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So, anyone playing League of Legends?

Jim Cojones

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Kha'Zix no longer gets to consume passive on evolved spikes ( :( )

Wow, that's a HUGE nerf :eek:

EDIT: Nope, nevermind, the patch says they now slow for 2 seconds by default... so, kind of a buff in some ways? Also reduced mana costs, lol.
Well, the passive can give him up to 190 bonus damage on a AoE nuke and that has a huge impact on his poke. As a support player, it doesn't feel fair to find out that when I come help push mid tower after bot got destroyed, a supposed assassin eats 1/3 of my life with a single ranged spell. The change should at least nerf this aspect of his kit.
 

Grunker

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Kha'Zix no longer gets to consume passive on evolved spikes ( :( )

Wow, that's a HUGE nerf :eek:

EDIT: Nope, nevermind, the patch says they now slow for 2 seconds by default... so, kind of a buff in some ways? Also reduced mana costs, lol.
Well, the passive can give him up to 190 bonus damage on a AoE nuke and that has a huge impact on his poke. As a support player, it doesn't feel fair to find out that when I come help push mid tower after bot got destroyed, a supposed assassin eats 1/3 of my life with a single ranged spell. The change should at least nerf this aspect of his kit.

His burst is unaffected though. Actually, it may get worse if someone starts evolving Q.
 

Juul

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All jungle camps will now spawn at 1.55

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsss

Paging Juul.

Kha'Zix no longer gets to consume passive on evolved spikes ( :( )

Wow, that's a HUGE nerf :eek:

EDIT: Nope, nevermind, the patch says they now slow for 2 seconds by default... so, kind of a buff in some ways? Also reduced mana costs, lol.
What?! It's a nerf. He loses the ability to waveclear as well and a lot of damage on his W. The passive was fine for slowing, but for W it was all about the added damage. Seems like Riots way of saying "please max Q instead".
Haven't tried calculating his new Q, but glancing at the numbers, it seems it will be worse untill you evolve it. I think it's a decent change, it'll hopefully force Kha into having to commit to do real damage, instead of just staying at range spamming W. Also, they raped his ult. I don't see any reason to evolve it, ever, if it stays like this until live.
 

Grunker

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I hadn't thought about wave-clear at all, *doh*. You're right. I don't see any changes to his Ult on the web page? Am I blind?

With just the changes I saw we're still talking a net improvement to his burst if you evolve Q.
 

Juul

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Kha'Zix no longer gets to consume passive on evolved spikes ( :( )

Wow, that's a HUGE nerf :eek:

EDIT: Nope, nevermind, the patch says they now slow for 2 seconds by default... so, kind of a buff in some ways? Also reduced mana costs, lol.
Well, the passive can give him up to 190 bonus damage on a AoE nuke and that has a huge impact on his poke. As a support player, it doesn't feel fair to find out that when I come help push mid tower after bot got destroyed, a supposed assassin eats 1/3 of my life with a single ranged spell. The change should at least nerf this aspect of his kit.

His burst is unaffected though. Actually, it may get worse if someone starts evolving Q.
Burst was never the problem with Kha'zhix. Asassins to who close to you, are gonna burst you for a lot of damage, who knew. The problem was being able to poke for a lot of damage while still being a strong burster.
 

Juul

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I hadn't thought about wave-clear at all, *doh*. You're right. I don't see any changes to his Ult on the web page? Am I blind?

With just the changes I saw we're still talking a net improvement to his burst if you evolve Q.

[R] - Void Assault - Evolved version can now be cast 4 times ( up from 3) however no longer has 40% reduced damage while in stealth.
 

Grunker

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I hadn't thought about wave-clear at all, *doh*. You're right. I don't see any changes to his Ult on the web page? Am I blind?

With just the changes I saw we're still talking a net improvement to his burst if you evolve Q.

[R] - Void Assault - Evolved version can now be cast 4 times ( up from 3) however no longer has 40% reduced damage while in stealth.

LOL

It's rare you even need the three times (except to increase damage reduction). How will poor Kha survive in team fights now?

I didn't say his burst was problematic btw, I said it would get better.
 

Juul

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I guess it will, slightly.
The stories of Zyra and Lissandra are practically completely identical, and other mages have been there as well.

Fuck, I love playing standard AP mages, and fuck, they suck at the minute. RIOT finally makes one that doesn't, and they scheme to send her off to the support rows immeadiately. Thank God, we almost had some competition for the AD-casters and AP assassins there for a while.

I am Grunker - and I am very butthurt about my favourite role getting no love :(

Okay, first let me say that I don't understand the Lissandra nerf at all. I dunno about Zyra as an example as she was pretty fucking broken on release and I still don't think she's that bad on mid. Also, the most popular mid picks, competitively right now are (mostly focusing on Asian-scene, but overall is about the same): Twisted Fate, Orianna, Karthus, Ryze, Diana, Zed, Khazhix and Jayce.
Out of 8 that's:
- 4½ AP champions (Ryze being the ½ - magic damage, but not stacking AP)
- 3 AD champions
- 4 standard mages (not counting Diana)
- 3 Assasins: 2 AD, 1 AP
- 1 Oddball: Jayce, Non-assassin AD-caster
 

Juul

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Looking at Kha numbers some more, the following seems to be true:
Un-evolved, non-isolated: Q does the same damage as before
Un-evolved, isolated: Q does quite a bit more damage than before
Evolved, non-isolated: Same as before + 8% of missing health, hard to quantify - could be almost nothing, could be a lot.
Evolved, isolated: A LOT more damage than before.

The improved damage comes from scaling by % instead of flat +damage on isolation.

Curiously, I don't see a lot of appeal in levelling Q though. From rank 1 -> 5, the best case scenario is a 170 dmg difference.
 

Jim Cojones

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I like the changes to Doran items to make them valid level one options but Riot really should do something about how poorly Doran's Ring transition into midgame. In season 2 when you were playing an AP champ that wasn't Anivia, Swain or someone similar you could get 2 Dorans early and if you managed your mana well, it was enough not to run out of it to fast. By the very late game you already had a decent natural mana pool and maybe some minor bonus regen from item like Deathfire Grasp so even if you had to sell one or even both of the Dorans you still had no problem preparing for that one last teamfight that decided the result of the game.

Nowadays Doran gives you almost infinite mana sustain in lane but then you go gank other lane, start fighting for a dragon/baron try to kill them fast or fight for a tower and suddenly you stop being able to cast anything.

Am I really supposed to spend 1k gold early on mana items with 0AP when playing someone like Brand, LeBlanc or Cassio who want to dominate their lane and need just a bit of bonus mana/mana regen, not one million you get from Chalice/Rod/AA? Dorans into Morellonomicon sounds like the only interesting alternative (especially if they nerf Spectral Wraith) but it's not really that good if you don't care about CDR.
 

Grunker

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I guess it will, slightly.
The stories of Zyra and Lissandra are practically completely identical, and other mages have been there as well.

Fuck, I love playing standard AP mages, and fuck, they suck at the minute. RIOT finally makes one that doesn't, and they scheme to send her off to the support rows immeadiately. Thank God, we almost had some competition for the AD-casters and AP assassins there for a while.

I am Grunker - and I am very butthurt about my favourite role getting no love :(

Okay, first let me say that I don't understand the Lissandra nerf at all. I dunno about Zyra as an example as she was pretty fucking broken on release and I still don't think she's that bad on mid. Also, the most popular mid picks, competitively right now are (mostly focusing on Asian-scene, but overall is about the same): Twisted Fate, Orianna, Karthus, Ryze, Diana, Zed, Khazhix and Jayce.
Out of 8 that's:
- 4½ AP champions (Ryze being the ½ - magic damage, but not stacking AP)
- 3 AD champions
- 4 standard mages (not counting Diana)
- 3 Assasins: 2 AD, 1 AP
- 1 Oddball: Jayce, Non-assassin AD-caster

Diana is in no way a standard AP. Hell, even Twisted is stretching it. The 4 (if we include Twisted) are all comparatively old, with Orianna being the newest of the bunch. Remind me of any other standard role in LoL that has seen no new champions stick around?

Nevermind the completely legitimate criticism that they rarely if ever release standard mages - that they turn them into supports as well (a role that already sees enough releases) is not cool.

And you may - based on your own experience - think Zyra is cool mid, but that doesn't change the fact that most people agree with me that she's OK at best.
 

Grunker

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This is nothing but me being butthurt that my favourite thing to play is not in the spotlight right now and hasn't been for a while.
 

Juul

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I guess it will, slightly.
The stories of Zyra and Lissandra are practically completely identical, and other mages have been there as well.

Fuck, I love playing standard AP mages, and fuck, they suck at the minute. RIOT finally makes one that doesn't, and they scheme to send her off to the support rows immeadiately. Thank God, we almost had some competition for the AD-casters and AP assassins there for a while.

I am Grunker - and I am very butthurt about my favourite role getting no love :(

Okay, first let me say that I don't understand the Lissandra nerf at all. I dunno about Zyra as an example as she was pretty fucking broken on release and I still don't think she's that bad on mid. Also, the most popular mid picks, competitively right now are (mostly focusing on Asian-scene, but overall is about the same): Twisted Fate, Orianna, Karthus, Ryze, Diana, Zed, Khazhix and Jayce.
Out of 8 that's:
- 4½ AP champions (Ryze being the ½ - magic damage, but not stacking AP)
- 3 AD champions
- 4 standard mages (not counting Diana)
- 3 Assasins: 2 AD, 1 AP
- 1 Oddball: Jayce, Non-assassin AD-caster

Diana is in no way a standard AP. Hell, even Twisted is stretching it. The 4 (if we include Twisted) are all comparatively old, with Orianna being the newest of the bunch. Remind me of any other standard role in LoL that has seen no new champions stick around?

Nevermind the completely legitimate criticism that they rarely if ever release standard mages - that they turn them into supports as well (a role that already sees enough releases) is not cool.

And you may - based on your own experience - think Zyra is cool mid, but that doesn't change the fact that most people agree with me that she's OK at best.
I explicitly stated "not counting Diana" because I wanted to distinguish between Assassins and non-assassins. I can't say what a standard AP is, as I don't know what your arbitrary idea of 'standard AP' is. Diana and TF seem pretty standard to me.
And again, Diana sure has been sticking around. Syndra to a lesser degree, as she's not really been a contested pick, but is probably the most played 'unconventional' mid.

I think this boils down to: What makes a standard mage to you? From what I gather it's something along the lines of: ranged, high burst, cc-effect, not TF (?).
 

Grunker

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I can't say what a standard AP is, as I don't know what your arbitrary idea of 'standard AP' is. Diana and TF seem pretty standard to me.

You're able to make the distinction between assassin and non-assassin, but you think it's bullshit that I use the term standard AP? There's no reason to get technical here, we're just discussing vague terms here.

Are the differences between Lissandra/Zyra and Diana really so hard to discern? If you really don't think we can even quantify what constitutes a standard, Annie-like mid and what doesn't, there's point in continuing.

And again, Diana sure has been sticking around.

And is, even to you, not a standard AP mage.

Syndra to a lesser degree, as she's not really been a contested pick, but is probably the most played 'unconventional' mid.

I suppose we have to discuss her if we wish to get into this. I'd certainly qualify her as an AP mage, but she isn't exactly a high pick most of the time.

I think this boils down to: What makes a standard mage to you? From what I gather it's something along the lines of: ranged, high burst, cc-effect, not TF (?).

I don't think there's any reason to make this discussion that technical, but if you insist: Let's find our template to a standard mage among the most standard LoL has to offer. Instead of picking one ourselves, let's see what was there in the beginning as the standard AP mid: Annie.

With her as our template we can say that AP-based, ranged, high burst, HARD cc and AoE damage is at the core of the standard AP mid. Why these traits and not the summoning of a bear? Well, she shares these traits with a lot of other AP mids, but not the summoning or the odd shield. Thus, what is common among AP casters mid constitutes the norm.

I.e. the thing that binds together the traditional mage are those concepts.

We can stretch this a bit and say that the ultimate is usually some form of big nuke. Which also explains why Ryze and Twisted are outliers in this category, while Annie, Brand, Orianna, Lissandra, Zyra and so on are all placed firmly in the middle - even champions like Galio are more like a standard AP mage than Twisted, in point of fact - and that's not me saying it, that's based on the criteria that is commong among most of them which have just identified.

So it stands to reason that you can leave out perhaps a single of these traits for something else (like Twisted's non-nuke ult) and still call someone a standard AP caster, but any more and you become too far removed from the core of mages in LoL who all share the same traits.

Based on this, we can discuss the standard mages released since the beginning of 2012:

Sejuani
Ziggs
Nautilus
Fiora
Lulu
Hecarim
Varus
Darius
Draven
Jayce
Zyra
Diana
Rengar
Syndra
Kha'Zix
Elise
Zed
Nami
Vi
Thresh
Quinn
Zac
Lissandra

Those mostly jungled are Sejuani, Nautilus, Hecarim, Rengar, Vi, Zac. They are all played consistently at various level of LoL, and one or two are at the very best of their game. Of these, only one was nerfed into the ground and fell out of favour (Rengar) but only because he was obviously too good and then he was mostly used in the top lane. One of them was recognized as troubled, and got a prompt overhaul (Sejuani).

For top-laners, we have Fiora, Darius, Jayce, Rengar, Elise, Zed. Of these, Fiora is weird failure at creating a melee AD Carry, and the rest are all bog-standard and highly popular picks top with great win ratios mostly. Rengar is the odd one out for the reasons I explained above, but he had his time in the sun. Darius, Jayce, Elise and Zed are all steady picks who despite nerfs to Darius and Elise still see play and are still excellent champions. For Zed, we shall have to see.

For AD carries, we have Varus, Draven and Quinn. Both Varus and Draven are heavily played, and with Quinn as the odd one out, these follow wildly popular champs Graves and Vayne. Quinn is recognized as unplayable and granted a massive buff (buffs to unplayable champions happen in all categories, as we shall see, except standard AP casters).

For supports, among Lulu, Nami and Thresh no one would question that two of them are top tier. The last one again receives buffs due to not being played.

Last before our guests in the spotlight, we have Kha'Zix and Diana. Both are released and marketed as junglers but become mid laners. Both are top tier.

Last, we have the reason for our discussion. Among our four standard AP mids released in this period, Ziggs' kit is too good to make good enough, and thus he is released underpowered and never buffed. In fact, he is even nerfed slightly because his E has potential to cause havoc if used correctly. Can't have that on an AP mid, can we? Due to his bullying, they rob him of any decent hard CC, and as a result he does good at many things but master none, and is not viable. Ziggs today is a fun champ and a good lane bully that simply doesn't fill out any role a modern team will want. Zyra is released to total wreckage. People complain that she is vastly overpowered (though the truth is that she wasn't more overpowered than others on this list - high burst champions always gets the overpowered charge worse than other champions) and she is nerfed into the deep, dark places of the earth, forever condemned to being a support-pick. She remains there now, an AP caster with a burst that's too low to one-shot people, no escape-mechanics and stictly close-range abilities. Next up is Syndra, released to complete hilarity. Gimmicky and underpowered. She receives a buff and as people learn to play around with the tiresome gimmick, she becomes a bit competitive, but she is kept from any true top tier play by virtue of her gimmickyness. Her abilities are powerful and her stun almost too good, and thus another champion with a "volatile" kit is condemned because buffs would make her too good. Then finally we get Lissandra. Finally, a standard AP mage able to hold her own. She isn't played much at the top, but she is fine and most people agree. She has a huge burst and decent CC (though her slow sucks, but is compensated by having both root AND stun on top of this). This all conspires to make an actual nearly viable AP caster mid. Except of course that RIOT promptly nerfs her and makes sure things stay as they are. Assassins and gimmicky shit like Jayce now own the mid lane, and AP casters are last year.

The final nail in the coffin is that we have both junglers, supports and AD Carries who have received major buffs or total overhauls after not being viable. No such boons have been bestowed on standard AP Carries.

Q.E.D
 

Grunker

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tl;dr: grunker is butthurt about ap mid
I was going to phrase a decently-lengthed reply, but it mostly boiled down to this and "learn to adapt n00b".

No way you're getting off the hook that easily. You asked me to provide that long-ass technical definition of AP Caster, you wanted this discussion to be detailed. I was all in for a casual flinging of opinions but suddenly you demanded a proper discussion.

You're up next, pussy, or I'll be considered Teh Winrar in our friendship forever and you must bow down to me :smug:
 

Juul

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I never asked you for a wall of text, you provided that on your own accord. I'll give you your lenghty reply later when I have time, for now I just want to be sure what you're trying to argue:
1. That 'Standard AP' are left in the dark to a bigger degree than 'Standard ADC', 'Standard Jungle', 'Standard Support' and 'Standard Bruiser'.
or
2. That there IS such a thing as 'Standard AP'-characters.
 

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