Editorial Some thoughts on the Fallout 3 article

[robur]

FTR: I´m pretty sure this quest will be in the final game, along with mini-nuclear explosions and the nuclear catapult. "Fallout 3: A POST NUCLEAR NUCLEAR Action-RPG".

Fixed.

 

[robur]

Welcome to the Codex robur. (not all is as it first seems here)

It seems that it's a bunch of very entrenched RPG lovers that love very specific RPGs and moan, bitch and shout about the absence of more RPGs in that fashion. Or did I get a wrong impression?

Thanks for the links, interesting stuff.

To end on a very general note: I don't see many people of my age writing for magazines any more these days. Of the team of people that worked together at PC Player for seven years, I think I'm the only one still writing. Some are working for publishers, some are in publishing management positions. That might be indicative of the readership of magazines. People are always saying "wait for this generation to grow up, be in power, issue laws etc.". That could have happened by now - people playing with their VCS in the 70s and 80s are in their 40s now. But around age 30, there's a big drop-off in gaming. Sure, some stick to it like you, I and many others here, but the majority gets occupied with family, job, house and whatnot. A friend of mine with whom I played many Scott Adams and Lucasfilm Games adventures, solving puzzles over the phone while we were sitting in front of our C64s, hasn't played any computer game in over a decade.

So magazines recruit new people from younger gamers who haven't seen all the old school stuff. And they for the most part won't because they don't have the hardware to run them any more. And they look less attractive, less mass market. So they hail better looking games that give them a quick fix, games that don't ask for too much investment. The sales numbers of those games seem to support that. If you have games like the System Shock, Thief and Deus Ex series - well, great ones, but in the end they were marketed as first person shooters, not as RPGs any more, because that's what people seem to like.

So what to do? Retreat to the old glory days, replay the classics over and over? A valid choice. Playing new games and bitching about the lack of depth? Sure, I do that too. But how often can one play through one singleplayer game? You could switch to an MMO, been there, done that and still do. Of course they don't give you that story and depth, they can't cause the game world stays mostly the same so other players will get the same experience. So in the end, there could be another solution: Create your own RPGs, just like the text adventure community is still creating new interactive fiction. Sure, you wouldn't sport the flashiest graphics and you wouldn't sell bucket loads. You would also need more than just one team or else you end up playing your own game - not the most fun when you know all about the story etc. But such is the fate of an evolving medium like computer games and RPGs as a genre. You can't freeze the genre in time. As much as I would want to sometimes, too.

 

[Amasius]

So magazines recruit new people from younger gamers who haven't seen all the old school stuff. And they for the most part won't because they don't have the hardware to run them any more.

In times of DOSBox and Emulators hardly an excuse. Damn, these youngsters should do some homework.

So in the end, there could be another solution: Create your own RPGs

And thats exactly what some old school RPG fans are doing. There is an arising indie RPG scene with some very promising projects. Here is an Codex-interview with some indie-devs. And you may take a look down to the Age of Decadence section of this very forum.

 

[robur]

In times of DOSBox and Emulators hardly an excuse. Damn, these youngsters should do some homework.

I know. Gaming magazines are pretty much the only ones I can think of where age isn't valued as much and the editorial team is rejuvenated on a regular basis. Look at movie or book magazines. Theater critics. The more they have seen, the better. You could argue that this might be because there aren't as many older game mag readers and the magazine publishers fear that older writers don't have the skills to bond with the younger readers. The buddy factor.

Working for a magazine full time is rough, though. You rarely get to play through all of the games you're writing about each month. Which is why I like my current job as a freelancer - I write about upcoming games but at the same time I can play everything I want at home. Revisit and finish some classics. Play WoW. Play console stuff. Play more WoW. Play some oldies on DS. At my current pace, I should be good for a few more years with my games collection. So I'm not as rabid as someone who might have had the time to play through all of his/her RPGs and now is looking for more.

And thats exactly what some old school RPG fans are doing. There is an arising indie RPG scene with some very promising projects. Here is an Codex-interview with some indie-devs. And you may take a look down to the Age of Decadence section of this very forum.

Cool stuff. Might actully be something to cover in a magazine.

 

[Elhoim]

FTR: I´m pretty sure this quest will be in the final game, along with mini-nuclear explosions and the nuclear catapult. "Fallout 3: A POST NUCLEAR NUCLEAR Action-RPG".

Fixed.

Yeah, that´s better

 

[DemonKing]

It seems to me that Bethesda can't lose with this one.

The Oblivion kiddies will buy it that they can experience The Elder Scrolls with Guns.

The FO Fanboys will buy it so they can bitch and moan.

End result more $$$$ for Bethesda.

 

[Kotario]

NMA has released a few of the questions from a subscriber-only Q&A event that Game Informer held about Fallout 3 with the fellow they sent to the event. Of particular interest is what he had to say about dialogue.

Q: Is this another Oblivion but with a Fallout theme?
A: In short: no. Sure, Fallout 3 plays primarily from a first-person perspective like Oblivion, and conversations with NPCs use a similar style of dialogue tree, but combat, questing, character creation and most importantly the tone and style of the gameplay shares more in common with Fallout 1 and 2 than Oblivion.

 

[Black]

It seems to me that Bethesda can't lose with this one.

The Oblivion kiddies will buy it that they can experience The Elder Scrolls with Guns.

The FO Fanboys will buy it so they can bitch and moan.

End result more $$$$ for Bethesda.

Actually this might turn in other way.
Fo fanboys won't necessary buy the game- they have torrents so they can play and whine.

Oblivion kiddies? Some of them will surely buy 'FO'3 but let's face it- it's just another shooter... Oh right, you can stop time in ths one and make aimed shots.
Why buy 'FO'3 if there is... uh, I dunno, I'm not much into shooters but... Halo, Gears of War, BioShock?

 

[Rohit_N]

Why buy 'FO'3 if there is... uh, I dunno, I'm not much into shooters but... Halo, Gears of War, BioShock?

Because they'll find it open-ended and therefore an accessible RPG?

 

[Black]

Why buy 'FO'3 if there is... uh, I dunno, I'm not much into shooters but... Halo, Gears of War, BioShock?

Because they'll find it open-ended and therefore an accessible RPG?

Akshun-rpg! Don't forget!
Now this maybe just my naive wish so beth would die, but... seriously- why FO3? Some poll indicated that about 40% of gamers actually doesn't have any idea what's Fallout...

 

[robur]

Why buy 'FO'3 if there is... uh, I dunno, I'm not much into shooters but... Halo, Gears of War, BioShock?

Because they'll find it open-ended and therefore an accessible RPG?

Akshun-rpg! Don't forget!
Now this maybe just my naive wish so beth would die, but... seriously- why FO3? Some poll indicated that about 40% of gamers actually doesn't have any idea what's Fallout...

Let's add to the post apocalyptic question mongering: Do gamers have an idea what Hellgate: London is? Even darker, bleaker setting, motivation to play is loot and more loot, not so much a deep story. Not saying that it won't have potential, just wondering whether the post apocalyptic settings in general are as popular as high fantasy.

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

Why buy 'FO'3 if there is... uh, I dunno, I'm not much into shooters but... Halo, Gears of War, BioShock?

Because they'll find it open-ended and therefore an accessible RPG?

Akshun-rpg! Don't forget!
Now this maybe just my naive wish so beth would die, but... seriously- why FO3? Some poll indicated that about 40% of gamers actually doesn't have any idea what's Fallout...

Let's add to the post apocalyptic question mongering: Do gamers have an idea what Hellgate: London is? Even darker, bleaker setting, motivation to play is loot and more loot, not so much a deep story. Not saying that it won't have potential, just wondering whether the post apocalyptic settings in general are as popular as high fantasy.

Sure, but you don't need to buy a "post-apoc" license (or worse still, the entire IP), thus precluding the people who actually created the originals from making an actual sequel.

 

[Hazelnut]

Welcome to the Codex robur. (not all is as it first seems here)

It seems that it's a bunch of very entrenched RPG lovers that love very specific RPGs and moan, bitch and shout about the absence of more RPGs in that fashion. Or did I get a wrong impression?

Well, much closer than many, but still assuming more homogeny than really exists here I think. Personally I love many types of games, not just RPGs, and what I really like in games (of all genres) is good, deep and thoughtful design. I'm finding new games that I enjoy hard to find these days. Currently playing Daggerfall to see if I can finish the game this time. I simply love the intro of the manual. :D

Thanks for the links, interesting stuff.

No problem, hope you stick around.

To end on a very general note: I don't see many people of my age writing for magazines any more these days.

I used to be a subscriber for many years to PC Gamer UK. Loved that mag, but it went downhill over the space of a few years and coincidentally the staff had generally gotten younger. I spent months trying to figure out if it was me and my age or the mag that had changed... their Oblivion 'review' answered that one for me. Thus ended a subscription that had lasted nearly a decade.

I'm gonna check our EDGE since it's been commended by you as well as a game developer I know. I've never checked out any non-PC exclusive game mags.

 

[Section8]

I used to be a subscriber for many years to PC Gamer UK. Loved that mag, but it went downhill over the space of a few years and coincidentally the staff had generally gotten younger. I spent months trying to figure out if it was me and my age or the mag that had changed... their Oblivion 'review' answered that one for me. Thus ended a subscription that had lasted nearly a decade.

That sounds like me and PC Powerplay, which was once a great Aussie mag. Sure, I'd die a little inside when Deus Ex took out "Best. Game. Ever." year after year, but it was the game that toppled it that ended my subscription.

In an issue that would have gone to the presses a week or so prior to Neverwinter Nights' release, it was named Best Game Ever and awarded some ridiculous score like 99%. Funnily enough, the content of the article contained the same blatant lies that most other NWN reviews spouted. Fantastic storyline, better than anything that has ever come before, engaging tactical combat, well realised NPC companions, etc.

I called bullshit, and checked the previous few editions. Sure enough, in the space of six months, PC Powerplay had featured 3 full games, for FREE on the coverdisc(s). Funnily enough, all three were courtesy of Infogrames, publisher of NWN.

Oh noes, conspirarcy!

 

[psycojester]

PC Powerplay

They never did get their head around spelling and grammar.

 

[Ander Vinz]

In times of DOSBox and Emulators hardly an excuse. Damn, these youngsters should do some homework.

I do. I played Fallout, PST, Day of the tentacle and Full Trottle [last two on my pda] and going on. Oh, wait, you weren't talking about me, right?

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

I played Fallout, PST, Day of the tentacle and Full Trottle

Old fart.

 

[Ander Vinz]

I played Fallout, PST, Day of the tentacle and Full Trottle

Old fart.

 

[Fez]

stuff

Yup, you're not far off with that.

A lot of the print magazines have always been garbage and the general trend has only got worse with time. They were more important to me before access to the internet and forums to exchange opinions was so widespread and common. Now the only time print magazines have any fresh news is when they are given deliberately held back exclusives by publishers, like Beth's "you must pay for our PR" move. I used to subscribe to a number of game or PC related magazines, but now there is no point as their opinions are often untrustworthy and their news is old or irrelevant. The more I hear from the various journos and hacks about what goes on in the background, the more pathetic it seems. I wouldn't mind paying if it was any more trustworthy, but it isn't and I can get bullshit for free on the net, thanks.

The sad part is that there are a few good ones, but they are outweighed by the clueless and crippled by the idiot publishers and staff.

 

[robur]

Sure, but you don't need to buy a "post-apoc" license (or worse still, the entire IP), thus precluding the people who actually created the originals from making an actual sequel.

As I understand it, Interplay is but a lifeless shell somewhere in a file folder at the moment with horrible debts and the need to sell everything to the highest bidder to get out of that debt. Capitalism basically. Just look at the ridiculous Fallout MMO attempt <shudder>. Did Troika or Obsidian actually bid for the Fallout rights against Bethesda back in 2004?

 

[Needles]

Did Troika or Obsidian actually bid for the Fallout rights against Bethesda back in 2004?

http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=170807#170807

We never, ever bid on Fallout. One major publisher mentioned Interplay was shopping it around and would be interested in us developing it for them, but theydropped it as too expensive when they found out the asking price (not ours, Interplay's). We never had our own money, and were just beginning to toy with the idea of independent funding near the end of our life as a business - which was after Beth had already gotten Fallout.

I did approach Bethesda about us working with them on Fallout, but they were uninterested. Instead of flaiming them for this however, think about it from their point of view: who among us would want to pay a huge amount of money for a license and then turn it over to someone else? I'm assuming they paid the $$ because they wanted to make a Fallout game, end of story.

Don't know about Obsidian though..

 

[Grandpa Gamer]

I'm gonna check our EDGE since it's been commended by you as well as a game developer I know. I've never checked out any non-PC exclusive game mags.

I agree that Edge is a cut above other games magazines. One reason might be that it's geared towards game developers (or at least wannabe developers) as much as towards game players. Also, it often features cover design to die for.

 

[robur]

I agree that Edge is a cut above other games magazines. One reason might be that it's geared towards game developers (or at least wannabe developers) as much as towards game players. Also, it often features cover design to die for.

Amen to that - I love the fact that they don't clutter their cover with 1023 different game titles and images. If you're lucky (and they found that extra cash), they even do stuff like gold, silver or embossed printing or even a hologram.

 

[Fez]

Do you cut out and frame the covers to put on your walls?

 

[robur]

Do you cut out and frame the covers to put on your walls?

Nah. But everybody working in magazines is looking with envy to those guys when they pull their fancy stunts off. Like the current issue:

I remember when we wanted no games, no images, just a big fat "5" printed on the cover of the five year anniversary issue of PC Player - in gold for our premium version with dvd, in silver for our regular mag. Didn't happen, wouldn't sell, said the suits.

Oh, and if you want to subscribe to EDGE from the US, don't order it in England - you end up paying $100 per year. Rather go to
https://www.imsnews.com/ims_subscribe.php?pubid=349
and pay $135 for TWO years. And get a cool t-shirt to boot