Development Info South Park: The Stick of Truth delayed

[Mrowak]

That's why I've been whining about a plan all along. Budget, FFS. I know that to you pouring dollars from one project to another might seem like a smart thing to do, but if it happens as a spurr of the moment decision it invariably means the project is in serious danger - there was some serious mismanagement of resources and that the developer cannot even decide on the scope of the project.

How long do you "plan" to repeat this point? I think everyone on this site knows by now that you're really really like to see a detailed plan from Obsidian for Project Eternity, and you should know that you won't get to see any. Whether Obsidian has a plan or not they have no reason to share it with the public.

I was talking about the general mismanagement here, and the dangers Obisidian will face. I "plan" on raising it each time the difficulties connected with development are discussed because my concerns are relevant to it - which is in this thread. What puzzles me is your position, of not arguing against the content of my musing but against me even arguing the case. I am sorry to say, but it sounds to me like "Nanananana!!! I don't want to hear you, nananana!". It's hardly meaningful criticism, methinks.

 

[Spectacle]

I'm not really arguing against you, I think you have a reasonable point, even if I'm not particularly concerned about it myself. I'm just tired of seeing more or less the exact same post over and over and over again. Chill out man, it's out of our control now either way.

 

[Jasede]

Who is even looking forward to this? It's like a decade too late. May as well make a Simpsons RPG.

I am in a "I hope it sells well so Obsidian can make more nice storyfag games like Torment, KOTOR 2 and MotB" kind of way.
Makes sense to me.

 

[Metro]

You mean like PE?

 

[Harold]

If it doesn't get cancelled it will sell very well because Viacom will promote the shit out of it; and south park fans/libruls don't care what profeshunul game journalists have to say about it and will buy it anyway.

 

[l3loodAngel]

What happens if during development, they see that they have to throw a few hundred thousand into the project. They will use their own money, not just the one from the kickstarter.

That's what I thought. They would get the money from KS and then add their money since it's the only opportunity for them to avoid bankruptcy. However, no one except Feargus knows how much they have.

 

[tuluse]

I think we can all agree that if P:E is the only game Obsidian is working on, and they have no sources of revenue except their kickstarter bank account, both the project and company are doomed.

However, I think that is an extremely unlikely scenario and more likely Obsidian works on 1 or 2 other projects at the same time which constitute the majority of their company.

 

[l3loodAngel]

DarkUnderlord
Why are you taking the office rent, electricity and water bills into account? Those are fixed cost for the company, since they have their office with infrastructure. They have people working in there regardless of PE. I think this cost is covered by the company's other revenues, not from PE's kickstarter. It's not like they have to go and rend another office for those 20-40 people.

Typical error, those fixed costs should be payed every month, the usual practice is splitting them among the various activities the firm run, because, you know, for a business to be profitable there is the need to cover the fixed costs, hiring costs and turn a profit too, ignoring fixed costs is what incompetents or fraudsters do.

A brofist isn't enough for this. I only did one accounting unit at uni, many decades ago, but I still get a small glow of anal-pretentious joy when people get their basic business accounting correct.

J_C is right. 20 people won't consume much water, electricity or floor space. The problems could start if and only IF Obsidian runs out of AAA projects. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to calculate them them for other than analytical purposes or to keep your books 100% correct.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

J_C is right. 20 people won't consume much water, electricity or floor space.

Project planning / meeting room (that's big enough for 20 people). Break area / Lunch room (big enough for 20 people). Kitchen. Toilets. Reception area. And I haven't even mentioned the 20 desktop PC setups yet or a quiet office for the Manager so he can have private meetings with staff about their performance or the part of the project they're working on.

Unless of course, you want them falling over the Stick of Truth development team and getting in each other's way.

What if Obsidian, as a company, has its own dedicated budget for overhead which is separate from all other budgets?

So what you're basically saying is that Obsidian should remove one of its costs of production from the game itself - and pay for it with this "other money" which they apparently have.

Hey, why don't they just pay for the P:E staff out of this mystical "free money" as well! That'll save 'em heaps!

You're a business genius. You should write a self-help book. It'd be called: "Going Broke - The quick way to lose cash hand over fist by hiding all your costs." You know, Enron did that...

 

[Harold]

Shouldn't hiver 2.0 randomly quadruple post instead of just randomly double posting?

 

[Infinitron]

So what you're basically saying is that Obsidian should remove one of its costs of production from the game itself - and pay for it with this "other money" which they apparently have.

Actually, yes. This is what they're planning to do for the documentary, by the way. It is not coming out of the Kickstarter funds.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

So what you're basically saying is that Obsidian should remove one of its costs of production from the game itself - and pay for it with this "other money" which they apparently have.

Actually, yes. This is what they're planning to do for the documentary, by the way. It is not coming out of the Kickstarter funds.

And that's why they're going to need a publisher to get more funding to finish P:E.

Here's hoping that doesn't involve an IP agreement.

 

[Infinitron]

And that's why they're going to need a publisher to get more funding to finish P:E.

Here's hoping that doesn't involve an IP agreement.

Like I said earlier, I find that assumption unsound.

On the other hand, we don't yet have any previous experience with Kickstarter projects on a similar scale, so who knows.

 

[Infinitron]

DarkUnderlord Another possibility is that Obsidian in fact already have a supplementary fund for this game. How do you think they funded the Kickstarter itself, after all? That shit was pretty intensive.

 

[IDtenT]

And that's why they're going to need a publisher to get more funding to finish P:E.

Here's hoping that doesn't involve an IP agreement.

Like I said earlier, I find that assumption unsound.

How is it unsound? The assumption that they won't run out of money is unsound.

 

[Infinitron]

How is it unsound? The assumption that they won't run out of money is unsound.

They asked for 1.1 million. They got 4.1 million. I have no reason to assume they were lying, since they were genuinely surprised to receive so much money.

Unsound.

 

[Harold]

Oh Harold, that is so falttering man...are you in love with me?
Dont mind the Hiver schtik, if that makes you happy I think any sort of fullfillment in your life is worth it baby, but all this stalking is kind of disturbing I mean brofisting ll my comments and posting in all my threads...my I didnt know I was so important to you?
Not to burst your bubble but I happen to be already have a crush on Volorun, so I uess your relationship with me shall remian stricktly platonic

I'm cool with that. I can see how you and volourn deserve each other and would be a perfect fit.
The pics in the inevitable gd drama thread 'Everything you thought you knew about volourn is hopw raewur ne' will have to suffice for me.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

they were genuinely surprised to receive so much money.

... and that's the problem. Not the surprise but what that means. They've now promised to deliver a much bigger game as a result, which will require more staff to deliver.

$1.1M just taking into consideration staff alone is anywhere from 7 people (industry average) to 14 people (paying slave wages). 7 people. Think about that for a minute. Office space, planning and management vs now having x4 the budget. Which means more people, more computers, more management. A much bigger project.

It's like planning to build a bridge over a local creek, and then deciding to build a much bigger bridge over a fully-fledged river. They're two entirely different projects. With the bigger one requiring much better management and much better planning. Their KickStarter showed how unprepared they were for that.

Sure, they might've had 7 spare desks that could come out of an existing budget because 7 people wouldn't have taken up much space. And they'd only need the small meeting room which might've been available.. Now they've got to find room for anywhere from 20 - 40 people to work on P:E.

Oh yeah, and this is coming right after they've already laid off staff due to lack of funds. Obsidian hit with layoffs; South Park team affected, future next-gen title canceled. Note that in the headline? "South Park team affected". They can't even afford their South Park team - and they had to cancel another project, and now you want to add P:E on top of it!

 

[Infinitron]

they were genuinely surprised to receive so much money.

... and that's the problem. Not the surprise but what that means. They've now promised to deliver a much bigger game as a result, which will require more staff to deliver.

$1.1M just taking into consideration staff alone is anywhere from 7 people (industry average) to 14 people (paying slave wages). 7 people. Think about that for a minute. Office space, planning and management vs now having x4 the budget. Which means more people, more computers, more management. A much bigger project.

It's like planning to build a bridge over a local creek, and then deciding to build a much bigger bridge over a fully-fledged river. They're two entirely different projects. With the bigger one requiring much better management and much better planning. Their KickStarter showed how unprepared they were for that.

Sure, they might've had 7 spare desks that could come out of an existing budget because 7 people wouldn't have taken up much space. And they'd only need the small meeting room which might've been available.. Now they've got to find room for anywhere from 20 - 40 people to work on P:E.

Oh yeah, and this is coming right after they've already laid off staff due to lack of funds. Obsidian hit with layoffs; South Park team affected, future next-gen title canceled. Note that in the headline? "South Park team affected". They can't even afford their South Park team - and they had to cancel another project, and now you want to add P:E on top of it!

From what I understand, the effect of the larger-than-expected budget has been to double the team, from 10~ to maybe 20-25.

Again, all I can say is that the fact that Obsidian even exists in this day and age, as an independent AAA RPG developer located in a high living cost area of the United States, shows that they are not completely clueless at management. I see no reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

"Another project canceled, this time for a future next-gen project and the layoffs impacted that team, plus the existing South Park team," a tipster wrote Joystiq. "Approximately 20-30 people from all disciplines, including one person who started yesterday, as well as one who started last week."

One day. They can't even plan far enough ahead to NOT hire a guy and then have to fire him a day after he starts. Date: March 14 2012

 

[Metro]

Good news for all of you connoisseurs who are upset over the delay of this truly classic cRPG; you have an alternative:

 

[Infinitron]

"Another project canceled, this time for a future next-gen project and the layoffs impacted that team, plus the existing South Park team," a tipster wrote Joystiq. "Approximately 20-30 people from all disciplines, including one person who started yesterday, as well as one who started last week."

One day. They can't even plan far enough ahead to NOT hire a guy and then have to fire him a day after he starts. Date: March 14 2012

Exception that proves the rule

 

[J_C]

What happens if during development, they see that they have to throw a few hundred thousand into the project. They will use their own money, not just the one from the kickstarter.

That's what I thought. They would get the money from KS and then add their money since it's the only opportunity for them to avoid bankruptcy. However, no one except Feargus knows how much they have.

Yes. Saying that they don't have some additional fund on their account would mean that they don't have a solution if a temporary fiancial problem comes in. I'm not saying that they have millions in their stash (although even that is possible), but they must have a few hundred thousand at least. A big company like Obsidian cannot rely on publisher funding alone 100%. They must have reserve to stay in business when one of their game is cancelled or their pitch is not working.

 

[Mrowak]

What happens if during development, they see that they have to throw a few hundred thousand into the project. They will use their own money, not just the one from the kickstarter.

That's what I thought. They would get the money from KS and then add their money since it's the only opportunity for them to avoid bankruptcy. However, no one except Feargus knows how much they have.

Yes. Saying that they don't have some additional fund on their account would mean that they don't have a solution if a temporary fiancial problem comes in.

Did they prove to you that they do have a backupt plan at any point? Did the projects they were involved in show that they had a backup plan?

I'm not saying that they have millions in their stash (although even that is possible), but they must have a few hundred thousand at least. A big company like Obsidian cannot rely on publisher funding alone 100%. They must have reserve to stay in business when one of their game is cancelled or their pitch is not working.

I am sorry J_C, but you are just naive. In the business-world if the developer fails to show the reserve to the investors (here the backers), it means that he does not have it - simple and clear. P:E has to be completed with just the resources it has acquired, plus the money from a publisher that will be merciful enough to support it (on today's market that would be only CD Projekt - they are equally naive and happy-go-lucky bunch that in contrast with Obsidian, can into planning; but they can help with distribution only in eastern Europe).

Unfortunately, to me the symptoms are clear - they just didn't think this through and they are going to pay for it.

 

[J_C]

In the business-world if the developer fails to show the reserve to the investors (here the backers), it means that he does not have it

Here we go again. Which company in their right mind would make this information public? None. I may have blind faith in them, but you on the other hand are obsessed with the can't see it = doesn't exist assumption.
Yes, the investors can look into the book of a company. But the backers are not investors in a strict business sense. We are donators. Which is not the same. There is no law or contract which forces Obsidian to share this information with us. They would be stupid to leak these informations (the company's reserve) to the public and to the competitors if they are not have to.

If you want to see their books, invest big money into the company, become an owner/shareholder in an official way. Then go there and have a look.

Did they prove to you that they do have a backupt plan at any point? Did the projects they were involved in show that they had a backup plan?

Did they prove that they don't have a backup plan?