So, Baldurs Gate

[Delterius]

 

[Silva]

I give up on Baldurs Gate 1. Im not having any pleasure at all playing this. The story is bland and uninteresting , the "exploration" consists of lighting large squares in search of enemies to kill (through boring combats) and loot. NPCs are shallow, and the dialogues are passable. It must be the most overrated game ever. Im going straight to Baldurs Gate 2 now. Wish me luck.

By the way, I think that from a game design POV, Baldurs Gate was released at a bad time, because it got obfuscated (again, game design wise) by Fallout and its groundbreaking interactive-reactive environment that makes the kind of combat-focused environment in Baldurs Gate and most others that preceded it look shallow and unidimensional in comparison. I mean, by the time folks at Bioware were developing BG, the zeitgeist checklist for crpgs should look like:

- cool sleeping animated sequences
- NPCs with (some) personality
- cool spells gfx and effects
- portrayal of actual tabletop systems (like D&D)
- etc.

and then comes Fallout and the zeitgeist changes radically to:

- reactive environment that actually changes and responds to your behaviour like an alive and breathing world
- choice & consequence
- multiple ways to succeed at quests
- viables ways for playing the game aside from pure combat
- multi-branching central plot
- etc.

Its like Baldurs Gate was Daikatana and Fallout was Half-Life. The difference is that Daikatana didnt have the legions of D&D fans to support its godawful final product.

 

[Delterius]

I'm really convinced that BG1 is BG2's NwN2 OC. People do it out of a completionist streak, even though its the second game that is, in any way, remarkable (as is MoTB). Nonetheless, those who prefer BG1 over 2 do so because they wish BG1's sandboxy approach was executed with the same production values as SoA was. Not saying that BG1 isn't decent, but there's no comparison to BG2.

 

[Renegen]

I played BG not too long ago as part of a BG series replay and I have to say it was actually more enjoyable than I remembered. If you enjoy low level adventures, BG1 is really good. Instead of having BG2's pacing which consists of dropping you in the middle of a huge city, being epic all the time and having all these gameplay hooks, BG1 is just a lighthearted open adventure that doesn't try to scratch your OCD itch but still has enough depth to offer, very different from every other RPG released. I even enjoyed the story now that I was older to actually bother reading and had fun ditching Jahera, Khalid and Minsc at the first opportunity for more obscure party members. No where near as bland as NWN2 OC.

 

[Scruffy]

Baldur’s Gate isn’t godawful. It’s a bland game way too full of filler content, with a meh plot and forgettable characters. It’s also a fun implementation of D&D 2nd edition that allows you to merrily stomp around the Sword Coast, kill stuff and visit places in the Realms. To better sum up BG1: it’s good for what it is. But there’s much, much worse and boring stuff, like Skyrim for instance.

 

[octavius]

To me BG1 is the game that most benefit from a few choice mods.

 

[Silva]

Let me put it this way: If we stripped Baldurs Gate 1 of its D&Desque fantasy aesthetic and swapped it for another one completely different (say, Wild West) while retaining the exact gameplay as is, would you still like the game ?

(because I suspect people love the game more for it being a electronic portrayal of D&D than by its own merits gameplay wise)

 

[Infinitron]

and then comes Fallout and the zeitgeist changes radically

Haha you wish.

 

[Athelas]

I thought Fallout 1 was released before Baldur's Gate? And Fallout diidn't change the zeitgeist - Baldur's Gate is still (sadly) the template for RPG's.

 

[Silva]

Yup, Fallout 1 is 1997. Baldurs Gate 1 is 1998.

and then comes Fallout and the zeitgeist changes radically

Haha you wish.

Was there other game that blended C&C + multi-solution quests + viable non-combat builds before Fallout ?

( was there true C&C before Fallout ? )

 

[Lhynn]

Let me put it this way: If we stripped Baldurs Gate 1 of its D&Desque fantasy aesthetic and swapped it for another one completely different (say, Wild West) while retaining the exact gameplay as is, would you still like the game ?

Yes, it would probably be even better, forgotten realms is a shitty setting with retarded tropes.

 

[Infinitron]

Was there other game that blended C&C + multi-solution quests + viable non-combat builds before Fallout ?

( was there true C&C before Fallout ? )

Yes there was, although perhaps not quite as well.

But my point was, the zeitgeist didn't change radically. (Except of course in the minds of a few geeks who later founded a certain forum you may have heard of.)

 

[Scruffy]

Let me put it this way: If we stripped Baldurs Gate 1 of its D&Desque fantasy aesthetic and swapped it for another one completely different (say, Wild West) while retaining the exact gameplay as is, would you still like the game ?

(because I suspect people love the game more for it being a electronic portrayal of D&D than by its own merits gameplay wise)

I’d (personally) probably like it less, because I’ve always been a huge Forgotten Realms fag. The idea of being able to travel around the Realm in graphics that weren’t composed of 6 pixels was what made me like BG. And while I DID know that exploring ANOTHER wood to kill 20 orcs/tasloi/goblins/whatever was not my idea of a good RPG, I still enjoyed “being” there. I replayed it years after and still sort of enjoyed the romp. It’s of course not the game I play if I want to be “mentally” entertained.

edit
the good part DOES start after you enter BG btw

 

[DragoFireheart]

If you're actually comparing Baldur's Gate with a JRPG in terms of linearity then you either haven't actually ever played a JRPG or you're trying way too hard (or both)

How is BG1 not linear?

 

[Infinitron]

If you're actually comparing Baldur's Gate with a JRPG in terms of linearity then you either haven't actually ever played a JRPG or you're trying way too hard (or both)

How is BG1 not linear?

Yep it's a total corridor shooter

 

[DragoFireheart]

If you're actually comparing Baldur's Gate with a JRPG in terms of linearity then you either haven't actually ever played a JRPG or you're trying way too hard (or both)

How is BG1 not linear?

Yep it's a total corridor shooter

Sidequests != non-linearity.

Edit: Adjusted just for Lhynn.

 

[Athelas]

Most jRPG's don't even have sidequests.

 

[Infinitron]

They are if you're talking about JRPG levels of linearity!

Although, to be fair, the better class of JRPGs do open up somewhat near the end of the game.

 

[Lhynn]

i fucking hate when a cunt quotes a post with huge pics, especially if its on the same page, at least edit them out you fuck.

 

[DragoFireheart]

i fucking hate when a cunt quotes a post with huge pics, especially if its on the same page, at least edit them out you fuck.

I hate when people bitch mindlessly.

Waiting for it...

They are if you're talking about JRPG levels of linearity!

Although, to be fair, the better class of JRPGs do open up somewhat near the end of the game.

I hope you're kidding. jRPGs can have just as many sidequests as cRPGs if not more.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not kidding. I'm also not talking just about "sidequests". Look at the sheer amount of places you can go! The game simply isn't "linear" in the way the term is commonly understood. Its main storyline is linear, sure, but the game itself isn't.

Very few games have non-linear main storylines - and when they are "non-linear", it usually takes the form of sequence breaking, like going straight to Dagoth Ur in Morrowind and beating the game in ten minutes instead of going through the main quest.

 

[octavius]

Let me put it this way: If we stripped Baldurs Gate 1 of its D&Desque fantasy aesthetic and swapped it for another one completely different (say, Wild West) while retaining the exact gameplay as is, would you still like the game ?

Personally, yes.
If Fallout had the same encounter design and combat options as BG1 I would probably have loved it even more than I love the BG games.

It's odd, but for some reason it's almost only the AD&D games (Gold Box, IE and ToEE) that have good combat among the pure CRPGs.
Even though combat is so important in most CRPGs, the combat mechanics and encounter design is so half-assed in too many games.

 

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not kidding. I'm also not talking just about "sidequests". Look at the sheer amount of places you can go! Look, the game simply isn't "linear" in the way the term is commonly understood. Its main storyline is linear, sure, but the game itself isn't.

This is what I was referring to.

 

[Silva]

Baldurs Gate is linear, because you cant change the way the story unfolds no matter what. Compare this to Fallout and see the difference.

It's odd, but for some reason it's almost only the AD&D games (Gold Box, IE and ToEE) that have good combat among the pure CRPGs.

Funny you say that. I find D&D-like combat boring and uninsteresting with its focus on buffs/spells/potions management. Id rather have Fallout, UFO, Jagged Alliance, Silent Storm, Front Mission, etc. combat any day.

 

[Lhynn]

Well, baldurs gate is interesting in the way that it never left me frustrated because i didnt get to do what i wanted, all the time i felt like i was moving forward on my own volition and motivations, didnt matter if i was playing an evil motherfucker or an angel. It didnt feel linear because most of the time i could just set my own goals and solve the things in my own way, and while its true that the end is the same no matter what you do, it comes across as a natural conclusion to it, that is decent writing.
At the same time the feel of the game changed depending on what kind of character i was playing, just because of those limited times were your input matters. It doesnt take replays nearly as well as fallout does tho.