[Spoilers] Was Project Eternity a day dream since the beginning?

[Hegel]

Jesus F. Christ; who's the author of that literary abomination?

 

[Irenaeus II]

Jesus F. Christ; who's the author of that literary abomination?

 

[hell bovine]

(they might've changed it with patches)

Yep. Now it gives a massive +50 with the hardened upgrade adding +25 on top of that.

Even +75 deflection alone is not going to cut it. I've ended up with 140+ deflection on both my melee puppets. A wizard would still need other spells (or maybe the deflection skills) to achieve that number, and choosing either would be a waste.

But I am actually asking about the lore explaining how the firearms were invented. I don't recall anything about technological research anywhere (once again, it's possible that I've simply missed it).

Assumingly divinely inspired by Magran.

Divinely inspired or not (though that golem god of crafting is a more fitting choice, if you're looking for a "god did it" explanation), you still need research and manufacturing, even if it were done by clergy. I don't recall any from the actual game; all those guns are just there, with not much thought given as to why and how..

Arcanum was a world on the brink of an industrial revolution, driven by scientific research. It wasn't just firearms; it was chemistry, medicine, engineering etc. that was competing with magic. That's what made playing a tech character so fun, even though magic was overpowered and combat was boring. By comparison, Pillar's had a very interesting take on the "science" of animancy, but it never went anywhere with it. Same with the god-bomb; the equivalent of nuclear warfare, and no one cares to try to replicate that firepower?

 

[Tigranes]

What's happening in this topic? wildly deviates in topic every few posts.

Generally speaking, I didn't have super high expectations for any Kickstarter. I expected a mediocre game with its heart in the right place that inspires better ones to follow for WL2. I broadly got that. I expect a zanier game with a lot more to love but also with some clear disappointments or screwups in TTON. I expected a shittily written but creative and charming, and overall decent game for D:OS; it ends up being better than I thought. I expected a very well written but relatively bare-bones game as a great foundation for a franchise in POE. I got that - though the writing was surprisingly not up to Obsidian expectations.

As for the class stuff, there are some things that are indisputable - e.g. nobody in their right mind would argue that encounter set pieces are designed superbly in POE. One thing POE does really well is allow many of its classes to develop in several different ways that can all be effective.

hell bovine +75 deflectioncan make you very-hard-to-hit in Act 1 POTD, and it's relatively easy to top it up with a couple of spells (I think it's Llellywyn''s Mirror Image or something, etc) to get up to 150+ for periods in late game. I don't think a wizard can never cast any other spells and just swing swords (though that, I'd say, is more due to accuracy), but it can certainly take some hits to the face right up to the endgame.

I would say the most interesting parts of POE's setting were underused in POE1, and I don't mind that so much, I just expect to see them do a better job in POE2 now that they know what they have. Funnily enough, the gods thing, which in other cases I'd welcome as a cool story point, ended up being a blander wash when the animancy stuff could have hosted a much more interesting narrative about what happens to a world that is undergoing irrevocable change. What I woudn't give for a thematic successor to Arcanum in POE's world, perhaps set in somewhere like the Vailian Republics or Rauatai. But then, maybe it's a mistake to think on epic terms. I liked a lot of Pillars' writing, but often it was disjointed; the good bits tended to come in small unexpected pockets, utilising an underexpressed and flat style, and the bits wherethe epic get cranked up tended to go subpar (i.e. everything Thaos). If we were talking cinematography, POE is at its best doing the long cuts with the camera behind the trees, watching a lonely figure gaze out onto the horizon, and at its worst when it's doing frenetic action jump cuts following a car chase.

 

[hell bovine]

What's happening in this topic? wildly deviates in topic every few posts.

hell bovine +75 deflectioncan make you very-hard-to-hit in Act 1 POTD, and it's relatively easy to top it up with a couple of spells (I think it's Llellywyn''s Mirror Image or something, etc) to get up to 150+ for periods in late game. I don't think a wizard can never cast any other spells and just swing swords (though that, I'd say, is more due to accuracy), but it can certainly take some hits to the face right up to the endgame.

I would say the most interesting parts of POE's setting were underused in POE1, and I don't mind that so much, I just expect to see them do a better job in POE2 now that they know what they have. Funnily enough, the gods thing, which in other cases I'd welcome as a cool story point, ended up being a blander wash when the animancy stuff could have hosted a much more interesting narrative about what happens to a world that is undergoing irrevocable change. What I woudn't give for a thematic successor to Arcanum in POE's world, perhaps set in somewhere like the Vailian Republics or Rauatai. But then, maybe it's a mistake to think on epic terms. I liked a lot of Pillars' writing, but often it was disjointed; the good bits tended to come in small unexpected pockets, utilising an underexpressed and flat style, and the bits wherethe epic get cranked up tended to go subpar (i.e. everything Thaos). If we were talking cinematography, POE is at its best doing the long cuts with the camera behind the trees, watching a lonely figure gaze out onto the horizon, and at its worst when it's doing frenetic action jump cuts following a car chase.

Thing is, late game I could get 150+ deflection on my melee puppets all of the time, provided my chanter used the deflection chant; it just wasn't needed. Compare to that to the relatively short duration of the wizard's spells, that you'd need to recast all the time to be able to keep that up. You can do it, but what's the point? Why would the arcane veil be the mystical explanation for the invention of guns, if you can get same defences, only long lasting, without it?

I agree that PoE would be a better game, if they got rid of Thaos and everything related to the "here is the bad guy, find him and kill him to save the world" trope. It's like watching a movie with a very promising trailer and an interesting beginning, that somewhere around the middle loses it's plot and tries to pursue too many directions at once.

I'm pretty sure Magran killed everyone who made the nuclear bomb, except for Durance because he became a wandering hobo and got lucky? Like everyone else who worked on the Godhammer is dead...

Yeah, but that wouldn't have stopped any scientists from trying to replicate it. The proof of principle experiment has shown that it was possible, after all.
EDIT: In fact, that would have made for an interesting quest line: a bunch of disillusioned heretics (or would that be atheists-in-the-making? :D) decides to get rid of the rest of the gods, and are trying to find out as much as possible about the bomb. And you are traveling with the sole survivor...

 

[Ninjerk]

adra stopped them from replicating it

 

[hell bovine]

adra stopped them from replicating it

That's probably the part of lore that I've missed.
But still, I don't think anything would have stopped research into firearms after it was shown to be possible to blow up a god, unless the entire history of that event would get divinely erased. Scientists have the survival instinct of a bunch of lemmings, combined with blatant disregard for common sense and decency. That's what made Arcanum fun.

 

[Arkeus]

Thing is, late game I could get 150+ deflection on my melee puppets all of the time, provided my chanter used the deflection chant; it just wasn't needed. Compare to that to the relatively short duration of the wizard's spells, that you'd need to recast all the time to be able to keep that up. You can do it, but what's the point? Why would the arcane veil be the mystical explanation for the invention of guns, if you can get same defences, only long lasting, without it?

Because anyone can attack with guns and penetrate the Arcane Veil, while high-level people are rare. Arcane Veil, itself, is a 'starter' wizard skill, so even the lowest of wizards would have been protected before guns.

 

[Ninjerk]

adra stopped them from replicating it

That's probably the part of lore that I've missed.
But still, I don't think anything would have stopped research into firearms after it was shown to be possible to blow up a god, unless the entire history of that event would get divinely erased. Scientists have the survival instinct of a bunch of lemmings, combined with blatant disregard for common sense and decency. That's what made Arcanum fun.

I think it's a mistake to conflate "IRL scientists" with PoE's budding science--they went out of their way to insert the kind of quackery you don't see much of in the real world sciences before sanitariums/phrenology/Mengele/etc (being that the sciences weren't really codified at that time in a way that really resembles modern science).

 

[hell bovine]

Isn't that literally what Durance's quest in Pillars 2 will be? That's literally what his entire arc sets up.

Considering that Durance was written by Avellone, who has quit the company, I don't expect much.

Because anyone can attack with guns and penetrate the Arcane Veil, while high-level people are rare. Arcane Veil, itself, is a 'starter' wizard skill, so even the lowest of wizards would have been protected before guns.

And that would be an explanation if it was indeed very difficult to kill a wizard without guns in Pillar's. But it isn't. It's like they are trying to retroactively achieve what BG2 did with arcane spellcasters, in which sorcerers were walking gods towards endgame, which would make the necessity of guns believable. But Pillar's is simply too balanced in that aspect and wizard's are nowhere near that power.

I think it's a mistake to conflate "IRL scientists" with PoE's budding science--they went out of their way to insert the kind of quackery you don't see much of in the real world sciences before sanitariums/phrenology/Mengele/etc (being that the sciences weren't really codified at that time in a way that really resembles modern science).

If you look at the history of science, e.g. alchemy and the search for the philosopher's stone, it's exactly like that. The curiosity and disregard for own safety (in face of religious persecution, for example) was what has driven scientific research forward at all times, regardless of how much of it was real science, and how much magical nonsense. That part of Pillar's lore in regards to animancy was actually well done.

 

[Tigranes]

All good points. How set in stone is it that guns developed exclusively due to wizards, though? In POE's world there are many different reasons why the inventionwould have been useful. Which fits how real life history works - there's a celebrated causality or reason, but on closer inspection it turns out to be just one spectacular out of many big reasons.

 

[Delterius]

All good points. How set in stone is it that guns developed exclusively due to wizards, though?

Somewhat.

Durance at least outright says that blackpowder firearms were a divine inspiration to balance the battlefield against Wizards. To elevate the common man against those all powerful Slicken spammers.

However, if Aloth is present that same dialogue also includes special barbs against Aedyr. Though we don't know much about the Aedyran Empire, we do know that it is a traditionalist country which clings to orthodox powers, such as the cult of Woedica, as well as Wizardry in the face of Animancy. In fact, Aloth's backstory suggest that Wizardry might be a very widespread practice in Aedyr, perhaps even symbollic of their warfare and nobility.

So 'common man' and 'wizards' in Durance's interpretation of things may just be proxies for the War of Independence, and the priest, being a fanatic cultist and an exalted nationalist who hates Aedyr, is seeing things that aren't really there.

Furthemore, the Vailians and Rauatai both seem more experienced with blackpowder and it is unlikely that these two nations plus Dyrwood are all especially dedicated to Magran.

 

[hell bovine]

All good points. How set in stone is it that guns developed exclusively due to wizards, though? In POE's world there are many different reasons why the inventionwould have been useful. Which fits how real life history works - there's a celebrated causality or reason, but on closer inspection it turns out to be just one spectacular out of many big reasons.

I agree, but it's not the introduction of firearms in a fantasy world that is the problem, in my opinion, but rather that those guns are simply "there". They have a golem god of crafting, who works for the goddess of war, so why not make his clergy the leaders in military research, for example? It's another missed opportunity, just like with animancy.

PoE has plenty of good ideas, but instead of developing them, they focused on a boring villain and his boring evil story.

 

[Athelas]

Isn't the explanation that, like plate mail, fire arms existed in the historical period the setting is modeled after?

Of course, you could see that as simply creative inertia.

 

[Delterius]

Isn't the explanation that, like plate mail, fire arms existed in the historical period the setting is modeled after?

Of course, you could see that as simply creative inertia.

I'm pretty sure even the adoption of the crossbow caused a downsizing of armors in Europe -- hell, it was called a weapon of mass destruction at one point. Guns are even worse in that regard.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Not the armor discussion again

Yes, that's plate armor.

 

[Delterius]

A typical World War soldier.

 

[Irenaeus II]

If you have the right weapon, you don't even need armor.

 

[Delterius]

Another option is to make better armor.

I'm just saying that a better argument against 'realism' in this case is that nobody fucking cares.

 

[Brancaleone]

Guns exist in PoE because Obsidian wanted to pass PoE as "definitely not another generic fantasy setting with a pseudo-Medieval patina".
Problem is, fixing the 'generic' bit would require a lot of work and talent, and it would risk alienating casuals.
So they opt for a 'pseudo-Reinassance' patina instead of the pseudo-Medieval one.
Problem is, even that would require a fair bit of work in order to be conveyed through elements from the depiction of society, politics, aesthetics, etc. AND again it would risk alienating casuals.
So they take what they consider a distinctive element of that Reinassance patina, i.e. firearms, and they slap it onto their mostly Medievally colored generic fantasy setting. Then they slap on top of the existing lore an additional bit that is supposed to justify the existence of firearms, although it finds no evidence in the actual gameplay nor has consistent premises in the setting, and call it a day.
This way everybody is happy: Obsidian saves a lot of work and cuts a lot of corners as usual, has more legal breathing room for nailing down their IP, can PR that theirs is not the usual run-of-the-mill generic fantasy bla bla; and the casuals don't feel alienated (it's the usual generic fantasy setting), find the guns cool but confortable (they play like glorified bows etc. etc.) and lore and gameplay can keep existingly without bothering about each other.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Not much of a problem, IMO. I just wished there were more cannons of many sizes and types around.

 

[Catfish]

Arcanum, the game where guns are supposed to be outclassing everything else, are actually mechanically worse than everything else. Organically working its lore into the world. Uh huh.

I'm just saying that guns and the whole industrial revolution thing made sense in that world, their presence was not disjointed from the actual game, unlike PoE, where in order for guns (and, for that matter, a lot of other stuff) to be justified, a regular barrage of expository text was in order.

 

[Roguey]

I'm just saying that guns and the whole industrial revolution thing made sense in that world, their presence was not disjointed from the actual game, unlike PoE, where in order for guns (and, for that matter, a lot of other stuff) to be justified, a regular barrage of expository text was in order.

In Arcanum there's a NPC who outright tells you that the speed of technological advancement has been artificially sped up.

 

[Catfish]

I'm just saying that guns and the whole industrial revolution thing made sense in that world, their presence was not disjointed from the actual game, unlike PoE, where in order for guns (and, for that matter, a lot of other stuff) to be justified, a regular barrage of expository text was in order.

In Arcanum there's a NPC who outright tells you that the speed of technological advancement has been artificially sped up.

Not sure what you are referring to, but...

Spoiler

if this is in reference to the steam engine stolen from the dwarves by the industrialist guy (don't remember his name, unfortunately) - I'm not sure how this is a problem. On the contrary, it is a pretty good plot point and a legitimate justification for the events that transpire in the game and for the general state of the world

 

[razvedchiki]

if one reads carefully the dialogues,ie had actually played the game,he would understand that dwarves were technologicaly much superior to the other races.
bates says to the player that dwarfs didnt use the steam engine they had made, cause they prefered manual labor.
the exiled king loghaire says again to the player that during the dwarf civil wars that happened centuries ago they posesed war machines,much like the automatons of the game.

stuff was already been invented and used,were organicaly part of the lore.