Development Info South Park: The Stick of Truth delayed

[Mrowak]

- Obsidian don't have their own money. If they did, they wouldn't need to do a KickStarter.

4. I'm not saying that they have millions in their stash (although even that is possible)
- No. It is NOT possible. Why on EARTH would it be possible - when they've just asked for a measly $1M to do P:E? What, it was to top up Feargus' personal slush-fund? "Oh hey guys, we've got millions in our stash but uh, give us more cash!". If anything, that only makes things worse.

Stop for a moment and think about it. If you still don't get it... don't try running a business.

"Why ask for a zero risk investment with no interest and reputation as the only collateral"

Haba, we know these lads want to make a blockbuster game. The thing is, when it comes to business and planning time and time again they prove to be incompetent. This is the point DU has made, not that they do not care about their reputation. It often turns out that you may be eager, talented and hard-working, and motivated by the risk but this will mean jack shit if work isn't done in a proper way on time with appropriate resources. That's why most of Obsidian games are lacking - they do have terrific ideas done by individuals but they are never fully realised and these features appear to exist in vacuum.

It seems clear to me that DU has been involved in at least one major software project or was hired by a bigger company, and just like me, he knows how project management works and what considerations must be taken into account when planning one. So far P:E does not show any marks of well-executed project - quite the opposite.

 

[FeelTheRads]

(they own some IPs that would surprise you guys)

When the fuck are you gonna get drunk and spill the beans? Come on, now.

 

[Infinitron]

Why in God's name did you pledge money to this horrible band of incompetents who can't be trusted, Mrowak?

And more importantly, would it have spared us your incessant lectures if you hadn't?

 

[Mrowak]

Why in God's name did you pledge money to this horrible band of incompetents who can't be trusted, Mrowak?

And more importantly, would it have spared us your incessant lectures if you hadn't?

Why did you back them up Infinitron? I guess my reason is the same as yours. My lectures may be incessant but at least they are backed by something more than fanboyism.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

1. Did I bruise your ego or something?

No, your basic statements belie a complete lack of understanding. IE: You have absolutely no personal experience to draw on for a comparative basis.

2. Not all countries use heating by electricity since it is one of the most expensive sources of heating.

Good God you're a dumbass. Heating and cooling is expensive, even if you're using gas or oil. Or what, you think Obsidian have a fucking wooden stove in their Irvine, Californian city offices?

By the way, you bothered reading up about what FSG means yet? You know, from that "pointless" calculation.

If you rent 100 sq meters

Again, 100 sqm is peanuts. When are you guys going to get through your thick, overly dense skulls that the figures you are throwing around are nothing? 100 sqm is about 1000 sqf - and we've already said they'd need at least 4,000 sqf for the P:E team of 20. Four times your estimate. And even then 4,000 sqf is on the lower end of the estimated space required.

but you use up only 80 do you think that you won't have to heat/cool the place? A magic wall will separate heat/conditioning from coming to that unused space.

So Obsidian are spending money remodelling their office with artifical walls every-time they sack someone now? And they're doing this for a measly "100 sqm". There goes your "few hundred thousand". Seriously, have you guys ever actually looked at the costs associated with re-modelling a CBD office? No wonder Obsidian are broke.

50$ should be the cost of electricity or direct production costs and ONLY for a single PC electricity usage.

Apparently these guys don't need lights. Oh wait I'm sorry, that comes out of the budget for something else, doesn't it? Good management practices you've got there.

You are not renting new space for your production! So this unused area is a dead weight loss for the company anyway, but it's the cost of running the big project such as South Park.

1. One more time for good measure because apparently the brain cells are light in this one: "layoffs impacted the existing South Park team".

1. Your point is?

The entire basis of your argument is that Obsidian, with the funds they received from South Park, have purchased a large amount of office space - in fact, at least $122k more office space than they need. Obsidian, which "only has a few hundred k spare" apparently is willingly throwing away this extra hundred k "because hey, that's what they do". So rather than saving $100k, they've thrown it away. They've then encountered a financial problem and sacked some of that project's staff, adding even more to the office space they're wasting money on.

Does that sound like good management to you? "Hey uhh, we're gonna have to sack some people because uhhh we spent a lot of cash on office space we didn't actually need...".

4. Now you said "70 sqm" of free space. Ask yourself if you can fit 20 developers in that amount of space (the average Australian home of 4 people is 200+ sqm). You actually need at least 200 square feet per employee (about 18 sqm). We're not just talking desks here, we have to include things like "able to actually walk up to their desk and sit in it". So we're really looking at around 4,000 square feet of office space that we need for this team.

4. There are people living in even larger homes so what's your point? Does this means that a person or an employee needs so much space?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...RedBalloon1.jpg/240px-OpenPlanRedBalloon1.jpg . Or do you think that people actually live in those 50 sqm?

"in typical office scenarios, you can estimate 175-250 square feet per employee"

"Cubicles: Programmers (125 sq. ft.)"

"For 100% open cube area: 200 SF per person"

"The customary range for office space is 150-350 square feet (SF) per person employed"

My point is: Do some basic fucking research before you open your noise hole. And no, looking at a pretty picture doesn't count.

5. We know Obsidian are based in 8105 Irvine Center Drive. Floor space there is $2.55 FSG (Full Service Gross). That's per square foot, and with a figure of around a few dollars, should also be per month (if it was per year it'd be more in the double digits).

4,000 square feet * $2.55 FSG per month * 12 months = $122,400

5. Pointless calculation.

Of course the morons arguing about "just a few hundred k spare cash", think that working out Obsidian are spending at least $100k plus on office space they're not using, is pointless.

6. Apparently Obsidian, a company with "just a few hundred thousand in spare cash", can afford to spend $122k per year on office space they're not using. Does that sound smart to you?

6. It depends on the situation in the market and in the company. How much would relocating cost? Is there a good place to relocate to, that is also cheaper? It doesn't make sense to pay for a lot of free space, but for a little? Relocating is also money and a good place is hard to find. So they might be renting the place until they go bust or break through. Again if they would go bust, they would go bust, because they don't have customers and not because of expensive rent.

7. Even more fun, we know Obsidian are in Suite 200 which according to that page is 37,206 square feet (an entire floor) - or $1.1M per year...

7. The question is: Can they rent less or they have to relocate?

We've already established that Obsidian - if they really do have the whole floor (which given their staff levels, is reasonably likely) - are spending $1.1M on office space per annum. That's about $100k per month.

Any rental agreement would be for at least 90 days (in fact the site for their building linked earlier said 90 days). 90 days is 3 months.

You believe Obsidian have "only a few hundred k" sitting in their bank account.

If they are hit with financial disaster, that "few hundred k" completes their rental contract. And that's it.

We won't even bother to add other financial obligations they'd have like employee payouts.

8. Sorry, what spare cash did you reckon they had?

8. It was my guess not reliable information.

That's my point. You're not even guessing with real world facts. You're "guessing" with numbers like "80 sqm" and "$50 for a PC". If you're going to do this exercise, at least use some real fucking numbers. Or, you know, measure the average office cubicle. And then don't forget that you need extra space to be able to walk into the damn thing.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

DU, what makes you so certain they didn't have $1M? Maybe they asked for this much because:
a) They had almost enough money to start the project an thought "Hey, only one milion more and we're good to go."
b) They asked for a smaller sum because they were afraid about not reaching the goal (yeah, they got $4M, but for some people getting a meager $250K is far too much )

Because they didn't mention it. Take a look at the Wasteland 2 KickStarter. Fargo made it clear from day one that the game would cost $1M - but he was only asking for $900k because he was going to kick the last $100k in himself.

If Obsidian really had that much cash, why not mention it during the KickStarter? Surely it would be AWESOMENESS. "Hai guyz Obsidn r pootin dere on cash in! donate donate donate". Why not advertise they're making a higher quality and larger $2M game instead of a $1M game?

You guys really are concocting some bizarre "cross your fingers, close your eyes and dream" scenarios here.

- Obsidian don't have their own money. If they did, they wouldn't need to do a KickStarter.

4. I'm not saying that they have millions in their stash (although even that is possible)
- No. It is NOT possible. Why on EARTH would it be possible - when they've just asked for a measly $1M to do P:E? What, it was to top up Feargus' personal slush-fund? "Oh hey guys, we've got millions in our stash but uh, give us more cash!". If anything, that only makes things worse.

Stop for a moment and think about it. If you still don't get it... don't try running a business.

"Why ask for a zero risk investment with no interest and reputation as the only collateral"

So basically you're saying Obsidian are cashed up developers with a few million in the bank, who have basically said that rather than fund their own game from their own pockets - they'd just get risk-free cash and not worry too much if their reputation goes down the toilet if it turns out shit or they're unable to finish it?

Oh yeah, and this is after sacking people because they ran out of cash. "Sorry Bob, we know you only started today - but you're fired. We do actually have enough cash to keep you on and even finish this project but meh, whatevs just because fuck, right?"

Nice company you guys believe in there.

"Hey guise, lets keep on working on this project that we have no IP rights on just because fuck."

... "just because... it'd allow us to finish the project and get revenue from royalty payments".

You guys are great. Seriously.

1. What happens if during development, they see that they have to throw a few hundred thousand into the project.
- It means they fucked up. And if they fucked that up, they really fucked up.

That means that they have to put 100.000 to a game which will yield them a better game which will bring them higher profit. Why? What is the alternative? Cancel the game when it is 99% done? To lose everything? I think they will gladly put 100K into the money from their own reserves.

That you seriously believe that "just an extra $100k!" would finish that project that's almost done is laughable. $100k doesn't even pay for fucking PRODUCTION of the DVDs. Your scenario and the dollar figures you're throwing around would be like Obsidian going "Hey guys, we need an extra bit of cash to print the manual". And yet you seriously believe they'll use this cash to what, tidy up the end-game a bit? Keep a developer or three on to finish that quest line?

Obsidian is a medium sized company which is in the RPG business for almost a decade. Do you really think that they don't have at least a few hundred thousand dollars in their bank accounts as reserves. Not having that would really be the sign of fucked up management. Companies which are in the business for a long time prepare for unexpected events, that's why they are keeping reserves. You can say that trololol, than why do they need the kickstarter money. That's because I never said that that is a huge ammount of cash. Again, a few 100K.

Again, a few hundred k is peanuts.

Again, a few hundred k would go on the rent (they'd be obligated for something like 90 days).

Again, those cash reserves are to keep their doors open and the lights on.

Again, if they get down to "the last few hundred k in their bank account" and spend it, that means they have got really fucked up management.

You still don't understand. After a AAA project is cancelled, they would need millions to keep those 20-30 peopole at Obsidian. Those few 100K reserve wouldn't save them. But it could be partly used for PE IF THE RELEASE OF THE GAME DEPENDS ON IT.

If the release of P:E - a $4 million dollar project - comes down to "a few hundred k", someone, somewhere, seriously fucked things up.

Ok, I admit that they might not have millions.

No, no, no. There's no "might" about it.

The things you guys are arguing are that Obsidian should:
- Take money received for one project (Stick of Truth), which they can't even afford to keep developers on for, to go towards P:E (What does that tell you about Obsidian's faith, belief or management in those projects?).
- Use cash reserves which would be for things like "shutting down the business" or meeting contractual obligations to employees and spend that on game development - because things have gotten so tight they've run out of all their other cash.
- That they have "might, maybe, could possibly have, wink, wink, nudge, nudge" millions that they've decided they'd rather keep themselves than use on projects (projects which would theoretically make them millions).

What you guys are describing is a fucking awful business that's going down the toilet.

 

[Infinitron]

Are you trying to get hired as Project Manager at Obsidian, DU?

My lectures may be incessant but at least they are backed by something more than fanboyism.

They're backed by assumptions that are less sound than mine.

My take on Obsidian's current situation is based on a straightforward appraisal of the known facts - ie, they're swimming in a pile of money they had no idea they would get, and can easily allocate funds for financing additional months of development of P:E, should there be a need.

 

[Mrowak]

Are you trying to get hired as Project Manager at Obsidian, DU?

My lectures may be incessant but at least they are backed by something more than fanboyism.

They're backed by assumptions that are less sound than mine.

My take on Obsidian's current situation is based on a straightforward appraisal of the known facts - ie, they're swimming in a pile of money they had no idea they would get, and can easily allocate funds for financing additional months of development of P:E, should there be a need.

Your appraisal is off, because you ignore contexts. First, you have no fucking clue how easy is for a project to turn into a money sink and what steps must be taken in order to preevent that. What's worse you ignore the fact that Obsidian does have problems, they do mismanage funds (employing new hands, to fire them a day later), and that they do not have a history of well-made projects.

Incidentally, because of our discussions I decided to start simultaneous run of NWN2 SoZ and Dragon Age: Origins, just to see if I am not prejudiced... Quite frankly, in spite of my reservations against Bioware nad rather bad writing on thei part, DA:O wins, by a huge margin. DA:O is simply a better made product and visibly the last one that wasn't rushed by Bioware. NWN2 - for being a major clusterfuck gameplaywise - cannot hold a candle.

 

[Infinitron]

Your appraisal is off, because you ignore contexts. First, you have no fucking clue how easy is for a project to turn into a money sink and what steps must be taken in order to preevent that. What's worse you ignore the fact that Obsidian does have problems, they do mismanage funds (employing new hands, to fire them a day later), and that they do not have a history of well-made projects.

I deem the "context" to be of little relevance because this is an entirely new way of making games for them. That's doubly true for inXile.

Incidentally, because of our discussions I decided to start simultaneous run of NWN2 SoZ and Dragon Age: Origins, just to see if I am not prejudiced... Quite frankly, in spite of my reservations against Bioware nad rather bad writing on thei part, DA:O wins, by a huge margin. DA:O is simply a better made product and visibly the last one that wasn't rushed by Bioware. NWN2 - for being a major clusterfuck gameplaywise - cannot hold a candle.

Who cares? We're not talking about game quality or game polish here, we're talking about whether they can balance their checkbooks.

Also, wtf, you can't compare an obviously low-budget expansion pack with a game that took years and years to make. That is just dishonest.

 

[Mrowak]

Your appraisal is off, because you ignore contexts. First, you have no fucking clue how easy is for a project to turn into a money sink and what steps must be taken in order to preevent that. What's worse you ignore the fact that Obsidian does have problems, they do mismanage funds (employing new hands, to fire them a day later), and that they do not have a history of well-made projects.

I deem the "context" to be of little relevance because this is an entirely new way of making games.

No. Once the money are in the project has the same constraints as any other. How does obtaining funds via Kickstarter change the nature of the project? Apparently in no way since you keep arguing they have no obligation of sharing their plans with us... which they didn't prepare, btw.

Incidentally, because of our discussions I decided to start simultaneous run of NWN2 SoZ and Dragon Age: Origins, just to see if I am not prejudiced... Quite frankly, in spite of my reservations against Bioware nad rather bad writing on thei part, DA:O wins, by a huge margin. DA:O is simply a better made product and visibly the last one that wasn't rushed by Bioware. NWN2 - for being a major clusterfuck gameplaywise - cannot hold a candle.

Who cares? We're not talking about game quality or game polish here, we're talking about whether they can balance their checkbooks.

Which will have bearing on the quality of the project. Personally I have no doubt they will deliver something - there's that or making shovelware. The question is what it is that they are going to spawn - because mismanagement does impact the quality of the final product, you know? As they prove time and time again. I am not optimistic here - they didn't give me any reasons to be.

Also, wtf, you can't compare a low-budget expansion pack with a game that took years and years to make.

I was being nice here - I used the expansions which has best gameplay, most features and has been patched up. You honestly want me to compare NWN2 OC and DA:O? That would be... cruel.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Eh, if South Park shits the bed, they'll drop a bunch of employees and keep the rest for Project Eternity. South Park's probably at the point where it will be released one way or another. Feargus is a survivor. Obsidian will make it just fine and I'd even bet my life on it.

 

[Infinitron]

How does obtaining funds via Kickstarter change the nature of the project?

It's a completely different sort of project. Smaller team, smaller budget, different technology, different design priorities. Everything has changed. We have no context.

I was being nice here - I used the expansions which has best gameplay, most features and has been patched up. You honestly want me to compare NWN2 OC and DA:O? That would be... cruel.

Yes, that would be the right thing to do. But remember that none of the NWN campaigns (in NWN1 or NWN2) was supposed to be the ultimate single player RPG experience. That's not what the games were made for.

 

[Mrowak]

How does obtaining funds via Kickstarter change the nature of the project?

It's a completely different sort of project. Smaller team, smaller budget, different technology, different design priorities. Everything has changed. We have no context.

You are wrong. You talk about the details, but what I've been clamouring here over is methodology which does not change. Regardless of the size of the project its stages remain the same, as the requirements and resources. The numbers are may vary, the scale may be different and amount of work may shit but what the teams do in each stage is largely the same.

Of course there's the question of workload (which may prompt more stages of development) - they did take a lot upon themselves, and frankly I have no idea how they are going to pull it off with just skeleton crew.

I was being nice here - I used the expansions which has best gameplay, most features and has been patched up. You honestly want me to compare NWN2 OC and DA:O? That would be... cruel.

Yes, that would be the right thing to do. But remember that none of the NWN campaigns (in NWN1 or NWN2) was supposed to be the ultimate single player RPG experience. That's not what the games were made for.

To me it's a weak excuse for being mediocre or downright bad. It laso serves to prove that Bioware managed to achieve their goal due to their competence (DA:O did becaome a classic - maybe not by Codex's standards but it did), whereas Obsidian has not achieved anything on account of lack of vision and poor project execution. Which is a shame, because they are obviously more talented. They just are not serious enough.

 

[Infinitron]

You are wrong. You talk about the details, but what I've been clamouring here over is methodology which does not change. Regardless of the size of the project its stages remain the same, as the requirements and resources. The numbers are may vary, the scale may be different and amount of work may shit but what the teams do in each stage is largely the same. Of course there's the question of workload (which may prompt more stages of development) - they did take a lot upon themselves, and frankly I have no idea how they are going to pull it off with just skeletion crew.

How am I wrong? If Obsidian is the successor of Black Isle, and now they're setting out to make a Black Isle-style game, more similar to those games than anything Obsidian has ever made, then shouldn't the context of Black Isle's performance suggest that they will make an excellent game?

Why do you think NWN2 is more relevant to Project Eternity than Planescape Torment is?

 

[Mrowak]

You are wrong. You talk about the details, but what I've been clamouring here over is methodology which does not change. Regardless of the size of the project its stages remain the same, as the requirements and resources. The numbers are may vary, the scale may be different and amount of work may shit but what the teams do in each stage is largely the same. Of course there's the question of workload (which may prompt more stages of development) - they did take a lot upon themselves, and frankly I have no idea how they are going to pull it off with just skeletion crew.

How am I wrong? If Obsidian is the successor of Black Isle, and now they're setting out to make a Black Isle-style game, more similar to those games than anything Obsidian has ever made, then shouldn't the context of Black Isle's performance suggest that they will make an excellent game?

That was long ago my friend, and they greater budgets, ready assets and much larger teams. I am basing my observations on recent history, you on the other hand focus on the past and the games that were made with the involvement of Bioware. If what you put emphasis on was enough, nothing like Alpha Protocol or NWN2 OC would have taken place.

Frankly, I hoped they would prove to me in the pitch they are professional, serious and they really know what they are getting themselves into. But they did not bother. So to me they really do not reach to Black Isle's legacy.

 

[Infinitron]

That was long ago my friend, and they greater budgets, ready assets and much larger teams. I am basing my observations on recent history, you on the other hand focus on the past and the games that were made with the involvement of Bioware. If what you put emphasis on was enough nothing like Alpha Protocol or NWN2 OC would have taken place.

Again, these were different sorts of games. Gaming history is full of the sad tales of fallen developers who couldn't adjust to new types of games and new ways of making games. Did they suddenly become shit developers? No. They just couldn't keep on doing what they were best at.

Obsidian is just a less severe case of this.

 

[Mrowak]

That was long ago my friend, and they greater budgets, ready assets and much larger teams. I am basing my observations on recent history, you on the other hand focus on the past and the games that were made with the involvement of Bioware. If what you put emphasis on was enough nothing like Alpha Protocol or NWN2 OC would have taken place.

Again, these were different sorts of games. Gaming history is full of the sad tales of fallen developers who couldn't adjust to new types of games and new ways of making games. Did they suddenly become shit developers?

As individuals the folks at Obsidian are great. As a team they are shit, yes.

 

[Infinitron]

That was long ago my friend, and they greater budgets, ready assets and much larger teams. I am basing my observations on recent history, you on the other hand focus on the past and the games that were made with the involvement of Bioware. If what you put emphasis on was enough nothing like Alpha Protocol or NWN2 OC would have taken place.

Again, these were different sorts of games. Gaming history is full of the sad tales of fallen developers who couldn't adjust to new types of games and new ways of making games.

As individuals they are great. As a team they are shit, yes.

Your problem is that you think teams are categorically either good or shit. I recognize that teams can be good or shit at making different sorts of games.

For example, Blizzard South are good at making WoW but they kind of fucked up Diablo.

I say there's a good chance Obsidian have been forced all these years to make games of a type which just isn't their strong suit.

 

[l3loodAngel]

2. Not all countries use heating by electricity since it is one of the most expensive sources of heating.

Good God you're a dumbass. Heating and cooling is expensive, even if you're using gas or oil. Or what, you think Obsidian have a fucking wooden stove in their Irvine, Californian city offices?

By the way, you bothered reading up about what FSG means yet? You know, from that "pointless" calculation.

That enforces my point that there is no need to transfer costs to PE as they are already paying for floor space. That actually means that you can cram 150 people in there and your rent won't increase, because surprise they have already payed for it!!!!

If you rent 100 sq meters

Again, 100 sqm is peanuts. When are you guys going to get through your thick, overly dense skulls that the figures you are throwing around are nothing? 100 sqm is about 1000 sqf - and we've already said they'd need at least 4,000 sqf for the P:E team of 20. Four times your estimate. And even then 4,000 sqf is on the lower end of the estimated space required.

1. Estimated space required for what? You know that people can work in a smaller area. It would be good to or should be does not count. 100 sqm was just an example to explain my point, do I need to write it's an example every time, seriously? If YOU rent 100 sq meters. Where: YOU =/= Obsidian, 100 sq meters - random number for explaining my point.

but you use up only 80 do you think that you won't have to heat/cool the place? A magic wall will separate heat/conditioning from coming to that unused space.

So Obsidian are spending money remodelling their office with artifical walls every-time they sack someone now? And they're doing this for a measly "100 sqm". There goes your "few hundred thousand". Seriously, have you guys ever actually looked at the costs associated with re-modelling a CBD office? No wonder Obsidian are broke.

No my point was that you can't cut off heat and cooling going to unused spaces even if you want to. If you rent 100 sqm of space, but utilize only 80 you will need to heat/cool the rest as There is no way of stopping air from circulating. Here is a picture so YOU could do a research: MYSTARY OF AIR and I am not even talking about open office
Also what does remodeling has to do with anything here?

50$ should be the cost of electricity or direct production costs and ONLY for a single PC electricity usage.

Apparently these guys don't need lights. Oh wait I'm sorry, that comes out of the budget for something else, doesn't it? Good management practices you've got there.

If they have FSG there it makes no sense to calculate it, but PCs do use up more power than power saving light bulbs as PCs are turned on all the time while lights are turned on in the evening or night.

You are not renting new space for your production! So this unused area is a dead weight loss for the company anyway, but it's the cost of running the big project such as South Park.

1. One more time for good measure because apparently the brain cells are light in this one: "layoffs impacted the existing South Park team".

1. Your point is?

The entire basis of your argument is that Obsidian, with the funds they received from South Park, have purchased a large amount of office space - in fact, at least $122k more office space than they need. Obsidian, which "only has a few hundred k spare" apparently is willingly throwing away this extra hundred k "because hey, that's what they do". So rather than saving $100k, they've thrown it away. They've then encountered a financial problem and sacked some of that project's staff, adding even more to the office space they're wasting money on.

Does that sound like good management to you? "Hey uhh, we're gonna have to sack some people because uhhh we spent a lot of cash on office space we didn't actually need...".

If you would look at the Irvine center drive rent plans you will see that you either rent 37k sqft or 6-7K sqft. I doubt that you can cram that much people with meeting rums, relax areas, bathrooms, kitchen and etc. If you will look at the available contracts on the site you will see that there are no: Rent how much you need plans... So they reduced the expenses where they could, so that the company would survive.

To give an example for that, let's look at factories. Everybody knows that they hire more people before the holiday season as temporary employees to keep up with increased production demand. Does that means that the almost all factories don't utilize the production capabilities? Yes, but you don't see them relocating every nine months, because it is easier to increase production in an existing area than to relocate or build a bigger one. AGAIN if Obsidian will go bust it will be not because they rented too much floor space, but because they don't have clients.

4. Now you said "70 sqm" of free space. Ask yourself if you can fit 20 developers in that amount of space (the average Australian home of 4 people is 200+ sqm). You actually need at least 200 square feet per employee (about 18 sqm). We're not just talking desks here, we have to include things like "able to actually walk up to their desk and sit in it". So we're really looking at around 4,000 square feet of office space that we need for this team.

4. There are people living in even larger homes so what's your point? Does this means that a person or an employee needs so much space?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...RedBalloon1.jpg/240px-OpenPlanRedBalloon1.jpg . Or do you think that people actually live in those 50 sqm?

My point is: Do some basic fucking research before you open your noise hole. And no, looking at a pretty picture doesn't count.

That floor space is already paid for so there is NO need to buy extra. If they need to cram their employees for the company to survive they will do that. What do your links prove? That it would be better to have more space for employees? Look at 1.

8. Sorry, what spare cash did you reckon they had?

8. It was my guess not reliable information.

That's my point. You're not even guessing with real world facts. You're "guessing" with numbers like "80 sqm" and "$50 for a PC". If you're going to do this exercise, at least use some real fucking numbers. Or, you know, measure the average office cubicle. And then don't forget that you need extra space to be able to walk into the damn thing.

Give me their cash flow statement and I will gladly tell you the exact number. We are all guessing here.

Are you trying to get hired as Project Manager at Obsidian, DU?

No, no, he is aiming for the stars. Warren Buffet and Donal Trump beware, the creative minds that banned Obsidian (the only mainstream developer that does post on the codex) from codex will rock your business world. The team of enlightened business and accounting mavericks will force you to retire broke.

 

[Mrowak]

That was long ago my friend, and they greater budgets, ready assets and much larger teams. I am basing my observations on recent history, you on the other hand focus on the past and the games that were made with the involvement of Bioware. If what you put emphasis on was enough nothing like Alpha Protocol or NWN2 OC would have taken place.

Again, these were different sorts of games. Gaming history is full of the sad tales of fallen developers who couldn't adjust to new types of games and new ways of making games.

As individuals they are great. As a team they are shit, yes.

Your problem is that you think teams are categorically either good or shit. I recognize that teams can be good or shit at making different sorts of games.

Jebus Christ, I just summarised my thoughts here - no need of accusing me of falling into dychotomies. Of all the people here I do not succumb to that.

For example, Blizzard South are good at making WoW but they kind of fucked up Diablo.

I say there's a good chance Obsidian have been forced all these years to make games of a type which just isn't their strong suit.

NWN2. It's precisely the type of game you speak of. Now if you were right then NWN2 should have been a stellar success. Was it? No - not by any streatch of imagination.

Also, you are too lenient to them. Developers are expected to be flexible and are supposed to come up with *plans* of their projects. Because that's what software development is about - finding new answers to new problems. Saying that they should be excused because they coudn't find an answer to a new problem, or that the problem did fit the template they had prepared long ago only highlights their incompetence.

Come up with ideas. That's what plans are for. Make them and then stick to them.

 

[Cassidy]

-snip-
Who are you people? Do you even have brains?

People with brains don't become blind Obsidian fanboys in the first place.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

That enforces my point that there is no need to transfer costs to PE as they are already paying for floor space. That actually means that you can cram 150 people in there and your rent won't increase, because surprise they have already payed for it!!!!

How on Earth can you argue that on one-hand, "just a few hundred thousand" could be what saves P:E and gets it to completion, while on the other, you blithely throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of office space because "it's already being paid for"?

Already being paid for by whom? And where did that money come from? If it's coming out of the South Park budget (their only source of income?), then why are they spending that money on office space they don't need, instead of on South Park?

Estimated space required for what? You know that people can work in a smaller area.

And yet they're not.

You go tell Josh he should be working in a smaller room.

but you use up only 80 do you think that you won't have to heat/cool the place? A magic wall will separate heat/conditioning from coming to that unused space.

So Obsidian are spending money remodelling their office with artifical walls every-time they sack someone now? And they're doing this for a measly "100 sqm". There goes your "few hundred thousand". Seriously, have you guys ever actually looked at the costs associated with re-modelling a CBD office? No wonder Obsidian are broke.

No my point was that you can't cut off heat and cooling going to unused spaces even if you want to. If you rent 100 sqm of space, but utilize only 80 you will need to heat/cool the rest as There is no way of stopping air from circulating.

I originally raised that "Heating and cooling that empty floor space is a huge cost." I read your reply about "a magical wall will separate heat/conditioning from coming to that unused space" as saracastic, but in the sense that I read it as you thinking that putting up a wall (and hence remodelling the office) was an easy, cost-effective thing to do that would reduce their heating / cooling bills.

If I misunderstood you, then fair enough. But it's good to know you agree that there are costs that must be paid - and paying them for empty space is a waste.

50$ should be the cost of electricity or direct production costs and ONLY for a single PC electricity usage.

Apparently these guys don't need lights. Oh wait I'm sorry, that comes out of the budget for something else, doesn't it? Good management practices you've got there.

If they have FSG there it makes no sense to calculate it, but PCs do use up more power than power saving light bulbs as PCs are turned on all the time while lights are turned on in the evening or night.

Ok, now I know you've never had a real job in an office building.

Pro-tip: The lights are always on. Yes, even during the day. Otherwise it actually gets pretty dark inside.

You are not renting new space for your production! So this unused area is a dead weight loss for the company anyway, but it's the cost of running the big project such as South Park.

1. One more time for good measure because apparently the brain cells are light in this one: "layoffs impacted the existing South Park team".

1. Your point is?

The entire basis of your argument is that Obsidian, with the funds they received from South Park, have purchased a large amount of office space - in fact, at least $122k more office space than they need. Obsidian, which "only has a few hundred k spare" apparently is willingly throwing away this extra hundred k "because hey, that's what they do". So rather than saving $100k, they've thrown it away. They've then encountered a financial problem and sacked some of that project's staff, adding even more to the office space they're wasting money on.

Does that sound like good management to you? "Hey uhh, we're gonna have to sack some people because uhhh we spent a lot of cash on office space we didn't actually need...".

If you would look at the Irvine center drive rent plans you will see that you either rent 37k sqft or 6-7K sqft. I doubt that you can cram that much people with meeting rums, relax areas, bathrooms, kitchen and etc. If you will look at the available contracts on the site you will see that there are no: Rent how much you need plans... So they reduced the expenses where they could, so that the company would survive.[/quote]
BINGO! In one fell sweep you've finally understood what's actually happened. Obsidian have HUGE offices - along with the corresponding overhead. In order to just keep the doors open, they need to have constant projects going on. If they don't, they couldn't afford to have such a large area.

In other words, P:E wasn't started because of an altruistic notion that "now was the time". It was started because they needed a project so that they could continue to pay the bills.

That floor space is already paid for so there is NO need to buy extra. If they need to cram their employees for the company to survive they will do that. What do your links prove? That it would be better to have more space for employees? Look at 1.

First, it's not "already paid for". They'd typically pay their rent every month, possibly in advance. That office space isn't paid for until that month comes around. That means they need cash sitting around to pay their bill (which we can already reasonably assume is around $100k per month) OR they need an ongoing income.

Second, Obsidian haven't shown a desire to cram. If they did, they wouldn't have rented an entire floor in a multi-level building in the city.

Third, once more for good luck, have you even bothered to take a look at Obsidian's office setup?

"The offices take up some 40,000 square feet, allowing plenty of room for conference areas and a lounge for each development team."
[...]
"Obsidian's offices also include their own motion-capture studio and their own sound studio - two unusual features in a development studio this size. “It's really advantageous to be able to do all that stuff in house,” said Avellone."
[...]
"The large break room area"

You yourself argued against the costs associated with moving. That means they have to pay for all of this shit.

And again, would you care to tell me where that money's coming from?

 

[Jaesun]

Epic trolling.

 

[Infinitron]

NWN2. It's precisely the type of game you speak of.

The game itself is closer in spirit to the Infinity Engine than anything else they've ever made, but not close enough it seems. Josh Sawyer agrees.

Also, you are too lenient to them. Developers are expected to be flexible and are supposed to come up with *plans* of their projects. Because that's what software development is about - finding new answers to new problems. Saying that they should be excused because they coudn't find an answer to a new problem, or that the problem did fit the template they had prepared long ago only highlights their incompetence.

Whatever. I don't give a fuck, because I only want them to make one type of a game.

Anyway, you never actually told me why you gave so much money to this band of bungling incompetents. I'm pretty sure you gave more money than I did.

 

[l3loodAngel]

That enforces my point that there is no need to transfer costs to PE as they are already paying for floor space. That actually means that you can cram 150 people in there and your rent won't increase, because surprise they have already payed for it!!!!

How on Earth can you argue that on one-hand, "just a few hundred thousand" could be what saves P:E and gets it to completion, while on the other, you blithely throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of office space because "it's already being paid for"?

Already being paid for by whom? And where did that money come from? If it's coming out of the South Park budget (their only source of income?), then why are they spending that money on office space they don't need, instead of on South Park?

Yes, most likely from SP as it is the only AAA title in the making ATM.

Estimated space required for what? You know that people can work in a smaller area.

And yet they're not.

You go tell Josh he should be working in a smaller room.

It's the job of Feargus. I think that JS would understand that it's either working in a smaller room or not working at the Obsidian at all. You claim to know what he will pick. So you tell me.

but you use up only 80 do you think that you won't have to heat/cool the place? A magic wall will separate heat/conditioning from coming to that unused space.

So Obsidian are spending money remodelling their office with artifical walls every-time they sack someone now? And they're doing this for a measly "100 sqm". There goes your "few hundred thousand". Seriously, have you guys ever actually looked at the costs associated with re-modelling a CBD office? No wonder Obsidian are broke.

No my point was that you can't cut off heat and cooling going to unused spaces even if you want to. If you rent 100 sqm of space, but utilize only 80 you will need to heat/cool the rest as There is no way of stopping air from circulating.

I originally raised that "Heating and cooling that empty floor space is a huge cost." I read your reply about "a magical wall will separate heat/conditioning from coming to that unused space" as saracastic, but in the sense that I read it as you thinking that putting up a wall (and hence remodelling the office) was an easy, cost-effective thing to do that would reduce their heating / cooling bills.

If I misunderstood you, then fair enough. But it's good to know you agree that there are costs that must be paid - and paying them for empty space is a waste.

You have got to be kidding me. A wall in an rented FSG office to stop air circulation?

You are not renting new space for your production! So this unused area is a dead weight loss for the company anyway, but it's the cost of running the big project such as South Park.

1. One more time for good measure because apparently the brain cells are light in this one: "layoffs impacted the existing South Park team".

1. Your point is?

The entire basis of your argument is that Obsidian, with the funds they received from South Park, have purchased a large amount of office space - in fact, at least $122k more office space than they need. Obsidian, which "only has a few hundred k spare" apparently is willingly throwing away this extra hundred k "because hey, that's what they do". So rather than saving $100k, they've thrown it away. They've then encountered a financial problem and sacked some of that project's staff, adding even more to the office space they're wasting money on.

Does that sound like good management to you? "Hey uhh, we're gonna have to sack some people because uhhh we spent a lot of cash on office space we didn't actually need...".

If you would look at the Irvine center drive rent plans you will see that you either rent 37k sqft or 6-7K sqft. I doubt that you can cram that much people with meeting rums, relax areas, bathrooms, kitchen and etc. If you will look at the available contracts on the site you will see that there are no: Rent how much you need plans... So they reduced the expenses where they could, so that the company would survive.[/quote]

BINGO! In one fell sweep you've finally understood what's actually happened. Obsidian have HUGE offices - along with the corresponding overhead. In order to just keep the doors open, they need to have constant projects going on. If they don't, they couldn't afford to have such a large area.

In other words, P:E wasn't started because of an altruistic notion that "now was the time". It was started because they needed a project so that they could continue to pay the bills.

A business plan out of altruistic notion?

PE is too small to cover anything. The thing is that if Obsidian run out of AAA projects it will have to relocate to a very small office and embrace their indie status. They don't want that, but that may happen. Another thing is that you can't even bid for AAA projects if you don't have capacity to deliver and that capacity is incidentally floor space.

That floor space is already paid for so there is NO need to buy extra. If they need to cram their employees for the company to survive they will do that. What do your links prove? That it would be better to have more space for employees? Look at 1.

First, it's not "already paid for". They'd typically pay their rent every month, possibly in advance. That office space isn't paid for until that month comes around. That means they need cash sitting around to pay their bill (which we can already reasonably assume is around $100k per month) OR they need an ongoing income.

Second, Obsidian haven't shown a desire to cram. If they did, they wouldn't have rented an entire floor in a multi-level building in the city.

Third, once more for good luck, have you even bothered to take a look at Obsidian's office setup?

Don't make even a bigger fool out of yourself. You are the one yelling that remodeling costs a lot and now you tell me that a company that is broke according to you should relocate, pay for remodeling, have a production down time and etc. Not to mention that the sound and motion capture studios, could be the only thing keeping them in business. Do you even have a fucking clue how much it costs to make a sound room? With all the isolation and etc.

Nobody desires to cram, but if Obsidian would get 2-3 AAA projects going they would start cramming ASAP or if they won't get new projects going they would move and cram in a smaller office, leaving their AAA status far behind.

Also what does Obsidian's office setup has to do with the current status of the company? If the status changes the setup will also change. Or you are blaming Obsidian's office setup on their current financial situation?

"The offices take up some 40,000 square feet, allowing plenty of room for conference areas and a lounge for each development team."
[...]
"Obsidian's offices also include their own motion-capture studio and their own sound studio - two unusual features in a development studio this size. “It's really advantageous to be able to do all that stuff in house,” said Avellone."
[...]
"The large break room area"

You yourself argued against the costs associated with moving. That means they have to pay for all of this shit.

And again, would you care to tell me where that money's coming from?

This yet again proves my point rather than refutes it. This "shit" as you call it may be the reason why Obsidian is still in business as they can cut costs with those things and thus reduce their contract size with publishers. If they will get rid of it, it might mean that they have to kiss AAA titles good bye.

I don't know where money come from. It may be personal savings, but most likely SP since it is the only AAA project ATM. You can always ask Ben, MCA or Feargus if you do care so much.