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So, Baldurs Gate

Silva

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It's nonlinear because you spend lots and lots of time on clearing all those woods and ruins and other sideshow maps. So the sidequests in this game make up a huge part of it and therefore it's clearly a nonlinear experience if you don't just roflstomp through the main quest.
Only Biowhores would think that the main story is the only relevant part of a game regarding nonlinearity.
There are great games where the central story is delegated to the sideline and the "exploration and sidequests" really get the central stage. I can think 3 from the top of my head - Mount & Blade, Stalker CoP, and King of Dragon Pass. The difference is that these games have an actual reactive environment for you to interact which dynamically generate contents, from factions that react to your actions getting allied or hostile, to full-on diplomacy systems, to a reputation system that does more than just low prices, to plots that self-generate according to behaviour, to new game-layers that open up depending on your achievements, to NPCs with self-goals that change the environment for themselves, etc.

Baldurs Gate 1 has neither of those. Its just a game of cleaning square maps through boring combat in a fully static environment.

BUT HEY I ALMOST FORGOT: it has THAC0! and official D&D CLASSES TOO ! and its in FORGOTTEN REALMS!!! Oh, and DRIZZXT and VOLO are playable characters!!!

:yeah:
 
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Xor

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
This conversation is getting stupid.

So if a sidequest ties with the overarching plot in some way, though remaining entirely optional, would that make it part of the game's story or not? Does optional content never count as part of the game's Story?

If those sides have ZERO impact on the ending then yes.
So you're saying a game like Fable, in which every location is visited in the same order every time regardless of player decisions, but which has two endings which you can choose when you defeat the final boss regardless of how good or evil you played the game, is a less linear game than Baldur's Gate because it gives you the choice of ending cutscenes? Would Baldur's Gate have been improved if you were forced to visit each location in a certain order, but during the final confrontation you could join Sarevok and get a slightly different final cutscene? Because that does seem to be the crux of your argument. A game which allows any variation in the plot is less linear than Baldur's Gate.

It would be non-linear if you could avoid Nashkel Mines alltogether.

Not necessarily, what you'd have would be one choice in affecting the plot. The main quest would be non-linear if either parts or the whole of it could happen in different orders. Simply being capable of skipping the Nashkel mines would allow you to skip one of the Main Quest's chapters. Linearity is a word best used for quest structure. Even if you could skip the majority of the main quest a la Morrowind, you still wouldn't change the fact that the main quest is mostly linear. Though I don't think anyone here would call Morrowind a linear game.
They couldn't really let you tackle the story areas in any order because they're balanced for different xp totals. A better solution might have been to introduce multiple ways to find the location of the bandit camp, and then another alternative to exploring the cloakwood mines.

The game doesn't really need that stuff, though. BG1 has more in common with sandbox RPGs than with Fallout; the journey is more important than the destination.
 

DragoFireheart

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So you're saying a game like Fable, in which every location is visited in the same order every time regardless of player decisions, but which has two endings which you can choose when

No good god you're missing the point.

Choosing your ending via Mass Effect 3 style of color-coded choices is not non-linearity, it's retardation. It's non-intelligence. Being able to freely choose your ending in that manner with zero sacrifice or consequence is the antithesis of non-linearity story telling. It's why Fable is moronic design while BG1 is at least passable as a cRPG.

A good example of non-linear story is Fallout: New Vegas. Want to join House and help him regain control of New Vegas? You're going to have to kill a least one group you may like. For each possible path you end up having to experience the consequences of your choices in some manner due to how factions conflict with each other. You don't get any of this with BG1 and certainly not Fable.
 

Scruffy

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Having little nitpicks and clues about "going to Nashkel Mines" from different NPCs dont make it non-linear.

It would be non-linear if you could avoid Nashkel Mines alltogether.

not true. if your quest is "doing X", and to do X you need to find essential clue/thing Y, and essential thing Y is located in Z, then you'll have to go to Z to find the clue.

It's like saying that to solve a murder case you need to examine the murder scene for prints, and complaining that you can't solve it by taking a walk in the mall instead. To solve some stuff you need to do some other specific stuff. To find out wtf is going on in the region, you need to find out what is going on in the region.
You can, of course, ignore the main quest completely, but that doesn't make the game less linear.
 

Lhynn

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There are great games where the central story is delegated to the sideline and the "exploration and sidequests" really get the central stage. I can think 3 from the top of my head - Mount & Blade, Stalker CoP, and King of Dragon Pass. The difference is that these games have an actual reactive environment for you to interact which dynamically generate contents, from factions that react to your actions getting allied or hostile, to full-on diplomacy systems, to a reputation system that does more than just low prices, to plots that self-generate according to behaviour, to new game-layers that open up depending on your achievements, to NPCs with self-goals that change the environment for themselves, etc.

Baldurs Gate 1 has neither of those. Its just a game of cleaning square maps through boring combat in a fully static environment.

BUT HEY I ALMOST FORGOT: it has THAC0! and official D&D CLASSES TOO ! and its in FORGOTTEN REALMS!!! Oh, and DRIZZXT and VOLO are playable characters!!!
This is what we in the codex usually refer to as going "Full retard".

i shall transcribe what silva said:
"The reputation system is not indepth enough (not that ive bothered to research it) so im going to ignore its existence" :retarded:
"Combat in BG is engaging, and challenging, but im going to either cheese or ignore this fact" :retarded:
"You have quests with multiple results all over, but im going to ignore them as well because fuck it":retarded:

"im a bastard with OCD and must clean every single map up to the last square or i wont be able to live with myself. I find this mindnumbingly boring, but i do this anyway because fuck it, thats how i chose to play.":retarded:
"I think people play baldurs gate to meet volo and suck drizzt cock" :retarded:
 

NotAGolfer

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It's nonlinear because you spend lots and lots of time on clearing all those woods and ruins and other sideshow maps. So the sidequests in this game make up a huge part of it and therefore it's clearly a nonlinear experience if you don't just roflstomp through the main quest.
Only Biowhores would think that the main story is the only relevant part of a game regarding nonlinearity.
There are great games where the central story is delegated to the sideline and the "exploration and sidequests" really get the central stage. I can think 3 from the top of my head - Mount & Blade, Stalker CoP, and King of Dragon Pass. The difference is that these games have an actual reactive environment for you to interact which dynamically generate contents, from factions that react to your actions getting allied or hostile, to full-on diplomacy systems, to a reputation system that does more than just low prices, to plots that self-generate according to behaviour, to new game-layers that open up depending on your achievements, to NPCs with self-goals that change the environment for themselves, etc.

Baldurs Gate 1 has neither of those. Its just a game of cleaning square maps through boring combat in a fully static environment.

BUT HEY I ALMOST FORGOT: it has THAC0! and official D&D CLASSES TOO ! and its in FORGOTTEN REALMS!!! Oh, and DRIZZXT and VOLO are playable characters!!!

:yeah:
You could play Drizzt and Volo? Guess I missed sth on my 2 playthroughs. ^^

So you really need to have faction reputations, a diplomatic system and self generating plots to enjoy a CRPG?
Then you must be a very a sad panda, because there isn't much for you out there.
My sympathies and all that.
I'm already content (not happy) fighting my way through a quite challenging, sometimes annoying range of different enemies searching for dead cats, commiting Xvart genocide in order to get their teddybear's fur, killing basilisks and mad necromancer clerics, taking part in graverobbing expeditions, giving ghosts their bed lecture and experiencing all those other odd little stories that sound like something a GM could have put in my game session as diversion to spice things up.
Dunno how faction mechanics would fit in these little story bits. I certainly never missed them through BG1 and 2. Fallout is a whole different story, and even there faction mechanics were not implemented (binary decisions throughout the story, karma and if you attacked a faction member were the switches) and there was no "self generating plot" whatsoever (at least if you don't consider visiting random encounter cave no. 42 as part of the plot ... but then the same would apply to BG).
So besides Mount&Blade (which has decent combat, but a shitty way to tell "stories") and a sandbox shooter that doesn't belong here and a game I have on my harddrive and still need to play, is there even anything out there meeting your standards?
Must suck to never be able to appreciate games for what they are because some nagging voice in your head always has sth to rant about.
liberals
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Killing Drizzt is one of my favorite parts of BG1&2. Smug little bastard get's what's coming to him.

Also, to weigh in on more current discussion: yes, BG is pretty linear - though it has enough side-quests and skippable bits of the main quests that it's not as noticeable as say NWN2 *shudder*. Oh, and BG1 is pretty inferior compared to BG2 in just about every way. I really think it needs BGT (or at least the Enhanced Edition) in order to be truly appreciated, once you've played its sequel.
 

Rake

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So this dog isn't a cat. It objectively sucks as an animal...
You forgot to mention that the games you seem to like more often than not have shit stories. Not that this is a bad thing as they never had the goal to tell a spesific story.
You should just say you don't like storyfag games and leave it at that. Not that BG1 has a good story, but it is structured as that. The game tried to tell a spesific story and not having a random retard like you create his own like King of Dragon Pass does. Different goals.
If that isn't your cup of tea, fair enough. But it isn't a flaw of the game.
 

imweasel

Guest
This thread is fucking stupid. Fuck the hater retard.

:bro:'s to my fellow Baldur's Gate Trilogy bros.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
This thread is fucking stupid. Fuck the hater retard.

:bro:'s to my fellow Baldur's Gate Trilogy bros.
BGT really is so much better than frick'n everything. Makes the entire series into one awesome freaking game. Nothing like being able to use high level sorcerer spells on BG1 enemies if you level enough. :D And it's so much easier to install than it used to be. Back in the day it was such a giant mess. Now it just takes a few clicks. The mod designers should be really proud.


edit:
They couldn't really let you tackle the story areas in any order because they're balanced for different xp totals. A better solution might have been to introduce multiple ways to find the location of the bandit camp, and then another alternative to exploring the cloakwood mines.

The game doesn't really need that stuff, though. BG1 has more in common with sandbox RPGs than with Fallout; the journey is more important than the destination.
There were multiple ways to find the bandit camp though. You can go to the inn or you can pretend to join a bandit group. The mines were a must though...
 
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Zed

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I don't play with mods, but I'll have you know that if I did, I would probably play with Trilogy.
See? I'm hip! I'm down!

I'm playing BG2 as an Undead Hunter at the moment. Even when playing a pretty generic do-gooder, this game is tonsa fun.
 

eremita

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I played BG not too long ago as part of a BG series replay and I have to say it was actually more enjoyable than I remembered. If you enjoy low level adventures, BG1 is really good. Instead of having BG2's pacing which consists of dropping you in the middle of a huge city, being epic all the time and having all these gameplay hooks, BG1 is just a lighthearted open adventure that doesn't try to scratch your OCD itch but still has enough depth to offer, very different from every other RPG released. I even enjoyed the story now that I was older to actually bother reading and had fun ditching Jahera, Khalid and Minsc at the first opportunity for more obscure party members. No where near as bland as NWN2 OC.

This, some people simply prefer (in general or are simply sometimes in the mood for) low level adventure feel of BG1, being in grave danger from a single wolf, arrow or magic missile when you start out, being ecstatic when you finally gather enough money to buy a full plate or when you find even a mundane +1 sword (further emphasized in BG1 due to normal weapons having a tendency to break for plot reasons) etc. for comparison in BG2 and especially TOB you're tripping over powerful weapons/gear.

Also, few CRPGs have as well designed, rich in content cities as Baldur's Gate is, in addition to that Durlag Tower is one of my favourite dungeons in games in general, love the sinister atmosphere, deadly traps and challenging battles.
Exactly. Some people love BG1 becase it's a low level, non-epic, "smaller" game with lots of exploration and non-pressing storytelling.. In some way, It's the closest thing you cant get to pen and paper experience. Same people hate BG2 for the exact same reasons; story is epic with game being much more storyfocused, thus being much more linear in regards of optional content which has nothing to do with main storyline. It's much more pressing and fatal. You being the centre of universe and shit...

I personally think that somehow "weaker", scarce writing is part of BG1's charm...
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
You being the centre of universe and shit...
You make some valid points, so sorry to grab this bit alone, but it goes with a point I forgot to bring up.

Really, BG2 and the entire BG series in general didn't commit the "you are the center of the universe" trope. Sure you were important, but you weren't the chosen one. All you were was a powerful child of a dead god. One of MANY as is revealed at the end of the first game. You weren't fighting to save the world either - like in every other game released today. At best you were fighting people who were trying to kill you and attempting to bring stability to the region. At worst, you were fighting for yourself and in order to gain power.
 

Abelian

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Sorry, couldn't resist.
tmimitm_bgtrilogy_zps660c02c1.jpg
 

DraQ

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*casts Greater Wall of Text*

Why would I want to "solve" anything? Was there a problem to "solve"?
If something isn't a tool for solving some problem and doesn't serve to improve the setting or the atmosphere, then it's spurious shit that gets in the way.

Alignment system is something that shouldn't be in D&D in the first place.

Biography is a one time thing.
Alignments can be observed during play and used as a reminder.
Not biography. Character's description giving GM something to hang on to when evaluating whether the player is successfully staying in character or not.

Alignment system is effectively pointless mechanical insert between player's human-level idea of their character and GM's human level evaluation of their actions. It serves no purpose but to open way for lazy, derpy shit.

Trait systems like GURPS can lead to monsters even more horrible than any one made by alignments.
That wholly depends on trait system in question and its trait set.

Traits are much easier to codify with mechanical consequence than nebulous concepts of good or evil.
Alignments neither let you have your cookie nor eat it.
I think a question if LG planetar is still LG if he taken his LGness to absolute (by opening portal to hell) or is evil nighthag is still evil if she sits around labyrinth thinking of her scarred immortal boyfriend just makes it more interesting. Companion alignments in PST are also great touch and spice things up. Like Morte is one curious CG of a kind.
It's a question used to deconstruct the alignment system and yes, it makes PS:T more interesting - by deconstructing the alignment system.

By the way, here is a treatment of the Planes and alignments thats much more interesting (and adult) in my view:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?625619-Planescape-without-alignments-(long)
Could be somewhat interdasting.

Might be true, dunno. Not for me though, I remember having lots of trouble with spellcasting opponents in BG1, at least without metagaming. These fights always turned into a mess if I didn't force them to waste their spells on summoned cannon fodder.
Scouting ahead with thief hiding in shadows isn't metagaming, yet it fucks up BG1's gameplay royally (scout, retreat, justified and tactically sound preemptive fireball/stinking cloud opener on known enemy position - problem, "I don't work unless withing party's FoV" AI?).

As for spellcasters, they were either trivial, randumb or metagame-y in BG1, relying either on no-brainer bakcstab from shadows/disruption with M&Ms/acid arrow, concentrated barage of ranged attacks in hope that at least one of them hits, or knowing exactly which protections to employ beforehand.

Colourful squigglies during casting were somewhat helpful in discerining threat but not in themselves sufficient.

]
learning by doing leveling (which is no option for a party based game).
Wizardry 8.

Or maybe the Elder Scrolls games prove that true sandbox games just cannot into engaging storytelling
They shouldn't really try in the first place. Player can fuck up any elaborate storyline in a sandbox game and NPCs' primary purpose is creating illusion of their place in the gameworld and providing wide variety of information if asked, not being interesting conversation partners.
Morrowind succeeded in those regards, it also moved much of elaborate and engaging storytelling into the past, as backstory is impervious to player's meddling - and kudos for that.

Daggerfall was uneven - on one hand good story, politics, scale, and individual immersive and complex mechanics, OTOH everything was sort of disjoint and separated from each other, most quests were just differening facades for sending you to X to find Y and do Z with it and so on.

Very ambitious, but I overall rate Morrowind higher because it was more to it than sum of its parts, while DF was just sum of it's parts, even though nearly all those parts were individually greater (for example both chargen and enchanting were the stuff of legends).


In any case Morrowind trumps BG1 in every imaginable area short of party gameplay and possibly music - C&C, setting, story, atmosphere, exploration, lore, everything.
Even combat is arguably less shitty than in BG1 because at least you don't have to babysit six braindead lemmings and have more influence on not dying randumbly at low levels.
Those names are actually pretty cool in fantasy terms. No idea why to criticize them. Compared to modern "cRPG's" these are outstanding.
Isabela, Anders, Aveline, Fenris, Bethany, Sebastian, Merrill, Varric? I would better take BG 2 companions names.
Ok, the problem is with me then. I like fantasy that is more grounded somehow, like Skyrim and its names that at least sound nordic or something, or Arcanum with its Virgils and Magnus and Cynthias and Joaquims and Thorvalds and Sebastians, and King of Dragon Pass with its pseudo-saxon names, etc.

The traditional high-fantasy aesthetic always sounded too butterflyesque / faggy to me.
True dat. For example TES has racial/cultural naming conventions it sticks to.

Although...
Yeah, that's just different style. Also, it's not Baldurs Gate phenomena, because they used it in AD&D campaigns a lot. Can't really imagine a huge dwarf(lol) named Johnathan or epic Thayan mage called Rick.


So I guess BG names are ok.
Nothing to write home about but not actively irksome either.

They could at least have tried. Like calling him Martinus to stay with the Roman theme of the empire. But no...
Oblivion was the game where no one tried.

A massive condensed pile of pure awful that should stand forever as a reminder of what happens when people don't even try.

Fixed.

Sapkowski is quite known for just taking all sorts of :hearnoevil: random shit when inventing his fantasy names.
:troll:

I give up on Baldurs Gate 1. Im not having any pleasure at all playing this. The story is bland and uninteresting
If it's any consolation it gets a bit better some 4/5 - 5/6 in.
:troll:

the "exploration" consists of lighting large squares in search of enemies to kill (through boring combats) and loot. NPCs are shallow, and the dialogues are passable. It must be the most overrated game ever.
Yes.
At least that side of Oblivion.

By the way, I think that from a game design POV, Baldurs Gate was released at a bad time, because it got obfuscated (again, game design wise) by Fallout and its groundbreaking interactive-reactive environment that makes the kind of combat-focused environment in Baldurs Gate and most others that preceded it look shallow and unidimensional in comparison. I mean, by the time folks at Bioware were developing BG, the zeitgeist checklist for crpgs should look like:

- cool sleeping animated sequences
- NPCs with (some) personality
- cool spells gfx and effects
- portrayal of actual tabletop systems (like D&D)
- etc.

and then comes Fallout and the zeitgeist changes radically to:

- reactive environment that actually changes and responds to your behaviour like an alive and breathing world
- choice & consequence
- multiple ways to succeed at quests
- viables ways for playing the game aside from pure combat
- multi-branching central plot
- etc.

Its like Baldurs Gate was Daikatana and Fallout was Half-Life. The difference is that Daikatana didnt have the legions of D&D fans to support its godawful final product.
:bro:

swordcoast.gif


Yep it's a total corridor shooter
Oblivion must be the least linear game ever, 111/10 GOTM.

Baldurs Gate is linear, because you cant change the way the story unfolds no matter what. Compare this to Fallout and see the difference.
.

Well, baldurs gate is interesting in the way that it never left me frustrated because i didnt get to do what i wanted, all the time i felt like i was moving forward on my own volition and motivations, didnt matter if i was playing an evil motherfucker or an angel. It didnt feel linear because most of the time i could just set my own goals and solve the things in my own way, and while its true that the end is the same no matter what you do, it comes across as a natural conclusion to it, that is decent writing.
At the same time the feel of the game changed depending on what kind of character i was playing, just because of those limited times were your input matters. It doesnt take replays nearly as well as fallout does tho.
:hmmm: <--click

Not necessarily, what you'd have would be one choice in affecting the plot. The main quest would be non-linear if either parts or the whole of it could happen in different orders. Simply being capable of skipping the Nashkel mines would allow you to skip one of the Main Quest's chapters. Linearity is a word best used for quest structure. Even if you could skip the majority of the main quest a la Morrowind, you still wouldn't change the fact that the main quest is mostly linear. Though I don't think anyone here would call Morrowind a linear game.
I'd say that the game's linearity is a function of how well you can express the game's content as a linear sequence of events without losing stuff in translation.

Just skipping stuff or doing stuff in different order without one task influencing the other doesn't make the game less linear in this sense and BG is pretty fucking linear in this regard - other than some exceedingly minor C&C in some sidequests and encounters it pretty much has no nonlinearity to speak of.

OTOH if you take Morrowind you not only have ability to skip stuff, but you get huge, mutually exclusive chunks of optional content (great house questlines, vampiric clans, FG fork), minor decision forks in some quests, alternative quest entry points, instrumental decisions altering how a quest plays out even without changing the ending (for example disguising yourself as an ordinator when infiltrating the Ministry of Truth if you're humanoid, ability to replace one of great house hortator sub-questlines with your respective great house faction progression, ability to replace all of hortator/nerevarine sub-questlines with any sequence of side- and faction quests raking you enough reputation, backpath giving you its own separate content, and so on.

Morrowind, while not a paragon of nonlinearity and C&C by any means, still has quite a lot of it.
This, some people simply prefer (in general or are simply sometimes in the mood for) low level adventure feel of BG1, being in grave danger from a single wolf, arrow or magic missile when you start out, being ecstatic when you finally gather enough money to buy a full plate or when you find even a mundane +1 sword (further emphasized in BG1 due to normal weapons having a tendency to break for plot reasons)
Too bad everything else is shit to meh.

They couldn't really let you tackle the story areas in any order because they're balanced for different xp totals. A better solution might have been to introduce multiple ways to find the location of the bandit camp, and then another alternative to exploring the cloakwood mines.
A *good* solution would be different hooks (Jaheira and Khalid, Xzar and Motaron, etc.) driving you in different directions, and stuff happening meanwhile in locations you don't visit.
Instead of following chain of similar evil bad NPCs you'd get to one of them, while the other would make some scripted move (or have scripted move made against them) meanwhile.
For example you might get pointed towards bandit Camp, Cloakwood, or Nashkel, learning different parts of the plot and getting different loot and party members in the process.
It would also shorten the derpy and dragged out quest chain before you get framed and plot finally starts to move on.
The game doesn't really need that stuff, though. BG1 has more in common with sandbox RPGs than with Fallout; the journey is more important than the destination.
I'd say Fallout has quite a lot in common with sandbox RPGs, it's just that unlike BG1 it's done well.
 

Shadenuat

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Alignment system is effectively pointless mechanical insert between player's human-level idea of their character and GM's human level evaluation of their actions. It serves no purpose but to open way for lazy, derpy shit.
I don't understand your argument. Why is it pointless? Essentially, the only person who can evaluate character's actions is the player who plays him. Player is the creator, thus he is the only one who knows character best, and he can dismiss any GM's critique on it's basis. GM and player may never agree on anything since their perception of, well, everything, can be different. Alignments give them some common ground to work on and discuss, and some common knowledge of setting morality and it's cosmology. The plug&play mythology of D&D allows people to work on creating characters who follow it's rules and fit the setting.

It's a question used to deconstruct the alignment system and yes, it makes PS:T more interesting - by deconstructing the alignment system
Where you see deconstruction, I see challenge. Alignments and Planescape cosmology work in absolutes, and absolutes are discussed and challenged in real world just as in fictional worlds. If Planescape setting wouldn't exist in the first place with it's myriad of mythological tropes and fairy tale ambiguity, there wouldn't be anything to challenge. It's the idea of meeting the personifications of human ideals and absolutes (angels, demons, gods) which moves it.
 

DraQ

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"The reputation system is not indepth enough (not that ive bothered to research it) so im going to ignore its existence" :retarded:
You mean the grorious system you could manipulate almost as easily as karma in Fagout 3, and which causes people (well, drofs) like Kagain leave the party in disgust because they apparently don't like to be showered with gold and epic items as well as not liking to get good prices in shops?
:roll:
Really, ignoring its existence only does it an undeserved favour.

I don't understand your argument. Why is it pointless?
Because it serves no purpose?
Last time I checked it was the very definition of pointless.
It's like English speaker trying to communicate with another English speaker by translating everything to Chinese and then back to English.

Since on one side you have player having to actively pigeonhole his character into one of nine alignments using his fuzzy meatbag logic, and on the other you have GM using fuzzy meatbag logic to translate this alignment into what it's supposed to actually mean in the context of actions and intentions within gameworld, why not just throw away this bit of dangling mechanics away and just use fuzzy meatbag logic to translate character description into restrictions and compulsions in regards to their acts and intent?

Why sandwich pointless bit of mechanics between wholly human dependent interpretation of character on one side and likewise interpretation of acts and intents on the other?

Essentially, the only person who can evaluate character's actions is the player who plays him. Player is the creator, thus he is the only one who knows character best, and he can dismiss any GM's critique on it's basis. GM and player may never agree on anything since their perception of, well, everything, can be different. Alignments give them some common ground to work on and discuss, and some common knowledge of setting morality and it's cosmology.
Except they don't. If they are disagreeing about terms when discussing in natural language (for example what exactly is honorable), they will disagree about terms when discussing using language of alignment grid (for example what the fuck is chaotic neutral).

Where you see deconstruction, I see challenge. Alignments and Planescape cosmology work in absolutes, and absolutes are discussed and challenged in real world just as in fictional worlds.
Except you can't challenge facts and alignments are a fact in PS.

You can however use the setting to deconstruct or subvert it's own assumptions and it's great fun.
 

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