So i just finished AoD

[Parabalus]

I don't recall ever saying anything of that sort. It's not chess, obviously, but it has plenty of depth and complexity. Simplistic combat mechanics are something like click to attack (i.e. no attack choice), no other options (i.e. playing a fighter in BG, for example).

Thats true, but complexity in BG is made by the entire party. And it is a far more complex game than AoD, both tactically and strategically speaking. And that isnt a very high bar.

Bg games having strategy? Are you high? You are swimming in gold and have a built-in cheat button, aka resting.

 

[Smegmalicious]

AoD is shit. It's just save-scumming in an ugly CYOA world without the benefit of an actual bookmark. It's not even a fucking game. You just guess at the best approach, based on your character type (i.e. your class), then hope that your idea synchs up with the one way to get through that the game developers allow you.

It's literally just "Save-scum: the game."

You fucking morons don't even really like it....you just pretend to because getting through it is a ridiculously difficult experience. So to act like you like it makes you somehow some kind of super-masochistic gamer lord? You're just a liar.

You're just a liar, or a fucking retard.

 

[Kalin]

Also the most satisfying way to beat the game isn't godhood. It's murdering all three asshole kings and all three asshole gods.

What? How in the name of...?

Wasn't possible last time I played. Killing Antidas locks you out of killing Gaelius except by means of awakening the dreamer, which in turn means you cannot kill all the gods.

 

[Tito Anic]

It's literally just "Save-scum: the game."

True. But it is not bad?

You fucking morons don't even really like it....

Not true. I like it very much: C&C, battle system, crafting, writing, setting is great

 

[Lhynn]

Bg games having strategy? Are you high? You are swimming in gold and have a built-in cheat button, aka resting.

Party make up, gear selection, spell selection, consumables.

 

[Elhoim]

What? How in the name of...?

Work for Antidas, let the assasins kill Gaelius, kill the dreamer, work for Meru, allow Balzaar to possess him and kill "them both". Go to the temple and kill Agathoth. While you won't murder Antidas himself...

"The demise of House Aurelian and the mysterious death of Lord Meru leave Daratan the last Great House standing, but not for long. For centuries the Imperial Guards were held in check by the combined might of the seven Noble Houses that survived the fall of the Old Empire. One by one they fell, leaving Daratan alone against a much stronger enemy.

Using the assassination of Marcus Carrinas as a pre-text, the Imperial Guards waste no time sending their legions against Teron. Poorly fortified and defended, the town falls within a day. Antidas is captured and beheaded as befits the man of his status. His praetors and officers are treated as common brigands and crucified as a lesson to others.

Sic transit gloria mundi."

If you are disloyal, you survive:

"You could have stayed and died for Antidas, but life's too short to die for other people. So you slip out of Teron when nobody is looking. When the Imperial Guards come to deal with Antidas once and for all, you're already far away.

What the future holds for a praetor without lord is unclear, but at least you're alive, which is more than could be said about your former brethren."

 

[aweigh]

Jason Liang

out of curiosity did you finish Elminage: Gothic?

 

[Jason Liang]

Jason Liang

out of curiosity did you finish Elminage: Gothic?

nope, got sick of it and also my old laptop broke, and I haven't reinstalled either Elminage or AoD on my new laptop yet.

But like I've said before, Elminage made me realize I can't play blobbers anymore. Sadly.

 

[Parabalus]

Bg games having strategy? Are you high? You are swimming in gold and have a built-in cheat button, aka resting.

Party make up, gear selection, spell selection, consumables.

Those don't exist in AoD?

In Bg2 you have far more (disposable) party members, gear and consumables so planning ahead means much less than in AoD/DR.

 

[Jason Liang]

If it's not clear, when I mean strategy, I don't mean high level, broad generic superficial strategy like for example character builds, character progression, weapons, armor, equipment, companions etc...

I mean strategy on the level of strategy pretaining to each specific battle, in terms of a battle being winnable only with a specific plan that is only apparent with practice, experimentation, discovery and meta-knowledge.

For example, if someone needs advice on how to beat a specific battle, and the response is just about generally improving equipment or character build, that's just an extremely superficial and infantile layer of strategy. The strategy that I'm referring to is a specific plan of attack and defense, designed around what the opposing force is capable of in terms of attack and defense.

While I would say that in general Baldur's Gate 2 is not particularly strategic either, some battles occasionally are strategic especially at lower levels; for example the fight where you get Crimson Fury or the Shadow Dragon fight both require real strategy at lower levels.

Tactics on the other hand is figuring out the most effective action in specific situations. This is the layer where AoD is the weakest, since tactics are nearly all obvious and simple- aim where the enemy has the weakest armor, use barbed ammo if they have no armor, use liquid fire to push back melee enemies, throw bombs, nets and bolas at the toughest enemies, etc... There's some tactics that aren't immediately obvious such as knockdown+hand xbows, but that's mostly when you are new to the game and don't actually understand how to play yet. AoD's advanced tactical content is shallow and underdeveloped.

Some people think I have some thing to prove, but I don't. If you don't believe the screencaps I took are real, that's on you, not me. I don't know how Lhynn added 200 skill points, since I played AoD just as it is. I didn't write-up those fights to prove anything (besides that longbows are OP) or to show-off. I wrote them to illustrate to others AoD's (limited) advanced tactics, and to illustrate actual strategy (as opposed to typical superficial strategy that is frankly sophomoric). If I make the videos, I am doing it to be helpful to VD and ITS, not because I need to prove anything. If you don't believe that 95% of the fights in AoD can be beaten with a 1/x or 1/1 character, that's just your own ignorance. And if you think I replayed those fights tens or hundreds of times, taking screencaps every time hoping for 1/100 luck odds, you are retarded.

If you want to test the strategies out or make videos yourselves, I might still have the savegames for those characters on my old laptop that I could put in a zipfile or something.

 

[Big Wrangle]

This is when he utters some more patronising comments repeating his earlier claims, before disappearing from the thread never having presented any such video

 

[Lhynn]

Those don't exist in AoD?

In Bg2 you have far more (disposable) party members, gear and consumables so planning ahead means much less than in AoD/DR.

In AoD you plan ahead exactly once, then all you do is validate your choice or suffer if you stray from it. It may weight more, but its unsatisfying because you just go through the motions.

 

[Jason Liang]

This is when he utters some more patronising comments repeating his earlier claims, before disappearing from the thread never having presented any such video

Merry Christmas bitchfaces.

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=88655685254382574854

This should be the entire gamesaves for the characters used in the write-ups. Do whatever the fuck you want with it.

 

[MajorMace]

Those don't exist in AoD?

In Bg2 you have far more (disposable) party members, gear and consumables so planning ahead means much less than in AoD/DR.

In AoD you plan ahead exactly once, then all you do is validate your choice or suffer if you stray from it. It may weight more, but its unsatisfying because you just go through the motions.

It's my feelings exactly.
C&c in AOD is super weird because of this. The only choice you make, basically, is the character build. Then the game undirectly dictates your subsequent "choices" by its design, which will simply turn most consequences into solid, impassable walls. It feels very weird, and gives it a very strong deterministic feel, if not fatalist.
Which ultimately, though, is satisfyingly consistent with the themes of the game. It is a very fatalist oeuvre, through and through. I don't know if that was intentional, but the result is there anyway.

 

[Lhynn]

Yeah, im obviously generalizing, you still have some choices to make here and there. Like betraying someone or how you resolve some quests. But the general strategy remains the same.

 

[Parabalus]

Those don't exist in AoD?

In Bg2 you have far more (disposable) party members, gear and consumables so planning ahead means much less than in AoD/DR.

In AoD you plan ahead exactly once, then all you do is validate your choice or suffer if you stray from it. It may weight more, but its unsatisfying because you just go through the motions.

In Bg I pick a class at start and decide on party ahead of time, how is it different?
In IE you don't even have relevant character advancement choices after pick a class until you get to HLAs, maybe thief skill point distribution in early Bg1.

Those don't exist in AoD?

In Bg2 you have far more (disposable) party members, gear and consumables so planning ahead means much less than in AoD/DR.

In AoD you plan ahead exactly once, then all you do is validate your choice or suffer if you stray from it. It may weight more, but its unsatisfying because you just go through the motions.

It's my feelings exactly.
C&c in AOD is super weird because of this. The only choice you make, basically, is the character build. Then the game undirectly dictates your subsequent "choices" by its design, which will simply turn most consequences into solid, impassable walls. It feels very weird, and gives it a very strong deterministic feel, if not fatalist.
Which ultimately, though, is satisfyingly consistent with the themes of the game. It is a very fatalist oeuvre, through and through. I don't know if that was intentional, but the result is there anyway.

The coolest part of the AoD system is making a character who can pass through everything. I think it's fair to classify that as not being particularly easy, regardless of Jason Liang's claims to the contrary.

Yeah, im obviously generalizing, you still have some choices to make here and there. Like betraying someone or how you resolve some quests. But the general strategy remains the same.

In Bg you don't even even have distinct quest resolutions?
The general strategy remains the same even more than in AoD imo, AoD each encounter feels handcrafted compared to IE games.

I just find your angle of criticism and comparison very weird I guess.

 

[Saduj]

Goalpost Moving: The Thread

 

[Jason Liang]

I uploaded the savegames to a second website since it seems the original doesn't load for people.

https://file.io/YLehQB

 

[Absinthe]

Right now I'm having a very hard time taking your claims (which I don't take personally, mind you) at face value. Not because I'm dead certain that our design is rock solid (it most certainly isn't) but because I spent the last 5 years on our Steam forum trying to convince people who struggle that the game is actually not that hard. So on one hand I have thousands of players and their Steam's achievements, on the other hand I have you claiming that you can breeze through the game with 4/4. So show me. I'd love to see the outpost fight with 4/4 and attack spamming.

Well, I just made a 10-8-10-4-4-4 pure sword+block IG and as a self-imposed challenge I decided to use zero consumables, zero crafting, zero crit, and zero aimed strikes. I only used shield bash, whirlwind, and fast/normal/power attacks, and I obliterated everything in my path. I did have 8 lore for power armor. Widowmaker and Agathoth (full strength) were the hardest fights. I didn't do all the sidequests I could with my build and I didn't use the healing machine I had access to. I did use the regen potion from the maadoran healer though. Even with the exact same build, I could've easily done better just with purchased bombs and nets. Or if I'd healed the constitution stat damage with one of those improved balms (I did use healing balms but I didn't have an improved version on me) before facing Agathoth. And honestly going block build without crafting is just gimping yourself, although even then block is still much better than dodge thanks to the much higher base defense. Dodge on the other hand is just unreliable. If I were to add crafting and alchemy I would've had an even easier time walking and plowing through everything.

I agree with the basic criticism that the more you invest into combat, the less you need to think about how you handle it.

 

[mushaden]

Anyone who hasn't played the imperial guard ambush when you're an assassin traveling from Ganezzar back to Maadoran should check that out.

I agree with the basic criticism that the more you invest into combat, the less you need to think about how you handle it.

I actually don't mind this, because if it wasn't this way wouldn't playing a hybrid be nearly impossible? So, yeah, I get where Jason is coming from when he slates "axe bros," but I think the fun of the game comes from other builds. Using the power armor requires some knowledge of the game, also, imo. I don't think most players would get it in their first playthrough

 

[Absinthe]

Honestly I think axes are a weak weapon. Their special effect is a "win more" ability if you ask me. Any time you crit you're already obliterating your opponent. The bonus damage is just a cherry on top you get whenever you were already going to win the fight. Daggers are a much better pick if you want to go crit heavy since they actually improve your crit rate.

 

[Trash Player]

Jason's success cannot be exactly replicated this patch, with xbow passive nerf and bomb rework. Still, kiting with poison and AI behaviour are still very exploitable. DR retro changes are huge buff to PC, especially the fast ones, waiting and belt break the game.
Vault Dweller : Depth of system, difficulty, and learning curve overlap but each can be examined on its own to some extent. In AoD's case, a good part of complaints come from the learning curve. The manual isn't any more helpful than the tooltip, which by itself isn't any help to the layman. New players can know nothing on their own mistakes because there isn't any meaningful feedback. Teron is a terrible starter town for a fighter: loot and xp reward from easy fights are stingy, the best way to get better is theivery. Maadoran is better in this regard with the arena and good buyable equipment. I personally appreciate Teron being a merciless take on a sleepy, idyllic hometown however.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

1. Install Age of Decadence.
2. Choose a class.
3. Die. Die. Die.
4. Google ways to beat Age of Decadence.
5. Find out combat-max is the way to beat Age of Decadence.
6. Find out other, extremely specific ways of beating Age of Decadence.
7. Suddenly realize the developers of Age of Decadence are control-freak assholes that have been trolling you for years in hopes that you will buy the game then kys....*holy light*...

"What's that? I've been duped? I've been reloading my saves for how many years now just so that I could tell the Codex I'm elite? But....wait...poison....dick-knife to the spleen....midget lobotomied while I slept.

Why yes....yes I'd love to choose my own adventure yet again.

Ok let me start over....game so gud....I'm sure my asshole is a little more open this time."

 

[Black Angel]

Well, I just made a 10-8-10-4-4-4 pure sword+block IG and as a self-imposed challenge I decided to use zero consumables, zero crafting, zero crit, and zero aimed strikes. I only used shield bash, whirlwind, and fast/normal/power attacks, and I obliterated everything in my path. I did have 8 lore for power armor. Widowmaker and Agathoth (full strength) were the hardest fights. I didn't do all the sidequests I could with my build and I didn't use the healing machine I had access to. I did use the regen potion from the maadoran healer though. Even with the exact same build, I could've easily done better just with purchased bombs and nets. Or if I'd healed the constitution stat damage with one of those improved balms (I did use healing balms but I didn't have an improved version on me) before facing Agathoth. And honestly going block build without crafting is just gimping yourself, although even then block is still much better than dodge thanks to the much higher base defense. Dodge on the other hand is just unreliable. If I were to add crafting and alchemy I would've had an even easier time walking and plowing through everything.

I agree with the basic criticism that the more you invest into combat, the less you need to think about how you handle it.

I can't remember the details of it, but the general outlines are that this kind of build is literally my first build ever in AoD, because I actually take the tutorial's advice of playing a full combat character for first playthrough to heart. And despite of only starting to play the game back in January 2017 (so the game is already patched and tweaked many times) and having beaten Dungeon Rats once or twice (means I'm already familiar with the whole system), I personally don't see anything wrong with playing like that. I started merc -> IG, went full 10/10 in Sword and Dodge, increasing CS when I have some spare SPs; I didn't self-impose challenges on me, but I missed ALOT of sidequests, and power armor and the healing machine completely, although I'm not sure if I crafted anything (probably yes). I'm not sure if I take on the extra arena fight, but I beaten Agathoth with no nets (!) or bolas (!) although I do use bomb(s?) to soften him up and then just spam fully upgraded khopesh and stacked bleeding on him to victory.

Now, I'm gonna say I'm not exactly in full agreement or disagreement with the criticism regarding combat that's being discussed here. Yes, you think much less about how you handle combat if you fully focused on making a combat character, that much is obvious. But at the end of the day, you still use different moveset, instead of just click-click-click to win, like Jason Liang said (and this is something I assumed based on VD's asking him to make a video where he make a 4/4 character and attack spamming the Outpost fight to win). Even you admitted it yourself, right? You use shield bash, whirlwind, fast/normal/power attacks, utilizing those, managing AP, positioning, and timing is vital to reach victory and still counts as tactics and not just attack spamming. Although, perhaps your definition of attack spamming is different than mine or Jason Liang's, but if you ask me, I think attack spamming is just click-click-click to win, instead of watching what kind of attacks you're using nor paying attention to AP management.

Hence, and this is assuming you know about Jason Liang's posting all those crazy 1 point in Bow challenge where he wipe the shit out of the game, then relate it to his criticism about how AoD's combat is broken (or something like that) just because you can spam bolas, it really doesn't make any sense. Now, let's try to apply the criticisms and accept that the game is indeed too easy. What can be improved, then? Tweaking and adjusting all the stats and numbers involved? Changing the combat encounters like adjusting the amount of enemies and/or their equipment? Remove bolas completely (or at least tweak the amount available in a single playthrough)?

1. Install Age of Decadence.
2. Choose a class.
3. Die. Die. Die.
4. Google ways to beat Age of Decadence.
5. Find out combat-max is the way to beat Age of Decadence.
6. Find out other, extremely specific ways of beating Age of Decadence.
7. Suddenly realize the developers of Age of Decadence are control-freak assholes that have been trolling you for years in hopes that you will buy the game then kys....*holy light*...

"What's that? I've been duped? I've been reloading my saves for how many years now just so that I could tell the Codex I'm elite? But....wait...poison....dick-knife to the spleen....midget lobotomied while I slept.

Why yes....yes I'd love to choose my own adventure yet again.

Ok let me start over....game so gud....I'm sure my asshole is a little more open this time."

 

[Lhynn]

In Bg I pick a class at start and decide on party ahead of time, how is it different?

You get to pick 5 more companions and everything that comes with that.

In IE you don't even have relevant character advancement choices after pick a class until you get to HLAs, maybe thief skill point distribution in early Bg1

Dual classing for humans, tho you dont really need relevant character advancement choices to have fun. Having to validate your choice all the time gets stale, and its what AoD does.

In Bg you don't even even have distinct quest resolutions?

You have a few, but they are mostly irrelevant, its a bigger world and you can preocure shit from somewhere else.
The CYOA nature of AoD makes this impossible.

The general strategy remains the same even more than in AoD imo

Nope, every encounter is wildly different, you dont tackle beholders in the same way you fight a pack of bandits, or a wyvern, or a dragon, or a basilisk. And this doesnt have much to do with strategy as much as it has to do with tactics.

AoD each encounter feels handcrafted compared to IE games.

Sure, every encounter is handcrafted in Uncharted. I feel you want to make a point here, but its falling flat.