So i just finished AoD

[Big Wrangle]

Anything can become a 'joke' once you deeply know the systems and begin to exploit them. But overall there isn't really that much combat in the game unless you really go for it, so that's not a major issue.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

... AoD's combat is a joke once you know how the game mechanics actually work, so the game is essentially just a (thoughtfully designed) CYOA/ teleport simulator. If removing the pretense of challenge turns the gameplay to shit, the gameplay was shit in the first place.

Even if this were true, it would still be irrelevant. There are rules to play the game in the way it was designed by the developer. You don't get to decide what rules you want to follow, even less use a derisive moniker for people that follow the rules. That's basic as it gets. It shows how popamole and pussies most cRPG players are. If they have to face any sort of frustration or failure, they can't take it. They need to use some sort of cheat code. This shows how much the genre declined. Players not only feel entitled to use cheat code, but say this in the open. Total decline.

 

[Big Wrangle]

I love me an occasional cheat code or console commands when I wanna goof around and shit, so I don't think it's really a huge issue that they exist. It can help if you get stuck in an environment, noclip for 5 seconds and carry on. I will agree that you do kinda lose points if you argue "game is no longer great once I cheesed the systems" with certain games, Dark Souls ceases to be fun once you give yourself a one-hit kill.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I love me an occasional cheat code or console commands when I wanna goof around and shit, so I don't think it's really a huge issue that they exist. It can help if you get stuck in an environment, noclip for 5 seconds and carry on.

That's not the same thing as playing the whole game this way, obviously.

 

[Jason Liang]

I love me an occasional cheat code or console commands when I wanna goof around and shit, so I don't think it's really a huge issue that they exist. It can help if you get stuck in an environment, noclip for 5 seconds and carry on. I will agree that you do kinda lose points if you argue "game is no longer great once I cheesed the systems" with certain games, Dark Souls ceases to be fun once you give yourself a one-hit kill.

Except AoD provides you with an in-game cheat button that any character no matter how pathetic can use. It's called bola choke, aka force choke.

Even if this were true, it would still be irrelevant. There are rules to play the game in the way it was designed by the developer.

Yes. In AoD's case, shitty rules that do nothing to make the game more interesting or enjoyable. AoD is a case where the game has a lot of good content, but it's gimped by a broken combat system and a shitty skill check system.

 

[Big Wrangle]

And that proves the combat is shit because there is a somewhat OP thing that slipped from the designer's hand like almost any RPG ever?

 

[Jason Liang]

And that proves the combat is shit because there is a somewhat OP thing that slipped from the designer's hand like almost any RPG ever?

No. The combat is shit because it's a joke even if played straight. You have to really gimp your character hard to make the combat good.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

AoD's skill check based non-combat gameplay is actually lazy shit.

Skill check non-combat gameplay is what happens when you take skill checks seriously as opposed to putting them on character system just to give the illusion they matter. This "lazy shit" allow you to have more narrative choices and C&C than any other game in the genre, buddy. Your butthurted tone can't disguise how frustrated you were when you failed in them. So you decided to use cheat codes instead because you were too pussy to face the game head on. Yet, the skill checks that are "lazy shit", not you that uses of cheat codes. What a joke.

The combat is shit because it's a joke even if played straight.

Compared to what exactly? Based on what? The assumptions you take out of your ass? Show we just take your word for it? Please explain to us how the combat system is a joke. I can say that about whatever. Humor me.

 

[Jason Liang]

AoD's skill check based non-combat gameplay is actually lazy shit.

Skill check non-combat gameplay is what happens when you take skill checks seriously as opposed to putting them on character system just to give the illusion they matter. This "lazy shit" allow you to have more narrative choices and C&C than any other game in the genre, buddy. Your butthurted tone can't disguise how frustrated you were when you failed in them. So you decided to use cheat codes instead because you were too pussy to face the game head on. Yet, the skill checks that are "lazy shit", not you that uses of cheat codes. What a joke.

The combat is shit because it's a joke even if played straight.

Compared to what exactly? Based on what? The assumptions you take out of your ass? Show we just take your word for it? Please explain to us how the combat system is a joke. I can say that about whatever. Humor me.

You can simply search my many previous posts on AoD, but here are some links where I showed in detail how AoD combat is a joke that can be beaten even by a gimped character-

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-for-a-first-timer.113202/page-4#post-4953412
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/recommend-me-something.113478/page-2#post-4958811

My playthrough slightly into Act 2 before I got bored.

This isn't my playthrough, but you can see that AoD combat is a joke all the way to the end.

Obviously if you play through with a straight combat character it's even more of a joke.

Why is combat in AoD a joke? Because unless you are using a gimped character, you don't actually need to use strategy or tactics to win the fights.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Jason Liang the problem is that Age of Decadence is a single cRPG player where you have dozens of quests and all the SPs and training benefit your character. Naturally, you become powerful. In other words, business as usual like in all cRPGs known to mankind. Hardly something that justifies the combat system being called a joke. If you allow character progression and tons of quests you get too powerful.

Your different choices of build changes the dynamics of your fights completely. The outpost is much more easier for a crossbow user, but the fights in closed spaces will favour a melee build. The strategy you adopt involving a build with spear and shield is entirely different from one involved a sword or a dagger build. This affects your positioning, whether you invest on alchemy, crafting, consumables, bombs, etc. It affects with fights you can pick first and so on. So players can expect a lot of replayability by trying different builds.

Like any non-strategy game, Age of Decadence would benefit by having more weapons, items, status effects, environment mechanics, etc., but that is expected if you consider that in a more mundane setting there is less variety of enemies, and that developers had to spend considerable effort fleshing a heavy story game with tons of choices, text-adventures and content. Again, this hardly qualifies the combat system as a joke.

The steam achievements suggest that only 12% of the players killed more than one hundred people in the course of the game and that 53% of the players died in the first fight. Again, by the standards of most cRPG players, the combat is not a joke. It maybe be a joke for the dude that spend ridiculous amount of time mastering the system inside out, but for most players is definitely not the case.

 

[Jason Liang]

From the very beginning you have access to bolas that can cheat nearly any fight easily.

And if you don't want to waste bolas in act 1, nets, which are super-plentiful, destroy every fight in act 1.

That doesn't even count bombs, which are so plentiful in the game that you can go wild with them.

Even if you don't want to use consumables, you can still knock guys down easily with a marcelus and then fuck them up with hand xbows.

Then, as soon as you get to Act 2, you have access to all sorts of OP weapons and armor in Maadoran that make combat a joke. You can also beeline for the nailgun which makes combat even more of a joke, or power armor.

All of which makes it so that you basically never have to use real strategy or tactics in this game unless you gimp your character.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'd surely like to see a video (ideally the entire Act 1 like Eyestabber glorious ironman video) that shows how easy it is to beat the game without any strategy or tactics. Just knock 'em down with a hammer and shoot them with a crossbow. That easy. Then I'll gladly post every time someone says that combat is way too difficult, which seems to be the consensus, and then everyone will know what an awesome player you are, Jason.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

From the very beginning you have access to bolas that can cheat nearly any fight easily.

Some of your enemies have access to bolas and nets, and you are usually outnumbered.

All of which makes it so that you basically never have to use real strategy or tactics in this game unless you gimp your character.

Ok, so now is the time where you actually make concrete suggestions to fix this problem. How would you avoid the character being so overpowered? Do you have an alternative system in mind? No? I didn’t think so.

 

[Jason Liang]

I'd surely like to see a video (ideally the entire Act 1 like Eyestabber glorious ironman video) that shows how easy it is to beat the game without any strategy or tactics. Just knock 'em down with a hammer and shoot them with a crossbow. That easy. Then I'll gladly post every time someone says that combat is way too difficult, which seems to be the consensus, and then everyone will know what an awesome player you are, Jason.

I'm confused how a video of me beating AoD without using strategy or tactics would show my awesomeness.
I haven't looked, but I'm pretty sure there's plenty of videos of people axe murdering their way through the game, which clearly doesn't require strategy or tactics.
Likewise, beating the game with bombs and bolas isn't actual strategy or tactics either.

Ok, so now is the time where you actually make concrete suggestions to fix this problem. How would you avoid the character being so overpowered? Do you have an alternative system in mind? No? I didn’t think so.

Rance X was released earlier this year and I think it's worth studying how that game is able to scale difficulty in a way that the boss fights constantly require actual strategy and tactics. Combat has to be so difficult that it seems impossible for a game to force the player to actually study the enemy and strategize. There is some equation of character progression, player skill progression, and game difficulty that AoD didn't figure out.

VD, I'll make a deal with you. If you make a video series of yourself playing through Rance X like the Avellone Arcanum video, I'll make an AoD strategy video series for you:D

 

[Big Wrangle]

I saw a video that's about how to become overpowered, but it follows a really specific process and a lot of it is more based on careful allocation to provide loopholes than pure brute force, though at a certain point it somewhat becomes that. There is another of somebody killing Agathoth in one turn, but I'm pretty sure that required a lot of reloads to get the RNGesus blessing.

Anything can be trivialised once cheesed. For every player that winged the combat, a hundred were still struggling.

Rance X was released earlier this year and I think it's worth studying how that game is able to scale difficulty in a way that the boss fights constantly require actual strategy and tactics.

Shouldn't you provide how the game manages that to illustrate your point further instead of a "do the research yourself idk"? What if the research we do somehow leads to us concluding you have no idea what you're talking about? I know this can be read as an insult, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Shouldn't you provide how the game manages that to illustrate your point further instead of a "do the research yourself idk"? What if the research we do somehow leads to us concluding you have no idea what you're talking about? I know this can be read as an insult, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

1000 hours of gameplay later... the game is a joke, Jason. I can beat all my weeabo enemies with this and that.

 

[Tigranes]

roflfuckingmao "i give myself 500 points and this game is broken?? the gameplay must have been shit anyway!!!!!"

the game might or might not be shit but you wouldn't know jack shit

everything else is just an elaborate and pointless attempt to rationalise a stupid position to begin with

 

[mushaden]

How many hours did you play AoD before you decided it was shit Jason Liang ?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Likewise, beating the game with bombs and bolas isn't actual strategy or tactics either.

How is defeating the enemy via immobilization and immolation not using tactics? It's not as though you can just spam bolas--there aren't enough of them to use on every enemy in the game, at least not on the combat heavy paths. Deciding to buy bolas and then deciding when to use them = strategy.

Meta-gaming in order to create a build that can breeze through all of the fights? Also strategy.

 

[Jason Liang]

I saw a video that's about how to become overpowered, but it follows a really specific process and a lot of it is more based on careful allocation to provide loopholes than pure brute force, though at a certain point it somewhat becomes that. There is another of somebody killing Agathoth in one turn, but I'm pretty sure that required a lot of reloads to get the RNGesus blessing.

Anything can be trivialised once cheesed. For every player that winged the combat, a hundred were still struggling.

- If you have trouble hitting, increase your weapon skill.
- If you have trouble staying alive, increase your defense skill.
- Wear good armor and use the best weapon you find/ buy/ craft.
- Drink potions.
- Use nets and bolas like the in-game tips tell you to.

If you do these things you wont have trouble in combat in AoD even if you are playing the game blind. That's not strategy or tactics. That's just a matter of reading, following directions and basic sense.

Rance X was released earlier this year and I think it's worth studying how that game is able to scale difficulty in a way that the boss fights constantly require actual strategy and tactics.

Shouldn't you provide how the game manages that to illustrate your point further instead of a "do the research yourself idk"? What if the research we do somehow leads to us concluding you have no idea what you're talking about? I know this can be read as an insult, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Well I didn't want to derail an AoD thread by writing a long detailed analysis of a completely different game made by a different game studio in a different language, but in brief-

- AliceSoft has always excelled in designing extreme boss fights with over the top difficulty that are unbelievably satisfying when one does stumble upon the correct combination of strategy and luck to beat them. That threshold seems to be between 20%-33% - meaning that using perfect strategy and tactics, you will win only 20%-33% of the time. I mention this since most rpgs designed today are designed and balanced for casuals, and for casuals to get their jollies by killing shit and blowing shit up with cool graphics in the first 10 hours. The Westworld Sweetwater experience. This is not specific to AoD although AoD is guilty of this as well. Rance X was not balanced for casuals.

- Two factors make rpgs easier as the game progresses - character progression and player skill - and therefore rpgs must compensate with increasing difficulty.

- Rance X tracks three forms of character progression: 1) army rank 2) characters collected and 3) character xp. Army rank points are the main form of character progression, and are assigned to unlock fundamental and powerful abilities such as extra character frames, +30% physical damage, +30% magical damage, +30% health, etc... these points can be reassigned before every fight so one major strategic choice is figuring out which combination of army rank abilities is needed to beat an otherwise impossible boss fight. Army rank growth is constant throughout the game, so that the player feels they are growing in power as the game progresses from turn 1 to turn 15. Characters collected are also constant. Each character has two abilities, but initially you can only use 4 characters at one time, which you can increase up to a maximum of 7 (with 3 army points). So another strategic element if figuring the correct combination of characters needed to beat an otherwise impossible boss fight. The third form of character progression, character xp, rewards player foresight - leveling up characters needed in the immediate future rather than just the characters powerful currently. Whereas in AoD, you just level up 1 weapon skill since the game never forces, challenges or even incentivizes you to diversify.

- Rance X tracks game difficulty with an in game difficulty score. As the difficulty score rises, enemies hit harder, resist debuffs easier, and their life total grows exponentially.

- Rance X has multiple endings. Getting the better quality endings, in general, requires accomplishing more difficult objectives. In general every turn, if the player cannot defeat the most difficult objective, they are allowed to continue and attempt an easier but only partially successful objective. Beating the difficult objective raises the difficulty score by 2, while the partially successful objective raises the difficulty score by 1. Therefore, the game's difficulty naturally adjusts to a player's skill. If the player is very skillful, they will be able to beat a greater number of difficult objectives, but the game will also rapidly quickly become more difficult until they reach the limit of their skill and can only pass the partially successful objective. If a player can't even beat the partially successful objective, then they make no game progress, but they still grow more powerful through character progress so that they will eventually be able to make objective progress even if they do not have much skill, although they will then only be able to get a bad ending. And in Rance X, the bad endings are very bad.

- Rance X's best gameplay quality is this system by which the game's difficulty naturally adjusts to the player's own skill, until, like an aptitude test, the game is able to throw challenges at the player that seem just beyond their ability, challenging them to grow by improving their strategy and tactics to overcome that gap, over and over again. It's second best gameplay qualitiy is to allow the player to have the feeling of constant character progression while controlling that progression so that character progression alone is not enough to replace player skill.

 

[Jason Liang]

Likewise, beating the game with bombs and bolas isn't actual strategy or tactics either.

How is defeating the enemy via immobilization and immolation not using tactics? It's not as though you can just spam bolas--there aren't enough of them to use on every enemy in the game, at least not on the combat heavy paths. Deciding to buy bolas and then deciding when to use them = strategy.

Meta-gaming in order to create a build that can breeze through all of the fights? Also strategy.

No it's not.

As I've said many times, try beating all the fights in AoD with a 1/x or 1/1 gimped character with as little cheese (aka alchemy) as you can and you'll understand what is actual strategy and tactics.

It's not that AoD's combat system does not allow strategy or tactics. It's that AoD's combat system doesn't require strategy or tactics to beat since it's broken and a joke. If the AI isn't allowed to knock you down with hammers and shield bashes, your PC shouldn't be able to either. If bolas and bombs are too strong for the AI, they are OP for the player as well.

 

[Jason Liang]

How many hours did you play AoD before you decided it was shit Jason Liang ?

I don't think AoD is shit. There was enough systemfag in me to fiddle around with it until I finally understood why it's actual gameplay failed overall to be fun, despite having several innovative, praise-worthy and well-designed systems.

Easily more than you I think.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Look Jason Liang, when this thing is released on steam you can give me a holler. Otherwise is a waste of time because I can't play the game to see for myself what is what. I'm not optimistic by the way. jRPGs tend to have awful combat and being grindy as fuck.

 

[Jason Liang]

Look Jason Liang, when this thing is released on steam you can give me a holler. Otherwise is a waste of time because I can't play the game to see for myself what is what. I'm not optimistic by the way. jRPGs tend to have awful combat and being grindy as fuck.

Yeah, Rance X is not grindy and the boss fights are awesome. AliceSoft has been designing rpgs for almost 30 years and that experience shows in Rance X.

A lot of us have played the game with machine translation. When it is released on Steam... I'm not optimistic.

 

[mushaden]

I don't think AoD is shit. There was enough systemfag in me to fiddle around with it until I finally understood why it's actual gameplay failed overall to be fun, despite having several innovative, praise-worthy and well-designed systems.

Easily more than you I think.

I know because I remember your posts from the main thread, gleefully offering tips to others and discoveries as you played. But now because somebody else discovered a way to cheese combat using bows years after release, you say the game isn’t fun? Is this inaccurate?