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So What Happened To All Our Favourite Writers?.

Chippy

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
6,066
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm not gonna go through the list, because I might just miss someone. But all the guys from the Blackisle & Bioware days...where are they now?.

I'm not gonna judge anyone for keeping their job, and just going with the flow. You've gotta be an asshole to say that they should all stand up to current culture rules and put their job at risk, and if guys like David Gaider went down the SJW route (don't know myself) that's up to him.

But it occured to me that none of them are currently writing or creatively involved in any further projects?. Except maybe the guys at Obshittian...
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
I've never been able to find any way to contact the writer of Arcanum. I've even made a thread here hoping someone else could help to no avail.
There were even people who thought his name was a pseudonym(it's not)
 

Zer0wing

Cipher
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
2,607
They just want out and like all old men, want paid retirement. It's on us now to carry that torch.
 

bandersnatch

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
118
They have all been replaced with better, cheaper, and more woke versions of 25 year olds fresh out of school eagerly waiting to educate you on the religions taught by their commie professors. Hold on to your seats, major decline ahead.
 

Alienman

Retro-Fascist
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
17,185
Location
Mars
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
CarefulAngelicAlbatross-small.gif


"I will not write for Bethesdas Fallout" *gulp*
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
When we were young the future was so bright
The RPG genre was so alive
And every graduate from Silicon Valley
Was gonna make it big and not be beat
Now the business is all cracked and torn
The writers are alive but their minds are worn
How can the gaming industry
Swallow so many lives?

Dices thrown, no d20
Giving money to Beamdog remasteries
Still it's hard, hard to see
Fragile lives, shattered dreams

Sawyer had a chance no he really did
Until he went crazy and just made shit
Gonzalez gave it all up for some mid-level job
Now he just writes for games like Horizon: Zero Dawn
Avellone committed career suicide
Gaider went SJW and died
What the hell is going on?
Cruelest dream reality

Dices thrown, no D20
Playing shit, like No Truce With The Furies
And now it's gone, hard to believe
We never knew, what is an RPG
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,535
Location
Grand Chien
1) Videogames are collaborative projects just like movies, one person alone does not make a good game, it's a group effort

2) They got old

3) They were never that good in the first place

Take your pick
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
1) Videogames are collaborative projects just like movies, one person alone does not make a good game, it's a group effort
Arcanum only has one credited writer(more specifically credited as "Writing / Dialogue / Story".)
I don't know enough about the development to say whether he did entirely all the writing, but I think it's fair to say he probably did the majority of it. I believe it was Tim Cain(or was it Boyarsky?) that specifically sought him out because they were so impressed with his D&D modules he wrote.
 

copebot

Learned
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
387
I think if you are a writer, you will be best off focusing on writing and licensing your successful work for use in video games if what you care about is money, creative control, and prestige. If you are just work for hire, the games industry is not like the screenwriter racket -- writers for TV and movies are highly paid, whereas games writers are paid poorly. The best you could hope for would be to figure out some way to get yourself a stock options from the big corporations like EA or Activision as part of your pay.

This is probably one of the reasons why so many of the 'big name' writers have faded from the scene over time. Few games companies have been able to generate their own 'milkable' creative IP. Take something like Planescape for example. It was a licensed IP, with the dialog worked on by work-for-hire writers who don't hold the copyrights. From the writer's perspective, being someone like George R.R. Martin is great: not only do you get royalties from book sales, but incredibly lucrative licensing contracts from multimedia companies. It's pretty clear also that many technical companies are so focused on the technical aspect of entertainment that they are not that good at growing the value of an IP. The typical result of a technical company like a game studio starting their own art-driven IP is neglect and mediocrity -- see something like Anthem as an example.

Being a great creative in a work-for-hire situation is actually awful and a bad long term career move. Think about the guys who came up with Elder Scrolls. Sure, they probably got shares in Bethesda and became fairly wealthy as a result. But if they had owned the copyrights related to Tamriel, they would be gazillionaires instead of just millionaires. It's the ideal situation for the corporation (they own ALL the rights and don't have to pay licensing fees to do absolutely anything), but very bad for the individual creative. Some of the big writers / artists like Chris Metzen got rich through founding stock and other compensation. But I think anyone trying to be a creative in video games should be a writer first rather than seeking to be a dialogue-writing wretch. This is a time in which, due to politics and other issues, US corporations have a lot of issues creating compelling art. Most of Game of Thrones sucks past the first few books, honestly, but there's a reason that HBO had to pay GRRM tons of money to license the books -- they could not come up with anything better internally.

The reason corporate-owned IPs tend to decay in creative quality is related to these incentives. Dragon Age 1 had some good creative ideas, judging it as fantasy schlock entertainment. EABioware owns the IP -- not any star writer who feels real ownership over the IP because he actually owns the IP. The sequels are creatively driven by corporate committees, which tend to be notoriously bad at producing good art. The writer in such a creative process is just a chump who is paid less than the technical talent and less than the business executives and has to contort the creative to match the technical and marketing requirements set by the product rather than the other way around. Compare this to a writer who is the licensor, who is in a position of power and may be paid more than most of the people involved in implementing the creative vision. Corporations hate this because they have to pay out the nose for it and have to make all kinds of accommodation for the auteur, who has legal leverage over the entire process. Corporations prefer the 'boy band' model in which they own the rights to everything and all the creatives are just for-hire.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,519
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
I think if you are a writer, you will be best off focusing on writing and licensing your successful work for use in video games if what you care about is money, creative control, and prestige. If you are just work for hire, the games industry is not like the screenwriter racket -- writers for TV and movies are highly paid, whereas games writers are paid poorly. The best you could hope for would be to figure out some way to get yourself a stock options from the big corporations like EA or Activision as part of your pay.

This is probably one of the reasons why so many of the 'big name' writers have faded from the scene over time. Few games companies have been able to generate their own 'milkable' creative IP. Take something like Planescape for example. It was a licensed IP, with the dialog worked on by work-for-hire writers who don't hold the copyrights. From the writer's perspective, being someone like George R.R. Martin is great: not only do you get royalties from book sales, but incredibly lucrative licensing contracts from multimedia companies. It's pretty clear also that many technical companies are so focused on the technical aspect of entertainment that they are not that good at growing the value of an IP. The typical result of a technical company like a game studio starting their own art-driven IP is neglect and mediocrity -- see something like Anthem as an example.

Being a great creative in a work-for-hire situation is actually awful and a bad long term career move. Think about the guys who came up with Elder Scrolls. Sure, they probably got shares in Bethesda and became fairly wealthy as a result. But if they had owned the copyrights related to Tamriel, they would be gazillionaires instead of just millionaires. It's the ideal situation for the corporation (they own ALL the rights and don't have to pay licensing fees to do absolutely anything), but very bad for the individual creative. Some of the big writers / artists like Chris Metzen got rich through founding stock and other compensation. But I think anyone trying to be a creative in video games should be a writer first rather than seeking to be a dialogue-writing wretch. This is a time in which, due to politics and other issues, US corporations have a lot of issues creating compelling art. Most of Game of Thrones sucks past the first few books, honestly, but there's a reason that HBO had to pay GRRM tons of money to license the books -- they could not come up with anything better internally.

The reason corporate-owned IPs tend to decay in creative quality is related to these incentives. Dragon Age 1 had some good creative ideas, judging it as fantasy schlock entertainment. EABioware owns the IP -- not any star writer who feels real ownership over the IP because he actually owns the IP. The sequels are creatively driven by corporate committees, which tend to be notoriously bad at producing good art. The writer in such a creative process is just a chump who is paid less than the technical talent and less than the business executives and has to contort the creative to match the technical and marketing requirements set by the product rather than the other way around. Compare this to a writer who is the licensor, who is in a position of power and may be paid more than most of the people involved in implementing the creative vision. Corporations hate this because they have to pay out the nose for it and have to make all kinds of accommodation for the auteur, who has legal leverage over the entire process. Corporations prefer the 'boy band' model in which they own the rights to everything and all the creatives are just for-hire.

Which just goes to show you that capitalism and free markets aren't necessarily the best way of doing everything. Middle-sized dry goods, furniture, machines, food, etc., etc., sure, but creative stuff, public goods, etc.? Sometimes too, still - but often not. What's are the alternatives? I don't know, but it would be good to see creative minds opening up possibility space on the issue.
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
6,093
Games industry doesn't really reward good writing. In fact, pretty much no industry does, not even fucking publishing houses.
 

copebot

Learned
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
387
Which just goes to show you that capitalism and free markets aren't necessarily the best way of doing everything. Middle-sized dry goods, furniture, machines, food, etc., etc., sure, but creative stuff, public goods, etc.? Sometimes too, still - but often not. What's are the alternatives? I don't know, but it would be good to see creative minds opening up possibility space on the issue.

Copyright is a government granted and enforced monopoly on abstract expression. It operates through some market mechanisms. The USSR and other Communist states also had copyright laws and managed royalty rates etc. until the later years. It is hard to say that copyright is a 'free' market because it is a market in state-granted rights that are entirely enumerated by law. Some have tried to make natural rights arguments about copyright that are analogous to the natural rights arguments about real property, but those arguments are always a bit of a stretch. A pound of beef exists under any conceivable government or no government at all. You can possess the beef without formal title to it. On the other hand, copyright only exists as a privilege granted by the state. You can 'possess' an idea in your head, but you must use the state to enforce your copyright on the expression of that idea.

A lot of the increasing wealth of the big entertainment corporations has to do with changes to copyright law and to judicial interpretations. Instead of having IPs quickly retired because of short expiration dates, copyright is now nearly perpetual. Statutory damages for infringement are quite high, giving plaintiffs tons of leverage in US courts. Copyright is also being interpreted in more expansive ways so that it relates to characters, concepts, 'worlds,' and so on rather than in the formerly much more narrow interpretation of copyright as related to the specific work itself. So as it stands, when you register your copyrights, you get a big and powerful enforcement cudgel that you can use at your discretion to enlist the state to extract money for you.

Hence, why creators should try to own their copyrights, because having a huge gun on your side is awesome for your negotiating position when it comes time to get paid. It is either you get to use the gun, or you let your boss use the gun on you. Normal educated people will often say that US copyright law has gotten out of control, but there is no lobby for well-intentioned reformists, whereas there is a ravenous, powerful, and highly interested lobby for the rights owner side. Again, that is why creators who want to be in games should avoid being work-for-hire... you get to ride on the exorbitant privileges the law provides instead of being on the wrong side of the deal. For independent creators, though, things can be tough to compete for attention in a culture that is so dominated by multibillion dollar empires of perpetual copyright.
 

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
3,686
Location
Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
Good writing doesn't come from a class or from copying other authors. It comes from life, from people, from understanding humanity.

It's not really fair but if you compare the life of Hemmingway to any modern author, let alone any game writer, the difference is quite stark. Modern writers have no life.

I forget who it was but a famous author was invited to a prestigious MFA class. He walked up and told everyone to quit the class and go do something else with their lives. You won't learn to write from other failures. Likewise, all the best game designers didn't study game design, they studied history, philosophy, and mythology. Nowadays even attempting to understand human nature is a thought crime, so everything has become unreadable alien drivel.

When your writing team consists of fat blue-haired problem-glasses slash fiction writers from tumblr, you're gonna have a bad time.
 

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