[Spoilers] Was Project Eternity a day dream since the beginning?

[GloomFrost]

4 million is just not enough to make a huge and epic rpg with pretty graphics nowadays. Plain and simple.

Also only because a game (any game at all) is not as good as BG2 doesnt mean it is a bad game. Almost all games in this industry are not nearly as good as BG2. BTW BG2 takes place in a setting which is DECADES old and had a proper AAA budget. Yes I agree that Obsidian perhaps promised way too much and couldnt deliver but POE is still a solid and a fun RPG to play. One of the best cRPGs on the market.

 

[Roguey]

classes lacking versatility to instead fit defined MMO roles like Tank, DPS, Healbot, etc (I don't agree with that last one 100%, but I'll certainly concede the general point)

Never forget

I've been playing A/D&D for 28 years, 2nd Ed. for 11 of those, and this is the first time I've seen someone describe 2nd Ed. as flexible.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Never forget

Oh, goodness, yes. So many of the criticisms of PoE seem to be stuck in this weird, rose-tinted vision of BG2. I'm not trying to pin all the love BG2 gets on nostalgia - because BG2 is one of my all-time favourite games and, let's be honest, it's pretty awesome by just about any standard. But when people start saying things like "Why couldn't it have been like BG2 where the classes are all useful and flexible and the strongholds dramatically impacted the game," saying they're blinded by nostalgia is the only possible response. There is no other possible excuse for thinking those things. No useless classes? No inflexible classes? What the hell game were these people playing? And when people go on about how every single NPC in BG2 was amazing... Uh, what? I mean I'll agree that to me, none of the PoE NPCs were as entertaining or memorable as BG2's best NPCs, but IMHO none of the PoE NPCs were as bland or boring as snooze-fests like Cernd and Valygar.


I mean I don't want it to seem like I'm going in the other direction, saying something like "People are exaggerating BG2's greatness so PoE's flaws are totally acceptable!!" because I'm not. That'd be equally ridiculous. But if we're going to define the game by how it stacks up to BG2 (which most people seem set on doing and, as I said before, to be fair that's largely Obsidian's fault), then we've got to be willing to at least look at BG2 in a semi-objective light.

 

[Ninjerk]

^I wish I knew where you were reading these things.

EDIT: Nevermind, found them

 

[MilesBeyond]

There was a lot of it floating around the Codex, too, when PoE first came out. If one day you happen to be bored enough to leaf through the entire 200-page PoE release thread, you'll find some examples.

 

[Sensuki]

If you play on PotD and stay on the critical path you'll likely come across one or two encounters that will demand some level of creativity. In my case it was precisely three. Everywhere else the usual experience is the same. Each class has a specific role in combat, which means that your party make up has a specific tactic set up to it. The only matter is how much that you are going to apply, that is, how many of your per rest resources you'll spend in this or that encounter.

That's pretty much it right here.

Fighters are tanks. Wizards are AoE disablers. Druids are damage casters. Priests spam AoE healing. Rangers cast marked enemy on the same big asshole and then use wounding shot. It's the same thing every encounter. If you don't like this you won't like PoE.

I don't like this.

 

[Copper]

Man, this 'deeply though out fantasy world that makes sense' shit grinds my gears.

A, it's complete bullshit because of the Iron Curtain between story and gameplay leads to plenty of nonsensical situations that don't make any sense, such as the main roads being deathtraps, or one of the biggest cities in the world having high-level monster hordes within a day's walk, or how many undead their are given how specific and rare the circumstances for their creation are. I think the drake encounters and the lore are directly at odds.
B, A lot of this stuff is only communicated through the wiki bestiary, which is shit storytelling to start with. I neither knew nor cared about what pwygra were the entire time I fought them, despite the fucked up tree in Gilded Vale being a perfect opportunity to introduce them. Why are they in the Ruin near dyrford? Fuck knows, at least druids make relatively challenging caster opponents.
C, Some of the ideas are kinda dumb. Souls grind slowly down to dust while the kith population is inevitably increasing through technology & economic innovation - where do those souls come from? A colonial city becoming a world capital without industrialization or a massive native population to fuel it? Firearms stagnating when they're clearly awesome?

Eternity is a world with plenty of wagons, but no horses.

 

[Delterius]

A colonial city becoming a world capital

I think you are extrapolating things a bit.

 

[Roguey]

A, it's complete bullshit because of the Iron Curtain between story and gameplay leads to plenty of nonsensical situations that don't make any sense, such as the main roads being deathtraps, or one of the biggest cities in the world having high-level monster hordes within a day's walk, or how many undead their are given how specific and rare the circumstances for their creation are. I think the drake encounters and the lore are directly at odds.

Obsidian and I have zero fucks to give, this isn't a sim.

Furthermore none of your complaints make it any less true that J-Saw put more thought into Obsidian's fantasy world than any other crpg hack. It's an abysmally low bar.

 

[Copper]

A colonial city becoming a world capital

I think you are extrapolating things a bit.

Nope, it's a comment by the Crucible Knight's commander about the Dozens stirring shit.

 

[Catfish]

OP is probably correct on the kickstarter fever dream thing, expectations were set to ludicrous heights. Most of the criticisms leveled at the game are also pretty much spot on, my personal complaint being too much lore through text - it's like they just pasted design documents into the game without actually giving life to the lore.

However, they (and inxile and larian) did at least accomplish one worthwike thing by releasing their games - they put RPGs with actual depth as a design objective back on the industry map, thereby opening the door to new and better projects. Remember, it has been a long time since such games were even a thing - and now they are again.

So yes, it was a fever dream. But you will end up thanking the fever for restarting the genre

 

[Volrath]

OP is probably correct on the kickstarter fever dream thing, expectations were set to ludicrous heights. Most of the criticisms leveled at the game are also pretty much spot on, my personal complaint being too much lore through text - it's like they just pasted design documents into the game without actually giving life to the lore.

Too much reading lol!

However, they (and inxile and larian) did at least accomplish one worthwike thing by releasing their games - they put RPGs with actual depth as a design objective back on the industry map, thereby opening the door to new and better projects. Remember, it has been a long time since such games were even a thing - and now they are again.

Your naivety is charming.

So yes, it was a fever dream. But you will end up thanking the fever for restarting the genre

The genre as I knew it and want is dead and isn't coming back. No matter how much indie shit ends up being released.

 

[Catfish]

Too much reading lol!

I'm sorry, but this a product in a visual interactive medium. There are better ways to introduce the player to the world than throwing the equivalent of a LoTR appendix at them. Not that having said appendix is a bad thing, but it is not a substitute for good interactive storytelling.

Your naivety is charming.

The genre as I knew it and want is dead and isn't coming back. No matter how much indie shit ends up being released.

Call it wishful thinking, but I believe incline is yet possible. I mean the kickstarter stuff did deliver on a level, no reason they can't do better next time.

 

[Copper]

A, it's complete bullshit because of the Iron Curtain between story and gameplay leads to plenty of nonsensical situations that don't make any sense, such as the main roads being deathtraps, or one of the biggest cities in the world having high-level monster hordes within a day's walk, or how many undead their are given how specific and rare the circumstances for their creation are. I think the drake encounters and the lore are directly at odds.

Obsidian and I have zero fucks to give, this isn't a sim.

Furthermore none of your complaints make it any less true that J-Saw put more thought into Obsidian's fantasy world than any other crpg hack. It's an abysmally low bar.

The ultimate defense - shun the simmer!

But this is nothing about simulationism, as in mechanical systems of cause and effect. It's about presentation value - and the game itself demonstrates this. Most of the initial fights are given a lot of context - wolves defending their kill, natives defending their sacred rocks, slimes in the slime room, but that's largely gone after a few screens outside of specific quests. (Endless Paths does a reasonable job of this, at least as far as I bothered to go, with the interplay between the dead adventurers, the Xaurips and the ogres.)

I'm genuinely curious about what the 'deeply considered' aspects of Eternity are, to you or others, bar a few historical references and the con-langs.

 

[Irenaeus II]

I don't know if it was a day or a night dream, but it was a good dream.

 

[Roguey]

I'm genuinely curious about what the 'deeply considered' aspects of Eternity are, to you or others, bar a few historical references and the con-langs.

Pretty much everything I read in the Collector's book and Almanac. Additionally

Pallegina comments about that at one point when you return to Caed Nua. She refers to it as a fine castle built in "the old style", and that the Vailian Republics have started building star forts (like the Ozian Bastions) to deal with cannon fire.

Caed Nua and Raedric's Hold were built when cannons were in use, but were not considered as big of a threat in the deeper forests -- and no one had yet designed the star fort on Eora.

Historically (on Earth, I mean), retrofitting old castles to deal with cannon fire took a huge amount of time and money, but new castles (in the Renaissance), especially built on coasts, were often built in the star fort style.

How many fantasy RPGs give a damn about things like this?

 

[Irenaeus II]

Very interesting info, Rogues

 

[Copper]

Oh, so stuff that isn't communicated within the actual gameplay experience. As for architecture - well, nobody wants me to rant about this shit for 500+ words, I guess, but consider me unimpressed by the actual evidence. From Defiance Bay to Caed Nua, the whole thing is as 'authentic' as Disneyland. (By the way, the cheap and easy way to retro-fit an old castle was to just build an earth wall called a glacis to deflect cannon fire aimed at breaking the wall's lower part - I'm sure the Pixies that maintain Caed Nua could do it in no time.)

And how many RPGs feature guns, exactly? Hell, Candlekeep/Friendly Arms looks more authentic than either - love of medieval architecture or cargo cult?

Spoiler

 

[Irenaeus II]

Looks like the Tower of London circa early 14th century.

 

[Catfish]

And how many RPGs feature guns, exactly?

Arcanum, for one. Incidentally, here is an example of a game that organically worked its lore into the world, unlike PoE. A shame Troika didn't hang around for too long

 

[Roguey]

Arcanum, the game where guns are supposed to be outclassing everything else, are actually mechanically worse than everything else. Organically working its lore into the world. Uh huh.

 

[hell bovine]

Arcanum, the game where guns are supposed to be outclassing everything else, are actually mechanically worse than everything else. Organically working its lore into the world. Uh huh.

So what was the lore behind firearms in Pillar's anyway? I freely admit I skipped so much dialogue in the game, that I probably missed it, but I don't recall any explanation as to why everyone is playing Wild West, despite having easy access to magic.

 

[Roguey]

So what was the lore behind firearms in Pillar's anyway? I freely admit I skipped so much dialogue in the game, that I probably missed it, but I don't recall any explanation as to why everyone is playing Wild West, despite having easy access to magic.

Guns slaughter wizards because they can easily pierce the arcane veil.

 

[hell bovine]

So what was the lore behind firearms in Pillar's anyway? I freely admit I skipped so much dialogue in the game, that I probably missed it, but I don't recall any explanation as to why everyone is playing Wild West, despite having easy access to magic.

Guns slaughter wizards because they can easily pierce the arcane veil.

Except arcane veil doesn't give enough of deflection to matter alone (they might've changed it with patches), because my experience on PotD is that you either get a very high deflection, or it's not worth trying, and a wizard needs other spells to reach that number. And there is no point in wasting spells for that, because the terrible enemy AI won't target the wizard. With the exception of fampyrs or shadows, who don't use guns anyway. If combat is supposed to be the explanation for guns in Pillar's, it's certainly not better than Arcanum.

But I am actually asking about the lore explaining how the firearms were invented. I don't recall anything about technological research anywhere (once again, it's possible that I've simply missed it). While the Sanitarium was well done, and one of the better ideas in this game, all the "science" done there was about souls. Where is the military tech research that would lead to gun production?

 

[Roguey]

(they might've changed it with patches)

Yep. Now it gives a massive +50 with the hardened upgrade adding +25 on top of that.

But I am actually asking about the lore explaining how the firearms were invented. I don't recall anything about technological research anywhere (once again, it's possible that I've simply missed it).

Assumingly divinely inspired by Magran.

Magran is the Aedyran name for a goddess
of war and fire. Magran’s priests commonly
employ firearms, and rumors among Eothasian
clergy support that they even helped construct
the Godhammer bomb used to destroy Saint
Waidwen. Following the Saint’s War, Magran
became the most popular deity in Dyrwood. In
Aedyr, her symbol is a flame, but in Dyrwood, it
is a flaming bomb. Worship of Magran is extensively
persecuted in Readceras.

Magran’s faithful are rank-and-file soldiers
as well as officers, tacticians, and strategists.
Devices used in warfare, especially those made
in the forge, such as weapons and armor, are
also part of Magran’s domain, and Abydon is
often an important ally for her. Her priests view
battle and warfare as inevitable human activities
that should be pursued with single-minded
efficiency. Consequently, she is not a goddess of
battle lust or celebration as much as military
excellence and passionate discipline.