphics for their times. Other stuff too.

fair points. i think making ridicoulus spells was the 2nd most important thing (after the great unique "alien" setting) for me in morrowind. unfortunately neither skyrim / oblivion have either.

on the graphics front i thought Age of Conan and WAR did pretty well. personally i really enjoyed the graphic/art of WAR but that could be the warhammer fan bias - some great locations there and enemy/armor design

I dunno about other MMOs, but there is no exploration in WoW. Everything is in plain sight, you won't find anything cool by poking around. Even if you do it's just something useless like an empty building.

how long did you play WoW to come to that conclusion ? 30 minutes ? i know its oh-so-popular to bash on everything thats popular but WoW in particular has (i played it before the first addon though, dunno if things changed much for the worse but doubt it) some really great area design that favoured exploration gameplay. and for me exploration is the biggest reason i play RPGs (my favourite ones are Realms of Arcania 1&2, Wiz 7 and Ultima Underworld -perhaps to be replaced by Dark Souls but i m not finished yet ) so i m giving credit where its due...

MMO quests consists of fetch quests and kill xy type of stuff for the most part

same for TES or pretty much 95% of cRPG quests in general. only that MMORPGs make it more obvious, i.e. "kill 10 zombies for me" opposed to "go to my house and free it of the undead menace!" (kill 10 zombies for me). actually even that is bullshit since most recent MMORPGs made quite a push in writing better quests so the "kill x" is just the short quest description in the UI.

lots of MMORPG quests are also damn good but i ll agree there s plenty of filler, but its not much worse than in singleplayer cRPGs unless you by MMORPGs mean some obscure korean shit.

Also, the combat system is nothing more than spamming different types of abitlites one after another

no just no. every single MMORPG i ve played had easily 10times the depth & challenge of NOWADAYS singleplayer cRPGs . of course if all you ever do is attacking enemies trivial to your character it might not become apparent but fighting challenging enemies is actually challenging in any good MMORPG and these "challenging" enemies cannot be spammed to dead. you dont judge a single player RPGs combat on how easy it is to kill enemies 5 lvls below you - why are MMORPGs judged that way ? there s lots of challenge for players who seek it.

-Grinding is not forced upon you.

and WHO forces you to grind in MMORPGs ?you can easily go from 1-60 in WoW without grinding a single minute just by exploring and doing quests (WoW just being the most popular example) . of course grinding easy enemies that can barely touch you often is the most efficient way to level up / gain loot .... but who forces you to play like that ? may i remind you that in Morrowind you could level up by doing nothing but jumping around like a retard for hours upon hours ? or casting the same single spell over and over for hours ? i m pretty sure the later was/is more efficient then going around the world and exploring so why doesnt anyone complain about that kind of grinding which is even more stupid than grinding in MMORPGs?
because you dont HAVE TO play like that, thats why.

there usually is challenging and non-grindy content for singleplayer in any recent western MMORPG so the only one forcing you to grind would be yourself which brings us to the next point...

-After 25 hours I played this game I'm done with it, in an MMO I wouldn't have achieved anything in that time (Maybe reached lvl 20 or so)

oh, you didnt "achieve" anything . well if thats how you play MMORPGs than thats your problem. when i play a MMORPG i play it like i played Morrowind: explore the world, do interesting quests, travel around and when the game gets boring (sometimes that happens before reaching max level, sometimes not) try a different class starting in a different place of the world and explore what you havent seen ..... and ultimativly stop playing the game when it gets to the "grindy" parts. thats EXACTLY how TES games play - hence my post. except that recent MMORPGs had far better world & combat design.

-I see dungeons traveling there alone

apart from there being lots of singleplayer-friendly dungeons in most western MMORPGs there s also the thing of having a great time by doing group dungeons when you are more powerful, i.e. say doing a group dungeon intented for lvl 40 on your own at lvl 45+. usually highly challenging, rewarding and possible in any good MMORPG.

I dunno about anyone else, but I play Skyrim for the sole purpose of pissing this guy off.

i m not sure why you get the idea you are pissing me off by playing skyrim , certainly cant be from my post were i even wrote i ll likely play it myself at some point - but i find these "this guys dumb, who s with me?" type of posts hilarious. if you cant even think/talk for your own on an internet forum thats really fucking sad mate .... also you may adress me directly when you have your own balls back

...to get back to the whole MMORPG thing, in case it wasnt obvious: i m NOT talking about grinding the fastest way to max level to join some raid guild and get the best loot on the server and play the game like a job....

....i m talking about playing these games solo, ignoring the possibility of grind and doing quests and exploration just like you would play a TES game. i played WoW like that back in the day, Everquest, Guild Wars, Age of Conan, Anarchy Online, Warhammer Online, DDO and they all were possible to play like that up till the very late "endgame" - hence my comparison.

 

[hoopy]

how long did you play WoW to come to that conclusion ? 30 minutes ? i know its oh-so-popular to bash on everything thats popular but WoW in particular has (i played it before the first addon though, dunno if things changed much for the worse but doubt it) some really great area design that favoured exploration gameplay. and for me exploration is the biggest reason i play RPGs (my favourite ones are Realms of Arcania 1&2, Wiz 7 and Ultima Underworld -perhaps to be replaced by Dark Souls but i m not finished yet ) so i m giving credit where its due...

I played WoW for years. There's almost nothing to explore because, as I said, everything is in plain sight. You won't find quests, dungeons and items by discovering a hidden path through the mountains or something like that. The most exciting exploration you can do is wallwalk or glitch your way into disused areas that you aren't supposed to be in. But I dunno if wallwalking even works anymore.