So, Baldurs Gate

[Silva]

Well, baldurs gate is interesting in the way that it never left me frustrated because i didnt get to do what i wanted, all the time i felt like i was moving forward on my own volition and motivations, didnt matter if i was playing an evil motherfucker or an angel. It didnt feel linear because most of the time i could just set my own goals and solve the things in my own way, and while its true that the end is the same no matter what you do, it comes across as a natural conclusion to it, that is decent writing.
At the same time the feel of the game changed depending on what kind of character i was playing, just because of those limited times were your input matters. It doesnt take replays nearly as well as fallout does tho.

tl;dr:

"The game is shit so I LARPED my ass out of it".

 

[Shadenuat]

Thread just made me re-install BG2 with Sword Coast Stratagems again, you can all go to hell.

 

[Delterius]

Baldur's Gate isn't linear because you don't have follow the same sequence of events. You can go to Nashkel because Khalid and Jaheira tell you to; because of random rumours about the mines; because of the underwhelming carnival; or even those of the mad Captain of the Guard*; because of Xzar and Montaron; or even after saving some girl's undead cat in the middle of the wasteland. Something that just occurred to me, and that I'm 99% sure is possible, is that you can also approach the Nashkel mines from its back entrance, entirely oblivious to the main plot.

*There are so many rumours that point to Nashkel you'd think the game's simulating a desperate DM who's trying to railroad the plot.

 

[Lhynn]

"The game allowed me to roleplay my character, it should be called RPG".

PS: im pretty sure LARPING does not mean what you think it means.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Baldur's Gate isn't linear because you don't have follow the same sequence of events. You can go to Nashkel because Khalid and Jaheira tell you to; because of random rumours about the mines; because of the underwhelming carnival; or even those of the mad Captain of the Guard*; because of Xzar and Montaron; or even after saving some girl's undead cat in the middle of the wasteland. Something that just occurred to me, and that I'm 99% sure is possible, is that you can also approach the Nashkel mines from its back entrance, entirely oblivious to the main plot.

*There are so many rumours that point to Nashkel you'd think the game's simulating a desperate DM who's trying to railroad the plot.

Sequence breaking != non-linear.

You can't join the main bad guy.
You can't become a Bhaal spawn yourself ala the plot.
You can't deviate from the story. There is one ending and no way to change it besides getting a game over screen.

 

[Abelian]

Let me put it this way: If we stripped Baldurs Gate 1 of its D&Desque fantasy aesthetic and swapped it for another one completely different (say, Wild West) while retaining the exact gameplay as is, would you still like the game ?

(because I suspect people love the game more for it being a electronic portrayal of D&D than by its own merits gameplay wise)

I actually hadn't heard of D&D when I first finished BG1 (didn't read the manual, learned mechanics through experimentation), so that wasn't a factor for me.
But I will admit that the game's aesthetics were a large draw for me, including the background art, music, item descriptions, character portraits </graphicswhore>.

It also required me to pay attention to where I was supposed to go next and what people to talk to, and the right conversation options could change a conversation's resolution and effects.

So it may not be the most innovative RPG, but when your previous RPG experience is limited to Diablo 1, I would consider BG1 an improvement in terms of non-combat content.

tl;dr: It's a good starter RPG when all you know is action RPGs.

 

[Delterius]

Baldur's Gate isn't linear because you don't have follow the same sequence of events. You can go to Nashkel because Khalid and Jaheira tell you to; because of random rumours about the mines; because of the underwhelming carnival; or even those of the mad Captain of the Guard*; because of Xzar and Montaron; or even after saving some girl's undead cat in the middle of the wasteland. Something that just occurred to me, and that I'm 99% sure is possible, is that you can also approach the Nashkel mines from its back entrance, entirely oblivious to the main plot.

*There are so many rumours that point to Nashkel you'd think the game's simulating a desperate DM who's trying to railroad the plot.

Sequence breaking != non-linear.

You can't join the main bad guy.
You can't become a Bhaal spawn yourself ala the plot.
You can't deviate from the story. There is one ending and no way to change it besides getting a game over screen.

Sequence breaking is the very definition of 'non-linearity'. If you want to complain about 'the lack of flexibility of the main plot', use those goddamn words. Ideally you want to have both but you can't really conflate C&C and the linearity of storytelling. One does not necessarily lead to the other: there are still things like story branching, linear progressions with deviations.

Even then, most of the game's story is made up of side quests. Some of which are rather interesting, full of small details that you can miss, though the sheer quality doesn't really compare to the sequel. Sure, there's very little flexibility to the quests themselves but, these days, the choice of breaking the linear progression of even side quests is a rare luxury. Moreso the lack of a quest compass that effectively linearizes an otherwise good sandbox, a la Skyrim, so I wouldn't easily dismiss even the relatively unsatisfactory freedom that BG1 gives you.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Sequence breaking is the very definition of 'non-linearity'. If you want to complain about 'the lack of flexibility of the main plot', use those goddamn words.

I'm not kidding. I'm also not talking just about "sidequests". Look at the sheer amount of places you can go! Look, the game simply isn't "linear" in the way the term is commonly understood. Its main storyline is linear, sure, but the game itself isn't.

This is what I was referring to.

How about you read my posts you illiterate peasant.

 

[Delterius]

That's even worse. You've singled one quest quest chain out of the entire game as if it exists in isolation. It doesn't. Not only is the vast majority of the game's content made up of side quests, those cause you to approach certain portions of the main quest from different directions. There are almost ten different reasons the game gives you to go to Nashkel, all of which involve exploring the southern portion of the map in one way or another. Sure, you can be a good little player and do things Gorion's way but you don't really have to. I'm almost sure you can even skip the entire first 'dungeon' (Nashkel Mines) by sheer luck.

Again, since earlier on you complained that you can't change the story, you should chastise BG1 exactly for that. Not for its supposed non-linearity.

 

[Infinitron]

You can't skip the Nashkel Mines since Tranzig won't show up in Beregost and tell you where the Bandit Camp is until you've cleared them out.

And if you mean finding the back entrance and getting directly to Mulahey, I'm pretty sure that's a one way only exit.

 

[Delterius]

And if you mean finding the back entrance and getting directly to Mulahey, I'm pretty sure that's a one way only exit.

That was what I was wondering. Too bad.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Again, since earlier on you complained that you can't change the story, you should chastise BG1 exactly for that. Not for its supposed non-linearity.

When I say linear, I'm referring to the story. I couldn't care less about the quest structure. If story line B1 and A1 both lead to ending C where I have to fight the main bad guy all the same, it's linear.

And I am chastising BG1 for it's linear story. Holy shit dude.

 

[Delterius]

So if a sidequest ties with the overarching plot in some way, though remaining entirely optional, would that make it part of the game's story or not? Does optional content never count as part of the game's Story?

Because, as others have said, BG1 is a fun recreation of low level D&D. Its not just the story of a bhaalspawn investigating the Iron Throne conspiracy, as that you'll only find out in the mid to late game, its also the story of random adventuring across a high fantasy realm. Everything you do in the game is part of the story. As always, it could use better C&C and it could flesh out the places you explore a bit more, but they are still part of the experience. Thus the sequence of the events is still non linear. You can still choose wether or not to partake in a large part of the game and you can still miss a lot of content.

Which is why I think there should be a distinction between a game being non-linear and/or providing no hand holding in exploration (which allows for actual discovery, perhaps even in later playthroughs) and something that goes beyond even that, which is the game's content interacting and changing with each other, depending on the player's choices or on the order of completion. We all want the latter, but the former isn't to be taken for granted and can still lead to some glee when you've played a certain under-budgeted but well designed Action RPG seven times with each class only to have missed a cutscene here and there.

 

[Silva]

Having little nitpicks and clues about "going to Nashkel Mines" from different NPCs dont make it non-linear.

It would be non-linear if you could avoid Nashkel Mines alltogether.

 

[DragoFireheart]

So if a sidequest ties with the overarching plot in some way, though remaining entirely optional, would that make it part of the game's story or not? Does optional content never count as part of the game's Story?

If those sides have ZERO impact on the ending then yes.

 

[NotAGolfer]

It's nonlinear because you spend lots and lots of time on clearing all those woods and ruins and other sideshow maps. So the sidequests in this game make up a huge part of it and therefore it's clearly a nonlinear experience if you don't just roflstomp through the main quest.
Only Biowhores would think that the main story is the only relevant part of a game regarding nonlinearity.

edit: or in other words: what Delterius said

 

[octavius]

Silva has noticed that Baldur's Gate is not Fallout. Evidently a traumatic experience.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I played BG not too long ago as part of a BG series replay and I have to say it was actually more enjoyable than I remembered. If you enjoy low level adventures, BG1 is really good. Instead of having BG2's pacing which consists of dropping you in the middle of a huge city, being epic all the time and having all these gameplay hooks, BG1 is just a lighthearted open adventure that doesn't try to scratch your OCD itch but still has enough depth to offer, very different from every other RPG released. I even enjoyed the story now that I was older to actually bother reading and had fun ditching Jahera, Khalid and Minsc at the first opportunity for more obscure party members. No where near as bland as NWN2 OC.

This, some people simply prefer (in general or are simply sometimes in the mood for) low level adventure feel of BG1, being in grave danger from a single wolf, arrow or magic missile when you start out, being ecstatic when you finally gather enough money to buy a full plate or when you find even a mundane +1 sword (further emphasized in BG1 due to normal weapons having a tendency to break for plot reasons) etc. for comparison in BG2 and especially TOB you're tripping over powerful weapons/gear.

Also, few CRPGs have as well designed, rich in content cities as Baldur's Gate is, in addition to that Durlag Tower is one of my favourite dungeons in games in general, love the sinister atmosphere, deadly traps and challenging battles.

 

[Lhynn]

What is a main quest? my main quest was getting drunk, after i got to beregost i beat the game, then i went on a little side quest so the south, i found me a super ultra powerful sword +2 on a fresh corpse and went to the mines to see if they were hidding them naked dark elves there, sadly all i found was a crazy cleric that wanted me dead for no apparent reason. I found loot in his chest and a note with details on where another chest with more loot was, and the code name of the stupid motherfucker that wasnt sending a courier with these things to my house in beregost... was a long ass side quest that ended up in me killing my brother for his shinny armor.

 

[Delterius]

It would be non-linear if you could avoid Nashkel Mines alltogether.

Not necessarily, what you'd have would be one choice in affecting the plot. The main quest would be non-linear if either parts or the whole of it could happen in different orders. Simply being capable of skipping the Nashkel mines would allow you to skip one of the Main Quest's chapters. Linearity is a word best used for quest structure. Even if you could skip the majority of the main quest a la Morrowind, you still wouldn't change the fact that the main quest is mostly linear. Though I don't think anyone here would call Morrowind a linear game.

 

[NotAGolfer]

What is a main quest? my main quest was getting drunk, after i got to beregost i beat the game, then i went on a little side quest so the south, i found me a super ultra powerful sword +2 on a fresh corpse and went to the mines to see if they were hidding them naked dark elves there, sadly all i found was a crazy cleric that wanted me dead for no apparent reason. I found loot in his chest and a note with details on where another chest with more loot was, and the code name of the stupid motherfucker that wasnt sending a courier with these things to my house in beregost... was a long ass side quest that ended up in me killing my brother for his shinny armor.

Doesn't sound like ADnD, more like ADHD. ^^

 

[DragoFireheart]

Linearity is a word best used for quest structure.

False.

Linearity can be used to describe story as well. Alternate branches that lead to different endings are non-linear stories.

 

[Lancehead]

It's nonlinear because you spend lots and lots of time on clearing all those woods and ruins and other sideshow maps. So the sidequests in this game make up a huge part of it and therefore it's clearly a nonlinear experience if you don't just roflstomp through the main quest.
Only Biowhores would think that the main story is the only relevant part of a game regarding nonlinearity.

edit: or in other words: what Delterius said

That's open (physical) world, not nonlinear. When people mention Fallout as a nonlinear experience, they mean openness in how they interact with the game's content and in how they solve problems.

 

[Stokowski]

Roguey, Volourn, and DraQ all reply in a thread.

How is it not moved to Retardo Land?

 

[Lhynn]

Roguey, Volourn, and DraQ all reply in a thread.

How is it not moved to Retardo Land?

The staff was probably waiting for you to post in it.