Squeenix Spoony plays Final Fantasy XIII

[aris]

The problem with FFXIII isn't so much the plot, which I thought was servicable, if not great. The problem are the characters, especially Vanille, who is frankly quite jarring.

 

[Weierstraß]

The absolutely biggest problem with the game is pacing.

This do think this third part is an improvement over the previous two.

 

[aris]

Pacing and characters. You can't possibly say that most of the characters in FFXIII are well written.

 

[felipepepe]

Biggest problem to me are the very linear maps and how shitty the summons are... everything else didn't bothered me much.

 

[aris]

I don't think corridor experiences are that damaging, it worked well enough in FFX. And characters and pacing is not the only problem, that's just with the story. When it comes to gameplay, no random combats is good, the combat itself... not so much. At least I didn't like it.

 

[GarfunkeL]

I don't think corridor experiences are that damaging, it worked well enough in FFX.

Thanks for reminding me why you're such a colossal faggot. No, they didn't work "well enough" in FFX.

 

[aris]

They sure did!

 

[DraQ]

I don't think corridor experiences are that damaging

Thanks for reminding me why you're such a colossal faggot.

 

[aris]

DraQ! My old friend! Why are you so mean to me?

 

[evdk]

DraQ! My old friend! Why are you so mean to me?

you're such a colossal faggot

 

[aris]

I don't even know who that one is or why he/she/it has a grudge against me, DraQ however brofisted it, and he is such a dear friend of mine. It made me sad

 

[Broseph]

I don't even know who that one is or why he/she/it has a grudge against me, DraQ however brofisted it, and he is such a dear friend of mine. It made me sad

:youreafag:

 

[Mrowak]

Spoony is just trying too hard... yeah, they argue a lot in FF XIII about what's their focus, because that's the plot of the game; instead of going "you must save teh world, kill that bad man", the plot revolves around their despair in not knowing what to do, that drives them in a retarded chase, splits them apart, and them brings them back when they decide to fight back against their imposed quest.

The guy is doing a massive review of one of the most controversial jRPGs around, yet all I get from him is "I don't like/understand the plot, wish this was a cookie-cutter jRPG".

Actually I would argue that Spoony guy has a point, but cannot varbalize it for the love of God. From the very beginning Spoony keeps whining about how "things do not make sense". That's a valid complaint but supporting that with the observation that the game does not spell everything for you is barking the wrong tree. Starting the game from a strong note and letting the player learn the ropes can be a powerful narrating device that made games such as Planescape: Torment, what they are.

The keyword to our problem is: contrived. Things happen not because they follow causality, but because they are so convenient for the writer. The thing is, as a result there are humongous gaps in logic. Practically every aspect of the plot happens and gameplay (merged together into storytelling) is a ludicurous utter nonsense that cannot, have not and shall not make any sense whatsoever. Why can Snow defeat humongous military mech with bare hands? Why is Lighting bulletproof? Why do heroes do what they do (and above all, how do they aim to succeed)? How did they survive a plane-crash?

In a competently written medium the author would have taken advantage of these questions to weave a captivating tale. These would have been opportunities for storytelling. But in FF XIII they are just ignored, handwaved by the authors, in consequence, becoming the very thing which undermines the plot by negating the drama. Seriously, why should I care if the heroes were just shot from the sky in a overblown CG, if a scene later the tensions is reduced to 0%, because everyone not only survived but didn't even had their hair messed up (ok, I can buy it, but how??)? Or why should I be impressed by a beautfiully animated towering robot, when all it takes to defeat it is mashing X? Above all, why should I give a flying fuck about the mawkish plot, when all it takes to subvert causality is writer stomping his leg, a pulling a "plot-twist" out of his ass, preferably in the form of the cutscene, (because - the heresy! - who would use gameplay used to tell the story? Perish the thought!).

This level of contrivance demolishes suspension of disbelief. Stuff just doesn't make sense. And unfortunately making sense it the core requirement for any work of any Fantasy, even Final. It would be fine if Square aimed for a self-parody, but they expect you to take this shit seriously.

Not that FFXIII is the only one in the series suffering from the problem (especially after FFVII), but after at least a marginal step in the right direction (FFXII) to fall so low again, without any hope of the redemption on the horizon is just saddening.

 

[felipepepe]

Bro, is a vidya-game... how many times you took a bullet or spear thust to the head in Fallout? Goddamit, you could get a direct hit from a burst of shotgun fire IN THE EYE without wearing helmet and survive! So now Fallout is to contrived to be a good game?

A single well-shot bullet could logically defeat 2/3 of every super-hero out there, Batman being the most evident case of all (in before bullet-proof mask). Guess now every super-hero story is bullshit cause REALISM. Not to mention RPGs... "bro, how did you single-handly destroyed a goblin army attacking the town?" "Easy, I'm a level 18 fighter". Yeah, that's tottaly different from Final Fantasy.

And that's my issue with Spoony, for all the flaws in the game, he is clearly nit-picking on shit that he would fly over or even praise as AWESOME in other games or media...

 

[tuluse]

Here's the difference, the rules of the universe of Fallout are the same in game as they are in cutscenes, such as Fallout has cutscenes.

 

[Mrowak]

Bro, is a vidya-game... how many times you took a bullet or spear thust to the head in Fallout? Goddamit, you could get a direct hit from a burst of shotgun fire IN THE EYE without wearing helmet and survive! So now Fallout is to contrived to be a good game?

That was just one of many, MANY things wrong there.

Look, I am only saying that too much of contrived shit is self-defeating. Sure, I can look the other way when two or three concessions have to be made for gamplay reasons (although I would prefer they weren't there)... But too much of these and it all falls apart (btw, what exactly is the *gameplay* consideration for making firearms in enemy's hands useless in FFXIII?... ). It becomes uninteresting and predictable. Above all it generates loopholes in the plot, and is a mark of ineffective storytelling. When things just work well for the characters, without any effort on their part, it murders any suspense the story could potentially generate.

FFXIII has an abysmal plot that cannot be saved for the love of Pete, especially with the poor storytelling they are doing.

 

[Delterius]

And that's my issue with Spoony, for all the flaws in the game, he is clearly nit-picking on shit that he would fly over or even praise as AWESOME in other games or media...

You're both right. Spoony isn't, after all, doing game critique.

But there are two things that shouldn't be forgotten. For one the scale and the consistency of the handwaving - in FFXIII you're not merely being shot on the face (a tough but actually survivable experience), you are fighting giant mecha and falling from the sky. Not once but all the time.

But I think there's something else, something that I won't be able to verbalize well right now. The increased realism in the presentation through the FF series (MOAR POLYGONS + the more realistic looking Real Time combat) making these more fantastical situations harder to ignore, at least without explanation.

 

[tuluse]

It doesn't even need to be explained, but it needs to be consistent. If characters can jump off 50 story buildings, while being shot in the face, and fighting a giant mech whenever they want with no ill effects, that's fine but then the world needs to be designed with this in mind. That would mean people wouldn't be scared of guns or giant mechs for one thing.

 

[felipepepe]

But I think there's something else, something that I won't be able to verbalize well right now. The increased realism in the presentation through the FF series (MOAR POLYGONS + the more realistic looking Real Time combat) making these more fantastical situations harder to ignore, at least without explanation.

Yes, that is the greatest issue. Most RPG system would look absolutly retarded in full blown 3D, with people surviving a critical hit from a giant's axe in the head, or only taking 1d3 damage from a arrow or dagger stab in the chest...

Here's the difference, the rules of the universe of Fallout are the same in game as they are in cutscenes, such as Fallout has cutscenes.

Really? How many times you drank water in the entire game, even though the whole purpose of the game is finding a water chip to avoid dying from desidratation? At least not-dying-after-falling-from-high-places is not the central point of the game. Of course, I'm being retarded and nit-picking, but that's also what Spoony is doing.

It doesn't even need to be explained, but it needs to be consistent. If characters can jump off 50 story buildings, while being shot in the face, and fighting a giant mech whenever they want with no ill effects, that's fine but then the world needs to be designed with this in mind. That would mean people wouldn't be scared of guns or giant mechs for one thing.

Then is a wonder that there is NPCs in every RPG scarred of rats, since any Lv 01 aventurer can kill them... do you think everyone in Faerun also kills a bandit ambush or goblin tribe on their way for a fetch quest?

 

[tuluse]

Then is a wonder that there is NPCs in every RPG scarred of rats, since any Lv 01 aventurer can kill them... do you think everyone in Faerun also kills a bandit ambush or goblin tribe on their way for a fetch quest?

The only RPG I can think of where rats are treated as anything other than a nuisance is PST.

 

[Mrowak]

It doesn't even need to be explained, but it needs to be consistent. If characters can jump off 50 story buildings, while being shot in the face, and fighting a giant mech whenever they want with no ill effects, that's fine but then the world needs to be designed with this in mind. That would mean people wouldn't be scared of guns or giant mechs for one thing.

Or there would actually be weapons that did any damage. It would be cool if the size and equipment of those things actually meant something - have some purpose and function in the world with good grounds for it. If you place a robot, because "oh, it looks so kewl", and then handwave its function and purpose without any reason you are failing at storytelling.

It would be awesome if the towering robots were uber-sophisticated killing machines with lethal machine guns, rockets and shits that could make you into a mincemeat in seconds. Only by using clever strategies and taking advantage of your surroundings can you hope to defeat or *get away* from them. This facility is delegated to the player. In such scenario the enemies and heroes alike are presentent consistently: enemies are feared in the gameworld, *because* they are a lethal threat; our heroes are the heroes because they have what it takes to face the monstrosity and live to tell the tale (which includes: equipment [no, not bare fists and swords in a gunfight] and know-how [character progression skills]). Additionally the gameplay challenge the encounter presents (a.k.a. "drama") creates the feeling of tension supported by satisfaction and sense of actual accomplishment upon successful resolution. These reinforce what the game tells you directly about all characters and events, consequently supporting the entirety of gameworld, and above all, the goddamn plot!

But instead, we get sensational bullshit: "look how tough and scary this robot looks - now mash X to win". I really cannot think what effect the devs hoped to achieve in players.

 

[Rahdulan]

It doesn't even need to be explained, but it needs to be consistent. If characters can jump off 50 story buildings, while being shot in the face, and fighting a giant mech whenever they want with no ill effects, that's fine but then the world needs to be designed with this in mind. That would mean people wouldn't be scared of guns or giant mechs for one thing.

Or there would actually be weapons that did any damage. It would be cool if the size and equipment of those things actually meant something - have some purpose and function in the world with good grounds for it. If you place a robot, because "oh, it looks so kewl", and then handwave its function and purpose without any reason you are failing at storytelling.

It would be awesome if the towering robots were uber-sophisticated killing machines with lethal machine guns, rockets and shits that could make you into a mincemeat in seconds. Only by using clever strategies and taking advantage of your surroundings can you hope to defeat or *get away* from them. This facility is delegated to the player. In such scenario the enemies and heroes alike are presentent consistently: enemies are feared in the gameworld, *because* they are a lethal threat; our heroes are the heroes because they have what it takes to face the monstrosity and live to tell the tale (which includes: equipment [no, not bare fists and swords in a gunfight] and know-how [character progression skills]). Additionally the gameplay challenge the encounter presents (a.k.a. "drama") creates the feeling of tension supported by satisfaction and sense of actual accomplishment upon successful resolution. These reinforce what the game tells you directly about all characters and events, consequently supporting the entirety of gameworld, and above all, the goddamn plot!

But instead, we get sensational bullshit: "look how tough and scary this robot looks - now mash X to win". I really cannot think what effect the devs hoped to achieve in players.

Problem with this lies in the disconnect between gameplay and narrative which, as Delterius pointed out earlier, is all the more obvious when visual presentation advances more and more towards the realistic side of things. Such lapses in coherence and absence of SOME kind of in-setting believability cannot be tolerated or hand-waved anymore when the entire presentation is aspiring to be as realistic as possible, as mentioned by Spoony's own reference to Sabin vs Phantom Train and the famous Supplex scene which would look absolutely ridiculous if done in FF13's graphics. It's also what happens when you put your game designers and writers into separate rooms and don't let them talk to each other during the development - wasted cutscene air time and resorting to cue cards to explain all the relevant information.

I just feel like I beat that poor horse real good.

 

[Mrowak]

But I think there's something else, something that I won't be able to verbalize well right now. The increased realism in the presentation through the FF series (MOAR POLYGONS + the more realistic looking Real Time combat) making these more fantastical situations harder to ignore, at least without explanation.

Yes, that is the greatest issue. Most RPG system would look absolutly retarded in full blown 3D, with people surviving a critical hit from a giant's axe in the head, or only taking 1d3 damage from a arrow or dagger stab in the chest...

Nah, not really. I mean this is ludicurous but FFXIII doesn't suffer because it uses 3D presentation. It's because *how* it uses it.

Here's the difference, the rules of the universe of Fallout are the same in game as they are in cutscenes, such as Fallout has cutscenes.

Really? How many times you drank water in the entire game, even though the whole purpose of the game is finding a water chip to avoid dying from desidratation? At least not-dying-after-falling-from-high-places is not the central point of the game. Of course, I'm being retarded and nit-picking, but that's also what Spoony is doing.[/quote]

That's not really issue of consistency, you've mentioned, at least not the immediate one. For Fallout to reach FFXIII level of nonsense the water chip would have to be completely useless i.e. you finding it didn't change how the gameplay flowed at all. Hard to do with a major McGuffin.

Besides, you are missing the point falling from heights. Characters surviving falls from huge heights reeks of pointless sensationalism. It looks awesome and all, but is essentially a gimmick without any value outside of cutscenes. It doesn't even create any drama, because a) heroes are *always* unaffected by it b) heroes just survive huge falls and crashes, without any effort on their part (the screen shifts to black, and BAM!, they are all fine and dandy).

To reverse the earlier comparison in order

It doesn't even need to be explained, but it needs to be consistent. If characters can jump off 50 story buildings, while being shot in the face, and fighting a giant mech whenever they want with no ill effects, that's fine but then the world needs to be designed with this in mind. That would mean people wouldn't be scared of guns or giant mechs for one thing.

Then is a wonder that there is NPCs in every RPG scarred of rats, since any Lv 01 aventurer can kill them... do you think everyone in Faerun also kills a bandit ambush or goblin tribe on their way for a fetch quest?[/quote]

Wow, you've gone a huge leap here. I mean there's a huge difference between this rodent:

and military-grade equipment:

I mean, I can be scared of both things, but if I were to face either, I would have taken the former any day if only because bringing a sword to a gunfight with the latter ain't going to cut it.

 

[J1M]

I remember back when my roommate bought FFXIII. Over the course of a few days I watched him play 3 hours of it. Even 16 hours in he wasn't able to explain who what or why things were happening in the plot. I thought maybe he was stupid, but it was also from japan. I'm glad spoony did this video. Now I know my roommate was not retarded.

The constantly falling from high places without damage thing is just japan misunderstanding the "ledge slightly higher than you can jump" mechanic used in western games to push the player forward.

 

[DeepOcean]

Bro, is a vidya-game... how many times you took a bullet or spear thust to the head in Fallout? Goddamit, you could get a direct hit from a burst of shotgun fire IN THE EYE without wearing helmet and survive! So now Fallout is to contrived to be a good game?

A single well-shot bullet could logically defeat 2/3 of every super-hero out there, Batman being the most evident case of all (in before bullet-proof mask). Guess now every super-hero story is bullshit cause REALISM. Not to mention RPGs... "bro, how did you single-handly destroyed a goblin army attacking the town?" "Easy, I'm a level 18 fighter". Yeah, that's tottaly different from Final Fantasy.

And that's my issue with Spoony, for all the flaws in the game, he is clearly nit-picking on shit that he would fly over or even praise as AWESOME in other games or media...

If Fallout had cutscenes where characters can take spears and bullets in the face without dying and there isn't a reasonable explanation to why this happens it would be as awful as Final Fantasy XIII in terms of setting. Fantasy is =/= Shit! Everything is permited! Why not! Final Fantasy writers were just lazy and didn't wanted to waste time explaining the rules of the world they created because: Hey! It is pretty! Nobody cares, it is a video game! So, a shitty plot is completely justifiable. Spoony wastes alot of time nitpicking, but on this video in particular he has a point about the shity plot, he complains alot about the linearity and about the battle system too on his Final Fantasy XIII videos.