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Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

Carrion

Arcane
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Ugh, all these DLCs couldn't really be any less interesting, and that's not really because of their content. I just don't have any motivation to ever touch the game again because I feel I've seen everything it has to offer. In this regard it might actually be a worse game than Oblivion.

I actually had two walkthroughs of Oblivion, although I didn't fully complete any big quest line more than once. My first playthrough was only with an UI mod or something so I pretty much got the pure Oblivion experience. My character was an Imperial Spellsword that spent most of his time stabbing monsters in some lame-ass dungeon somewhere in Cyrodiil. At some point it became sort of painful, but I did manage to complete the main quest and all of the guilds except for the Mages Guild which completely sucked ass. One beautiful day I uninstalled the game in rage because of the Bosmer voice actor and swore never to touch it again.

My second playthrough was a couple of years later with OOO and a bunch other mods, probably because I had heard that mods could actually fix the thing. I can't remember my character's class (probably a custom one) but basically he was a Dunmer thief who also practiced mysticism, alchemy and Daedra worship. It was a bit LARPy since I spent something like a dozen hours in the Imperial City just reading books and making potions in my room at the cheapest inn, robbing rich people's houses at night, fighting in the arena, making money by selling herbs, stalking and murdering people with bad voice actors (meaning anyone and everyone, I guess, but especially Bosmers) and working for the Thieves Guild before doing any kind of actual dungeon crawling, but it also was the most fun I had with the game and made me forgive or at least forget a lot of the stupid things in the game. There really was a lot of stuff to do in the game even when you completely ignored tons of content, even if it wasn't exactly Morrowind in that regard. Eventually I got completely fed up, uninstalled the game in rage for the second time and swore never to touch it again, but after Skyrim I may have to give Oblivion a bit more credit than I initially did.

There's just nothing in Skyrim besides dungeon crawling, not a single reason to start up the game again and try a different character. All the guilds are the same and short as hell, there are no interesting locations in the cities (like the Ayleid artifact collector's house in the Imperial City), and the total lack of interesting spells means that I have no interest in trying out a mage character after already mastering swords and stealth with my previous character. As a game Skyrim is much better than Oblivion and nowhere near as offensive, no doubt about it, but it's just so stripped-down, bland and repetitive that playing it feels like a chore now. Oblivion is pretty much an abomination from Hell but among all the shit there's still a bunch of redeeming features that Skyrim unfortunately lacks.
 

IDtenT

Menace to sobriety!
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Divinity: Original Sin
Bringing that up, I have no idea which one held my attention longer, but neither would have crossed 20 hours.

My biggest gripe with the last two TES games (apart from Oblivion being soulless) is just how fucking repetitive the games are. Someone else here actually alluded to the fact that this appeals to the console crowd, who enjoys playing games in small packages. Unlike many other sand box RPGs you don't feel completely lost when you replay an old character. That's actually one of my biggest failings; I almost never finish RPGs because I completely forget what I'm all about, after putting the game down for a month, and I just end up restarting the game. I had level 30 characters at least 5 times in Morrowind, yet I've never finished the main quest.
 

Wyrmlord III

Formerly Hot Rod Todd Howard
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
216
I suppose I am not the only one to notice this, but I was impressed by how close it was.

chZp0.png
1512493-20.jpg

WRylH.png
12365277.jpg


Ra's al Ghul, given the gift of immortality by the Lazarus Pit, started out as a righteous vigilante in pursuit of justice. But he slowly started losing his mind due to his immortality, and began to regard mortals as evil cattle fit to be destroyed and replaced with superior virtuous creatures. His League of Assassins was formed to serve as fellow instruments to his cause, with them too receiving the same gifts if loyal. When his daughter and League member, Talia al-Ghul finds a saviour in Bruce "The Detective" Wayne, Ra's al Ghul requests The Detective to become a part of his little empire and serve his cause. But The Detective, if tempted to be part of his cause, is a little disturbed by the Demon's Head, as is his daughter Talia al Ghul.

Harkon Valkihar, given the gift of immortality by the Molag Bal, started out as a righteous vigilante in pursuit of justice. But he slowly started losing his mind due to his immortality, and began to regard mortals as evil cattle fit to be destroyed and replaced with superior virtuous creatures. His House Valkihar was formed to serve as fellow instruments to his cause, with them too receiving the same gifts if loyal. When his daughter and House member, Serana Valkihar, finds a saviour in the Aspect of Akatosh, Ra's al Ghul requests The Dovahkiin to become a part of his little empire and serve his cause. But The Dovahkiin, if tempted to be part of his cause, is a little disturbed by the Servant of Molag Bal, as is his daughter Serana Valkihar.
 

Stabwound

Arcane
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,240
Bringing that up, I have no idea which one held my attention longer, but neither would have crossed 20 hours.

My biggest gripe with the last two TES games (apart from Oblivion being soulless) is just how fucking repetitive the games are.
That is exactly my problem with Skyrim, too. When I first started it, I have to admit, I was impressed. I really did like it a lot. Then you get 15 hours in and you've seen everything the game has to offer and the new car smell wears off. All there is to do is repeat the same 15 hours another 10x with hundreds(?) of nearly identical caves/dungeons that unfold like an intestine.

It doesn't even work well as a hiking simulator, because the scaled items are still there. Quests are meaningless because you don't gain experience, just pointless gold and maybe a shitty item or two. The game is just a big world full of generic quests and nothingness.

The epitome of failed potential.
 

Murezor

Novice
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
6
Playing a Bethesda game is always like a lawfulness test, and not only in terms of bugs or Artificial Stupidity. I mean all you need to do in order to become god is to hit "~" and type "tgm".

In Oblivion authors had implemented something better in vanilla version of game, and called this "level scalling". You're a god all the time!

PS: Cześć Łusko.​
 

Wyrmlord III

Formerly Hot Rod Todd Howard
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
216
Oh, I just wanted to say Dawnguard is a lot more impressive than I expected.

Remember how Morrowind used to bring this feeling of the player being drawn into a thousands years old conspiracy, with unfinished businesses from many ages back coming to weigh down on your shoulders? This game has an element of that. When you explore the reclusive world of vampires in this game, you see the decaying cobweb-ridden mansions, the unfinished laboratory experiments, the centuries old traps, the journals detailing all the old feuds, and the secret lives without anybody else knowing of it. It is like the movie Sunset Boulevard, involving people stuck in ages long past and still clinging to their old obsessions, while their manor rots and falls apart.

In the chapter Chasing Echoes, there is a hint of the Beth DuClare's Mansion section from Deus Ex, with a daughter learning about a secret life her mother lived behind her back, with her commenting on everything that she is seeing. Twisting a candlelight here or pushing a bookshelf there, and then rooms open up to show what was really happening for hundreds upon hundreds of years. And in typical Elder Scrolls fashion, you see details of old intrigues of members of royal families who were plotting against one another. When I read Valerica Volkihar's journal and read her description of how Lord Harkon was slowly going insane with his obsession with an Elder Scrolls prophecy, I was reminded of the journal of Prince Lhotun's brother in Daggerfall, who wrote on how his father hated him so deeply that he threw him into a werewolf lair to die.

Storyfag shit aside, the levels and the combat encounters are pretty decent. There is one moment where an excavation site of the Vigilants of Stendarr has all these ramps and platforms in all directions, with lots of Stendarr priests firing at you with their crossbows from all directions far far away across the underground mines. And yeah, the crossbow bolts really sting when a player is hit by them, and you know you have to either kill them quickly or GTFO. Plus, as a Conjuration and Restoration magician, I enjoy the challenge of finding a harder and yet harder vampire enemy so that I can enthrall him and make him my servant. I currently have two Master Vampire thralls, but I hope to eventually enthrall the higher level vampires that the DLC promises.
 

Wyrmlord III

Formerly Hot Rod Todd Howard
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
216
Heh, well, any praise should be balanced with criticism, I suppose. There are some serious problems that come to mind.

Every second person who played Dawnguard has faced a game-breaking bug where Moth Priest Dexion Evicus remains permanently hostile to the player, thus preventing any advancement of the game. I believe this alone should be good enough reason not to buy Dawnguard, since there is a serious gamble of you putting twenty dollars into something you can't even play or finish. As much as I like Dawnguard, its serious bugs may be the only reason I'd encourage those on the fence to avoid it.

Other than that, this one is a bit of nagger. One does not become a CEO on his first entry level job, one does not enter a FIFA World Cup team at the age of 14, and one does not become a Prime Minister after his first run for Parliament. But in the power fantasies of Dawnguard's vampire questline, this is different, where you become a Vampire Lord from the moment you join House Volkihar. That isinsane. The game seems to indicate that there are only four Vampire Lords present in Tamriel at the time. And that a Vampire Lord isn't even a vampire, but a half-Daedroth and half-mortal. A sired servant of Molag Bal, if you will. Those of us who saw the video of the Skyrim Game Jam were under the impression that one had to work towards becoming a Vampire Lord - starting as an ordinary vampire, going up to Master Vampire, and then finally become a Vampire Lord. But no, a Vampire Lord can only be sired as one from the first bite, and your player get to become one of the most powerful creatures in Tamriel immediately and without any conditions.

What is worse is that a Vampire Lord is basically a different character altogether from the one you built. If you were a Dunmer Spellsword and a Vampire, then both your Spellsword and Vampire skills complement one another. But when you transform into a Vampire Lord, you can't use any of your normal character's skills. Your advancement as a Nord/Imperial/Breton/whatever is entirely independent of your advancement as a Vampire Lord. It's like switching classes in Torment, except you can do it anytime anywhere. Basically, a Level 1 character who becomes a Vampire Lord is on par with a Level 84 character who becomes a Vampire Lord. A simple implication of this is that with the level scaling in the game, a Level 1 Vampire Lord will be able to retain more power without facing level-scaled enemies. Plus, Vampire Lords have their own separate XP-based advancement, based on how many people you kill. So you can max out all your Vampire Lord perks by killing lots of people, and you will still ONLY face Level 1 enemies.
 

Murezor

Novice
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
6
Jakieś dwa lata temu. A premiera Skyrima okazała się krótkotrwałą próbą reanimacji truposza.
 

Jadeite

Educated
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
81
You're surprised? There hasn't been a good game in this series since Daggerfall. Morrowind was fucking shit. It's obvious the designers had nowhere to go with the series and just wanted to make a quick buck. Uglier graphics, smaller dungeons, smaller world... it's like they didn't even know what the series was about. They should have focused on making good rather than advanced graphics and on improving rather than changing Daggerfall. There were a lot of things not included in Daggerfall... all those fucking items with no use. Why not make light sources useful, expand on the ideas of ships and houses? Maybe they did, but after getting railroaded from one town to another, some tiny little piece of shit wedged between a mountain and a cliff, being able to walk into people's house and take useless shit with impunity, I said fuck it. I don't even remember if the game had music, but it sure as hell wasn't like Daggerfall's. It looked like they spent thousands of fucking dollars making the NPCs look pretty in close-ups and just said to fuck with the gameplay. They really had no fucking idea what they were doing.. Game of the Year in 2003 means shit of course, but still, I would've picked Fatal Frame II, Shadowbane, or UT2003 over fucking Morrowind.It reminds me of some fucking shit like Minecraft, no challenge, just do whatever the fuck you want, doesn't give a shit about realism or atmosphere, like Barbie's fucking Dream House for adults.
 

Jadeite

Educated
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
81
Lol @ "regulars" on this site who automatically discount the opinions of people who don't live on it. Oblivion was watered down, dull, and mediocre. It was sterile and lacked immersion, depth, and variance. Skyrim is far, far better. The graphics are excellent (if you have a good rig), the atmosphere is bleak and has a very somber and dark mood. The combat is far more weighty. The towns feel much more alive. Bards are playing and people are chatting. Smiths are smithing and whatever. Yes, the UI sucks. Yes the fact that they got rid of stats sucks. It's still a great game.

Seriously, this site seems to be full of elitist people who take pride in disliking anything mainstream despite it's quality. Same as people who dislike bands because they're popular. Those kids have no idea what music is about. As I said. go load wizardry 1 on an emulator and stop crying. Skyrim is a good game. Now rage and insult me because I haven't posted here much even though I'm typing the truth. My props go out to Bethesda for taking time to actually create an immersive environment.

'Bards are playing and people are chatting'. Who gives a fuck? Daggerfall is regarded by a lot of people as the pinnacle of cRPGs and it didn't have that shit. Everything in its shitty sequels is cosmetic. Bethesda didn't have the fucking balls to take it to the next level. I'm talking a careful study of what made Daggerfall good and what could be added without changing the feel. Instead they fucking sold out to get a Game of the Year and a console port. The best part about Daggerfall was that you could just take off and fucking go places. Camp out in the middle of a field after walking 30 minutes outside of a town... come up on a coven, dungeon, farmhouse, etc. Do quests for people in the wilderness, join different holy fucking orders, bust open mysterious houses, deal with court intrigue, roll up in a town at dusk after clearing out a harpy nest or attic of rats, make it to the fighter's guild just before they closed, spend the night there, raise in ranks (very slowly) and get cool privileges. In Morrowind you start on a fucking island or some shit, can't go anywhere, there's some punk offering to give you a ride on an animal, you can kill fucking crabs and gain levels from it. Dungeons are generic as fuck and monsters are the first thing you see when you pop in. What the fuck... Final Fantasy XI's the only game I've played where the predecessor sucked, and that was an MMORPG. You couldn't pay me to play Oblivion or whatever. If a company fucks up a sequel that bad, you know something's wrong. And why did it take 7 fucking years for them to make a sequel? Don't tell me they working on the game for that long. The intro wasn't fucking compelling at all. And for fuck's sake hire a goddamn composer. Did Morrowind even have music?
 

Murezor

Novice
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
6
You're surprised? There hasn't been a good game in this series since Daggerfall. Morrowind was fucking shit. It's obvious the designers had nowhere to go with the series and just wanted to make a quick buck. Uglier graphics, smaller dungeons, smaller world...

This post contains more bullshit than random topic on official Beth forum, but the world in MW is indeed quite small, smaller than in Oblivion too. The big world in TES III is an illusion, effect of clever author's tricks and still a lot of people are thinking that Vvardenfell is really enormous. When you use a MGE which add a distant land option, it's quite simple to see how big in fact is our dear island.
 

IDtenT

Menace to sobriety!
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Divinity: Original Sin
You're surprised? There hasn't been a good game in this series since Daggerfall. Morrowind was fucking shit. It's obvious the designers had nowhere to go with the series and just wanted to make a quick buck. Uglier graphics, smaller dungeons, smaller world...

This post contains more bullshit than random topic on official Beth forum, but the world in MW is indeed quite small, smaller than in Oblivion too. The big world in TES III is an illusion, effect of clever author's tricks and still a lot of people are thinking that Vvardenfell is really enormous. When you use a MGE which add a distant land option, it's quite simple to see how big in fact is our dear island.
It was so packed with content it didn't need to be enormous. You could walk from one end to the other in a short span of time.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Even with MGE's distant land, Vvardenfell feels larger and more like a real place than Oblivion. Skyrim might seem a bit larger, but its quest compass detracts a lot from the explorefaggotry that made Morrowind so great.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
Even with MGE's distant land, Vvardenfell feels larger and more like a real place than Oblivion. Skyrim might seem a bit larger, but its quest compass detracts a lot from the explorefaggotry that made Morrowind so great.
Skyrim's problem, like Oblivion's, is density of content. Skyrim is actually probably a bit bigger than Oblivion but, like Oblivion, there is also less to do in between locations. That said I also kind of prefer the more natural feel to the world. Oblivion was basically window-dressing until you found a dungeon or oblivion gate or town somewhere. Skyrim's world doesn't feel quite so much like bullet points on a map.
 

Wyrmlord III

Formerly Hot Rod Todd Howard
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
216
Come on, sea, a lot less to do between locations?

In Skyrim, you have one gigantic underground network known as Blackreach that spreads over the entire province. This Blackreach, a giant world of underground rivers, waterfalls, and floating and glowing jellyfish, is connected to three other underground cities - Alftand, Mzinchaleft, and Raldbthar. Blackreach itself is divided into Field Laboratory, Debate Hall, Pumping Station, Catacombs, Ruins, Towers, War Quarters, Pumphouse, and the Farmhouse. Besides all of these, there is one giant laboratory called the Tower of Mzark. Alftand is divided into the Cathedral, the Animonculory, and the main city. Mzinchaleft has the Gatehouse to Blackreach, the Falmer quarters, and the Dwemer quarters. Raldbthar has a marketplace, a military storehouse, the Aetherium Forge, and a Centurion quarters.

In other words, you have one single continuous underground network of 20 locations connected together with six points of entry (two for each connected city) and one single hub. Cathedrals, marketplaces, barracks, zoos, all placed together. And it takes several hours to fully explore the entire network.

And in this single underground world, you have 11 quests:
  1. Elder knowledge
  2. Discerning the transmundane
  3. Return to your roots
  4. Arniel's endeavour
  5. Maluril contract
  6. Shalidor's insights
  7. Grimsever
  8. Sulla Trebatious' expedition
  9. Lost to the ages
  10. Mourning never comes
  11. Dawnguard Dragon Scroll quest
Several of these quests are connected together. Discerning The Transmundane, for example, provides the Attunement Sphere, which is required for reaching Sinderion's laboratory and finishing the Return to your Roots quests, while also assisting in the completion of the Elder Knowledge and the Dawnguard dragon scroll quest in the same area. Solely by virtue of entering any of the the Blackreach access points, you end up triggering or completing several quests at the same time. You enter Mzinchaleft to find the Dwarven Mechanism, find Maluril Ferano - a notorious wanted bandit - blocking your path, end up retrieving the Grimsever for Mjoll the Lioness on the way by defeating a Dwemer Centurion, enter Blackreach and find hundreds of Geode Veins used for mining Soul Gems (that you may need for several other quests), bump into Alain DuFont and his bandits while trying to find the Dwemer laboratory for the Elder Scroll, and so on and so forth. Oh, and you also end up transcribing a lexicon of knowledge and collect several hundreds of Dwarven Metal Ingots and discovering the rare Falmer armour, the lightest heavy armour set in the game. A lot of things to do concentrated in one place.
When I first entered one of the Blackreach dungeons, I lost track of all the tasks I was juggling around at the same time. So when you say that Skyrim has a lack of things to do between locations, I believe you are seriously mistaken. I mean, the Blackreach network is not even 5% of Skyrim, and lots of players may not even have seen the Blackreach network.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
Come on, sea, a lot less to do between locations?
Blackreach is a large and cool dungeon, and one of the few truly nice parts of Skyrim. But I don't see how that has any bearing whatsoever on the overworld gameplay I was referring to.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
I'm not sure about exact differences between Oblivion and Skyrim when it comes density or amount of content, but Skyrim's world design is much better than Oblivion's.
Thanks to better placing of (natural) barriers and such, the world feels much better.
Now, admittedly my opinion might change eventually (even in case of Oblivion, the problems with map design didn't become apparent right out of the box for me), but so far Skyrim feels much less like a big theme park.
 

Murezor

Novice
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
6
Even with MGE's distant land, Vvardenfell feels larger and more like a real place than Oblivion. Skyrim might seem a bit larger, but its quest compass detracts a lot from the explorefaggotry that made Morrowind so great.

It's true, Morrowind in fact has really varied world, additionally divided by high mountains and ashes deserts, therefore an illusion of size is large. In OB are two or three types of environment (snowy north region, deserted west and big forest in central, southern and easter Cyrodiil), in Morrowind - a lot. Marshy Bitter Coast, idyllic green Ascadian's Isles, extensive gray Ashlands, volcanic Molag Amur with storms... Heh, exploring MW world is cool, but when I think about some NPC's location descriptions...:M

I'm not sure about exact differences between Oblivion and Skyrim when it comes density or amount of content, but Skyrim's world design is much better than Oblivion's.

In my opinion world in Skyrim is more, hmm, coherent with gameplay and lore than in Oblivion (tropical jungle FTW). Everybody imagine this province as same as authors designed Skyrim: the mostly snowy land with elongate mountains chains, fabulous views etc. When you travel through this land you feel it's spacious, living and just good-looking.​
 

logrus

Augur
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
163
Project: Eternity
Just found very interesting mod which changes the quest descriptions in your journal so you should be able to find the quest locations using only the hints not the compass. Haven't tested it myself - author of the mod gives an example:
Vanilla texts:
11135-1-1330212425.jpg


Well, it literally forces you touse compass... Improved descriptions:
11135-2-1330212428.jpg


Turning off the quest markers and using the map just a reference of you location and exploration based on these notes promises so much better experience.
To be honest it should be implemented that way from the start, having quest markers as an optional feature. If the quality of the alternate journal entries is as the example promises (seem well-balanced giving the valuable hint but not en exact "I'll place a marker on your map"), then I can finally go the real explorer mode :)

EDIT: Oh, the link for the mod is: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/11135
I hope it gets updated for Dawnguard too!
 

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