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Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

Multi-headed Cow

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link or didnt happen:rpgcodex:
Go root around on Loverslab. Apparently Japanese modders made it since decadent western modders are too inept to let me rape some goddamn elves. Pain in the ass finding the proper download links since they don't have the thread ordered correctly but if you look at the first page and last few pages you'll probably be able to figure it out.

Not like I downloaded it and immediately installed it and ensured it was working properly or anything. (totally did, what is a bethesda rpg without rape? (morrowind and daggerfall i guess (although there was that daedra in morrowind who said he was gonna rape your corpse so maybe that counts)))
 

DraQ

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What about giving you + to armour skill whenever you use another relevant skill while wearing such armour?

When fighting while clad in a full plate suit, you get ++ to heavy armour whenever you use your combat skills - so when you block you get + block and + HA, when you strike you get + melee and + HA, etc.
But then you'd have more skill points if wearing heavy armour.

I can see a way around, though - having a number (two or more) of complementary armour skills, completely covering your armour choices. The simplest way would be having two skills, one for heavy armour and one for unhindered combat, based on weight class and coverage of armour worn they would develop at different rates, but their summed up rate would always be equal and benefits would be calibrated so that you'd always get best benefit for given weight class and coverage from the mixture of two skills resulting from it.

I hated that on the original quest line... both factions are douches, the only BRO in the whole Skyrim is the Jarl of Whiterun, yet you have no choice in the Stormcloak questline besides attacking him... I was emmotionlly engaged and got very dissapointed in myself when he said "You...I expected more of you, dragonborn..." :(

FFS, I should be able to betray factions at will! Like taking the crown to the Imperials or something... shitty RPG...
Can't you actually do that in game and betray your side at this stage?
Because, AFAIK, you can.
 

abnaxus

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What should definitely have been possible is just march into the Palace of Kings and take off Ulfric Derpcloak's head without having to be railroaded through a pretty shitty questline first.

In Morrowind, one could kill the King of Morrowind (and his entire court), FFS.

(of course, in Daggerfall and Arena all Kings and Queens were essential NPCs :troll:)
 

DraQ

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What should definitely have been possible is just march into the Palace of Kings and take off Ulfric Derpcloak's head without having to be railroaded through a pretty shitty questline first.

In Morrowind, one could kill the King of Morrowind (and his entire court), FFS.

(of course, in Daggerfall and Arena all Kings and Queens were essential NPCs :troll:)
Skyrim is clearly doing away with nextgen popamole of Morrowind.
:troll:
 

Kahlis

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Skyrim is clearly doing away with nextgen popamole of Morrowind.
:troll:
dVC0h.png


It's not like they were ever lying about it. These are popamole standards enhanced edition 2012.
 

Kahlis

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Well, I remember Todd said his interest in constantly starting over came from the Ultima series, although there were pockets of continuity here and there with the way those games' mechanics worked. Given how he likes mindless, uninvolving combat, the revolution he had in mind was probably VI -> VII. Or perhaps worse.

7pfIc.gif
 

Orma

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Well, you can create and play with different character in oblivion.
In skyrim every one of them ends up to be the same.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Personally, I think skill should matter a lot more. Low skill means you just don't know how to use the shit you're using, at least not the way it's supposed to be used, and that you're not used to using it.
Sure, but attributes should also matter.

A knight who has trained his entire life to wear plate armor can do things in it that most people would consider impossible in such heavy armour.
There is one little issue though regarding implementation of such skill in use-based system - it's hard to monitor progress of such skill. If a skill can be said to produce singular outcomes of defined probability (like single attack, single block or single casting of a spell), each attempt of using it can be assigned some value determining how much the user has learned from it, preventing obvious grinding exploits and unchecked skill increases, but it doesn't apply to skills like athletics or armour - what would be an instance of use and how would one determine different outcomes?

Athletics is easy: TES did it right. It's how you get better at running in general: you run as much as possible. The shitty level-up system is what made it a poor fit.

Heavy armor would depend on what you're going for. If you're a realism fag then one can track a bunch of skills (swinging swords in heavy armor, casting spells in heavy armor, re-positioning armor in mid-attack to redirect blows as efficiently as possible). Different weapons require different talents, and defense should have more variety, not less. A swordsmaster will always use a sword to attack while a plated knight will need to know how to defend himself against a wide variety of weapons as well as perform a number of tasks with 30kg of steel strapped to their body. I myself am not a realismfag though and prefer a more abstract form. Depending on how complex you want to make it, you could simply have heavy armor grow with every hit you take, with harder hits raising it more and getting bitten by a rat doing nothing and as the skill goes up your mobility and stamina (possibly tracked separately by an attribute) increases.
 

sgc_meltdown

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Well, you can create and play with different character in oblivion.
In skyrim every one of them ends up to be the same.

ONLY IF YOU DON'T USE YOUR IMAGINATION, A TRUE ROLEPLAYER'S GREATEST WEAPON

ALSO YOU FOOL STATS AND DIFFERENT SKILL BUILDS GOT IN THE WAY OF ROLEPLAYING SO SKYRIM HAS MORE FREEDOM THAN EVER BEFORE FOR EXPERIENCED ROLEPLAYERS

 

DraQ

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Athletics is easy: TES did it right. It's how you get better at running in general: you run as much as possible. The shitty level-up system is what made it a poor fit.

Heavy armor would depend on what you're going for. If you're a realism fag then one can track a bunch of skills (swinging swords in heavy armor, casting spells in heavy armor, re-positioning armor in mid-attack to redirect blows as efficiently as possible). Different weapons require different talents, and defense should have more variety, not less. A swordsmaster will always use a sword to attack while a plated knight will need to know how to defend himself against a wide variety of weapons as well as perform a number of tasks with 30kg of steel strapped to their body. I myself am not a realismfag though and prefer a more abstract form. Depending on how complex you want to make it, you could simply have heavy armor grow with every hit you take, with harder hits raising it more and getting bitten by a rat doing nothing and as the skill goes up your mobility and stamina (possibly tracked separately by an attribute) increases.
The problem is that skills not associated with difficult tasks are free to raise in obvious manner, possibly even grinding on their own as game progresses regardless of build.

For example, if you tend to run a lot and running isn't costly in any way, then your character will quickly build up athletics regardless of their build, rendering such skill meaningless even though it's still useful to have stat governing running.

Same with jumping, armour skills, sneak (as sneaking tends to not impair you in any way before the combat starts) and so on. Those skills are inherently grind friendly and most will rise on their own regardless of your build.

Well, you can create and play with different character in oblivion.
In skyrim every one of them ends up to be the same.
Actually, although it lacks initial builds and has stupidly simplified mechanics, Skyrim allows the most bdiversity of characters in the end of all post-Daggerfall TES games (Daggerfall itself only has an edge due to special advantages and disadvantages system).

In both Morrowind and oblivious you could eventually max out all skills and attributes leaving you with characters differing only in HP count (since Endurance HP bonus was not retroactive) and racial abilities (to be fair, it didn't really matter in Morrowind, as it would require going to around level 70, which far beyond the point at which you'd exhaust gameplay opportunities of given character - somewhere between lvl 20 and 30 in vanilla, below 40 with expansions, originally planned lvl descriptions also only went up to 20).

In Skyrim neither your health, nor stamina nor magicka don't grow on their own on level up, so you have to boost one at the expense of the others and you have limited number of perks, meaning that characters in Skyrim will differ and keep diverging as gameplay progresses, even though the game lacks initial builds.

Not to mention that there are some C&C in Skyrim, while there is essentially none in failblivion.

tl;dr
You speak nonsense.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The problem is that skills not associated with difficult tasks are free to raise in obvious manner, possibly even grinding on their own as game progresses regardless of build.

For example, if you tend to run a lot and running isn't costly in any way, then your character will quickly build up athletics regardless of their build, rendering such skill meaningless even though it's still useful to have stat governing running.

Same with jumping, armour skills, sneak (as sneaking tends to not impair you in any way before the combat starts) and so on. Those skills are inherently grind friendly and most will rise on their own regardless of your build.

Not the problem. If you use armor to block hits all the time, armor skill should go up. If you jump a lot, jump should go up. If you run around a lot, athletics should go up. The problem comes from poor overall game design. If the primary way of getting around is running from place to place, of course you're going to have every character excel in athletics. If heavy armor doesn't give you any comparable disadvantage and provides the best protection, everyone will be a heavily armored juggernaut. But enough about shitty balance games like TES. Here's how it would look in a properly designed game:

Warrior and rogue type character types would still walk/run everywhere. They hike across several mountains to a dungeon and are assailed by several moderately well armed bandits once there. The warrior is wearing a full set of plate armor and laughs as the bandits' attacks deflect off his armor and easily dispatches them. The rogue has no room to dodge much while surrounded so chooses to jump on a bookcase and scale the walls to get to another level and hopefully lose the bandits. He doesn't get to loot the bodies but does manage to find some treasure he wouldn't have been able to access without his acrobatics. Both the warrior and rogue then run into a solitary battlemage who conjures up a pair of lava axes. The rogue can easily dodge the large weapons and plant a dagger in the mage's heart while the warrior has a hell of a time with it since the axes can melt right through his armor which no longer provides any real protection. Since he's been relying on his armor to protect him he has a lot of trouble finally defeating an enemy his style is not suited to protect him from. They both find the treasure they were looking for, and finally head home, the warrior walking out the front door with the treasure and the gear from the bandits and the rogue walking out with the treasure as well as the hidden treasure he found. Then there are the less physically intensive classes. The wizard flies there since it's faster. Athletics doesn't raise at all. He walks in through the front door, kills all four bandits with a fire blast, sends a lightning bolt through the battle mage's chest, uses precognition spell with telekinesis spell to retrieve the treasure the rogue found, loots the bandits' bodies, finds the treasure and walks out the door with more loot than either the rogue and warrior found. The Jew Baron pays the mages' guild to teleport him and an entire mercenary company into the middle of the dungeon. Half his mercs die so he doesn't even have to pay them. He doesn't need heavy armor because no enemy gets anywhere near him and he doesn't need to walk because he bought Andhaira from a slaver to retrieve and carry all his shit for him. The mages guild then teleports him out. Even though he has to pay the mercs and buy another slave because Andhaira got impaled by a spike trap, he's a master merchant so he sells the shit he found for 1000% more than what it's actually worth, pulls in a profit that is 937.65% higher than all the other classes combined despite his expenses and it's all done before the other classes even get to the dungeon. :troll:

On a more serious note, if games offered more non-tedious transportation options and made wearing no armor or using magic for protection worthwhile the passively growing skills wouldn't cause any problems.
 

Erzherzog

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You hardly get anymore non-tedious transportation than Oblivion's fast travel and that still didn't change shit. Passive skills simply don't mesh with TES style leveling. Then again TES style levelling is subpar by nature.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
You hardly get anymore non-tedious transportation than Oblivion's fast travel and that still didn't change shit.

It didn't change shit because fast travel is just abstracted walking without the skill increase. It also slowed down the growth of athletics considerably for me as a result. If you could teleport/fly (which boosts a related magic skill, like it did in morrowind), use a mount (which could increase a related mount skill) or pay for transportation (which would increase your trade skill) then characters who are not physically proficient (and in the case of mounts even those who are) would see much slower athletics increases, proportionate to the relatively small effort put into walking around.
 

Commissar Draco

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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
All this would be good if Bethpizda would decide to scrap Instant teleporting for all classes Fast travel and quest Compass. No initiative to pay gold for wagon, run or ride horse with this. But they won't do this cause their consoltared morons target audience could not find Caius Cosades... worst hidden Spy in History (before OBlibion).
 

flushfire

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you have limited number of perks, meaning that characters in Skyrim will differ and keep diverging as gameplay progresses, even though the game lacks initial builds.
Sadly this is another example where the result could've been a lot better had Bethesda gone all the way in restricting the player. I don't know how it is now, but back when I played you could take every perk that mattered at max level, meaning that you have a different experience while getting there but not when you do. of course "getting there" is most the game anyway so becoming jack-of-all hundreds of hours later doesn't really matter that much. I just wish they'd gone farther though, bec. back when I played you could complete a hybrid build at level 20 or so, after that you're on your way to becoming jack-of-all and that's really boring. even hp/mp/stamina doesn't make that much of a difference, there's almost no point in putting any points in mp bec. of -25% cost enchant. anyway I do think what Skyrim's got is an improvement over Oblivion, I just wish Bethesda would've gone farther with it.
 

DraQ

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Not the problem. If you use armor to block hits all the time, armor skill should go up.
Actually no, because it's retarded. You can grow accustomed to wearing aromur while performing various tasks, but you sure as fuck won't make it harder by the virtue of being hit a lot.

Armor skills only make sense when attached to all the other skillchecks and completely covering available choice of wearable protections. This still leaves them quite distinct from all the other skills - for one, at least one of them is going to be part of every build.

If you jump a lot, jump should go up. If you run around a lot, athletics should go up. The problem comes from poor overall game design. If the primary way of getting around is running from place to place, of course you're going to have every character excel in athletics.
The problem here is that for most humanoids and land-based creatures walking and running is the primary mode of transportation. Teleporting or levitating is resource-constrained and therefore circumstantial, jumping and climbing are also circumstantial, but essentially free actions meaning you're encouraged to use it whenever you can regardless of your build, while riding is going to be everyone's preferred mode of transportation because it's logical and doesn't require much skill outside of combat.

The problem with movement stats as skills is that they eventually work against the very point of making them stats, because everyone has them boosted to high values and difference they are supposed to indicate vanishes.

If heavy armor doesn't give you any comparable disadvantage and provides the best protection, everyone will be a heavily armored juggernaut.
Except it's weight and stat-dependent movement penalties are a disadvantage. If a suit of armour forces you to tank more the less you're suited for it, then you might want to avoid it in most circumstances.

Yeah, on a field of battle, with lots of people, swinging weapons and flying projectiles even a mage will probably want a plate if they can cast in it, but an adventurer or small group navigating cruel and unusual environments is not the same as open battlefield.

Also, your hypothetical example isn't all that different from Morrowind with better AI.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The problem with Oblivion's, Skyrim's and FO3's fast travel system isn't that it's a fast travel system anyone can use, it's that it's a TELEPORT TO LOCATION travel system.

It would be much more interesting to have a fast travel system like, say, Arcanum's, where you can discover locations that are on your way, and get random encounters that may fuck you up if you're low level and traversing a dangerous area.
Daggerfall's fast travel system wasn't too bad either. You had several travel options, such as camping outside or resting in inns, you could use a wagon or horse if you had it, all of which influenced the time it takes to reach your location - which, with some quests, could be crucial because they had time limits (which isn't a bad thing for some sidequests).

The way it is now it's just "click on a location and arrive", which is banal shit boring.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Actually no, because it's retarded. You can grow accustomed to wearing aromur while performing various tasks, but you sure as fuck won't make it harder by the virtue of being hit a lot.

No, but you'll learn how to position it to take blows better. For example, quickly moving in when someone is swinging a hammer so that they don't gain full momentum before it hits, shifting slightly so a sword stab that would pierce a weak spot hits a strong spot instead, etc.

[quote\Armor skills only make sense when attached to all the other skillchecks and completely covering available choice of wearable protections. This still leaves them quite distinct from all the other skills - for one, at least one of them is going to be part of every build.[/quote]

So is an attack skill, even if your attack skill is mercantile and does damage by hiring mercenaries.

The problem here is that for most humanoids and land-based creatures walking and running is the primary mode of transportation. Teleporting or levitating is resource-constrained and therefore circumstantial, jumping and climbing are also circumstantial, but essentially free actions meaning you're encouraged to use it whenever you can regardless of your build, while riding is going to be everyone's preferred mode of transportation because it's logical and doesn't require much skill outside of combat.

I don't like skills that just do one very specific thing so I'm ok with the riding skill having combat applications. It's true that walking is the primary mode of transportation, but that doesn't mean a field worker is going to be going toe to toe with Usain Bolt. Plus, running/walking should be resource based too, relying on fatigue/stamina.

The problem with movement stats as skills is that they eventually work against the very point of making them stats, because everyone has them boosted to high values and difference they are supposed to indicate vanishes.

If you become a champion runner just by walking around then it's just bad design. Walking should offer diminishing returns the higher the skill is until it stops doing anything. Either all running or at least sprinting (like in Skyrim) should require stamina and thus be of limited use to a build with low stamina. Rough terrain should slow the character down and boost the skill gain from walking/running over it. A wizard would just levitate over it and the merchant can make Andhaira carry him on his back. A wizard can still master athletics, but he'd have to go out of his way to do it, just like he would if he wanted to master sword fighting.

Except it's weight and stat-dependent movement penalties are a disadvantage. If a suit of armour forces you to tank more the less you're suited for it, then you might want to avoid it in most circumstances.

Yeah, on a field of battle, with lots of people, swinging weapons and flying projectiles even a mage will probably want a plate if they can cast in it, but an adventurer or small group navigating cruel and unusual environments is not the same as open battlefield.

I am referring to poorly balanced games where wearing heavy armor doesn't do any of those things (like Morrowind).

Also, your hypothetical example isn't all that different from Morrowind with better AI.

I never naturally maxed athletics in Morrowind. It grew so slowly that I inevitably found myself with abundant teleportation/levitation long before it grew to any considerable number. The boots of blinding speed made its growth even slower.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
you have limited number of perks, meaning that characters in Skyrim will differ and keep diverging as gameplay progresses, even though the game lacks initial builds.
Sadly this is another example where the result could've been a lot better had Bethesda gone all the way in restricting the player. I don't know how it is now, but back when I played you could take every perk that mattered at max level, meaning that you have a different experience while getting there but not when you do. of course "getting there" is most the game anyway so becoming jack-of-all hundreds of hours later doesn't really matter that much. I just wish they'd gone farther though, bec. back when I played you could complete a hybrid build at level 20 or so, after that you're on your way to becoming jack-of-all and that's really boring. even hp/mp/stamina doesn't make that much of a difference, there's almost no point in putting any points in mp bec. of -25% cost enchant. anyway I do think what Skyrim's got is an improvement over Oblivion, I just wish Bethesda would've gone farther with it.

I cheated to the maximum level and still didn't have enough perks for some of my builds.
 

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