Squeenix Spoony plays Final Fantasy XIII

[Mrowak]

It doesn't even need to be explained, but it needs to be consistent. If characters can jump off 50 story buildings, while being shot in the face, and fighting a giant mech whenever they want with no ill effects, that's fine but then the world needs to be designed with this in mind. That would mean people wouldn't be scared of guns or giant mechs for one thing.

Or there would actually be weapons that did any damage. It would be cool if the size and equipment of those things actually meant something - have some purpose and function in the world with good grounds for it. If you place a robot, because "oh, it looks so kewl", and then handwave its function and purpose without any reason you are failing at storytelling.

It would be awesome if the towering robots were uber-sophisticated killing machines with lethal machine guns, rockets and shits that could make you into a mincemeat in seconds. Only by using clever strategies and taking advantage of your surroundings can you hope to defeat or *get away* from them. This facility is delegated to the player. In such scenario the enemies and heroes alike are presentent consistently: enemies are feared in the gameworld, *because* they are a lethal threat; our heroes are the heroes because they have what it takes to face the monstrosity and live to tell the tale (which includes: equipment [no, not bare fists and swords in a gunfight] and know-how [character progression skills]). Additionally the gameplay challenge the encounter presents (a.k.a. "drama") creates the feeling of tension supported by satisfaction and sense of actual accomplishment upon successful resolution. These reinforce what the game tells you directly about all characters and events, consequently supporting the entirety of gameworld, and above all, the goddamn plot!

But instead, we get sensational bullshit: "look how tough and scary this robot looks - now mash X to win". I really cannot think what effect the devs hoped to achieve in players.

Problem with this lies in the disconnect between gameplay and narrative which, as Delterius pointed out earlier, is all the more obvious when visual presentation advances more and more towards the realistic side of things.

That may be true, but only to a degree... If the presentation is the problem then your answer is provide believeable character/enemy models. It's that simple. Or you can change the entire encounter design, as I pointed out earlier. Or the tone of the game.

Such lapses in coherence and absence of SOME kind of in-setting believability cannot be tolerated or hand-waved anymore when the entire presentation is aspiring to be as realistic as possible, as mentioned by Spoony's own reference to Sabin vs Phantom Train and the famous Supplex scene which would look absolutely ridiculous if done in FF13's graphics.

I don't think realism is the right word. It's fantasy we are dealing with now... Let's stick to consistency. FFVI is from the very start larger than life. There is some true to the claim that the art style reinforces this approach, whereas the style in FFXIII, with maintained proportions and down-to-earth presentation of humans does not fit the overall theme they were shooting for.

It's also what happens when you put your game designers and writers into separate rooms and don't let them talk to each other during the development - wasted cutscene air time and resorting to cue cards to explain all the relevant information.

I just feel like I beat that poor horse real good.

The problem I see is that developers cannot transcribe story into gameplay - they do not have any idea how to do it.

 

[felipepepe]

If Fallout had cutscenes where characters can take spears and bullets in the face without dying and there isn't a reasonable explanation to why this happens it would be as awful as Final Fantasy XIII in terms of setting. Fantasy is =/= Shit! Everything is permited! Why not! Final Fantasy writers were just lazy and didn't wanted to waste time explaining the rules of the world they created because: Hey! It is pretty! Nobody cares, it is a video game! So, a shitty plot is completely justifiable.

Is not that nobody cares, just part of the "pact" people do when they sit down to play a game, watch a movie or whatever... people don't complain that no one ever goes to the bathroom, that is impossible to walk trhough a city like batman or spiderman do, that henchmen have the worst aim possible, that people always have last words at dramatic moments, that magic potions cure health... is all part of the show, they are a meta-reality you're used to. Westerns are used with knights slaying hordes or orcs and a dragon, japanese are used to weird dressed people punching robots... FF XIII is not the first nor the last time this happened.

Countless games have you and your party ravaging through armies without a single injury, only to see a companion/NPC die on a dramatic cutscene due one single bullet shot... and none of your HEAL/REVIVE items in the backpack will do a thing now. Aeris should be revivable with a Phoenix Down just like Hakunin with a Super-Stimpack or any other NPC in Fantasy RPGs with revive spells...

And Mrowak, the point of the rat was not that rats are the same as giant robots of death, but it was just to show how ridiculous was tuluse saying that since the heroes of the game could beat giant robots, so could the rest of the population...

 

[Mrowak]

If Fallout had cutscenes where characters can take spears and bullets in the face without dying and there isn't a reasonable explanation to why this happens it would be as awful as Final Fantasy XIII in terms of setting. Fantasy is =/= Shit! Everything is permited! Why not! Final Fantasy writers were just lazy and didn't wanted to waste time explaining the rules of the world they created because: Hey! It is pretty! Nobody cares, it is a video game! So, a shitty plot is completely justifiable.

Is not that nobody cares, just part of the "pact" people do when they sit down to play a game, watch a movie or whatever... people don't complain that no one ever goes to the bathroom, that is impossible to walk trhough a city like batman or spiderman do, that henchmen have the worst aim possible, that people always have last words at dramatic moments, that magic potions cure health... is all part of the show, they are a meta-reality you're used to. Westerns are used with knights slaying hordes or orcs and a dragon, japanese are used to weird dressed people punching robots... FF XIII is not the first nor the last time this happened.

Countless games have you and your party ravaging through armies without a single injury, only to see a companion/NPC die on a dramatic cutscene due one single bullet shot... and none of your HEAL/REVIVE items in the backpack will do a thing now.

Which is a very, VERY bad storytelling. It's akin to watching a movie, when suddenly, during the most exciting scene the screen goes all black and you get text (like in old films) which can be summarized: "and the heroe defeated the dragon". Cue next scene.

And Mrowak, the point of the rat was not that rats are the same as giant robots of death, but it was just to show how ridiculous was tuluse saying that since the heroes of the game could beat giant robots, so could the rest of the population...

I think the issue was more with the manner they did beat the robots. You know, making no effort whatsoever, be it intellectual or physical - contextually any random shmuck could do what they did. But they are special... because the narrative *tells* (as opposed to *show*) us they are the heroes... Yeah... that's pretty much a textbook example of contrived storytelling.

 

[felipepepe]

Yes, it's a compromise. But I'm not defending that FFXIII story is perfect, just that it doesn't do worse than most games out there anyway. Pretty much every jRPG features some ressurection spell, and also a important NPC dying and no one doing anything about it. You could also shout to dying NPCs in FPS to get into cover and regen... again, this is not the first nor the last game with such writting, so why bash it like that with bigger problems present? Cause Spoony is lame and goes for the easiest possible joke.

 

[Mrowak]

Yes, it's a compromise. But I'm not defending that FFXIII story is perfect, just that it doesn't do worse than most games out there anyway.

Well, I'd argue about that, but then again we have Mass Effect 2 - that would be a serious AAA contender.

Pretty much every jRPG features some ressurection spell, and also a important NPC dying and no one doing anything about it.

You've begun the journey of self-discovery. Soon you will realise why jRPGs are a substandard genere.

You could also shout to dying NPCs in FPS to get into cover and regen... again, this is not the first nor the last game with such writting, so why bash it like that with bigger problems present? Cause Spoony is lame and goes for the easiest possible joke.

The problem is the things you mention merely make up huge pile of turd whose name is "contrived" a.k.a. lazy storytelling.

I call it: FFXIII has the worst storytelling in ALL FF games.

And Spoony? I don't like the guy, but he has a point. Spoony is right about the game, but he could not argue why even if his life depended on it.

 

[RK47]

Hey at least someone died in ME2's cutscenes.

 

[felipepepe]

I call it: FFXIII has the worst storytelling in ALL FF games.

...yeah.

 

[aris]

Here's hoping that FFXV will have a better story, though the chances are slim. From the tech demo it kind of looked like call of final fantasy, but there was aspects of that setting that has a lot of potential.

 

[DeepOcean]

Yes, it's a compromise. But I'm not defending that FFXIII story is perfect, just that it doesn't do worse than most games out there anyway. Pretty much every jRPG features some ressurection spell, and also a important NPC dying and no one doing anything about it. You could also shout to dying NPCs in FPS to get into cover and regen... again, this is not the first nor the last game with such writting, so why bash it like that with bigger problems present? Cause Spoony is lame and goes for the easiest possible joke.

I know that there is a need to a certain level of compromise, they shouldn't be anal and try to explain everything in detail. The problem of Final Fantasy XIII is that they tried to tell the story with alot of custscenes and a serie of things that are acceptable in gameplay, are completely ridiculous in cutscenes. Still, it cost nothing to give a power glove to that retarded guy that like to punch things or just say briefly that he have a superpower that can protect him from bullets.

 

[Delterius]

I disagree, they should explain as much as possible. This isn't a open world game where the player weaves his own story, where it makes sense for you to have to piece everything together. This is anime. If I'm going to watch people throwing words at each other for hours, then actually understanding these words is as important as the characters themselves being likeable.

 

[felipepepe]

Well, is not something new to the series... I guess since FF VI they regularly beat giant robots and military drones with machine guns, why bother now to invent a Fal'Cie forceshield or whatever?

Would be like someone trying to come up with a reason why Batman was never shot in the mouth...

 

[J1M]

Well, is not something new to the series... I guess since FF VI they regularly beat giant robots and military drones with machine guns, why bother now to invent a Fal'Cie forceshield or whatever?

Would be like someone trying to come up with a reason why Batman was never shot in the mouth...

Actually, Dark Knight Returns suggests that the yellow symbol on his chest serves the purpose of a bullseye to draw fire from his face.

 

[Tytus]

Well, is not something new to the series... I guess since FF VI they regularly beat giant robots and military drones with machine guns, why bother now to invent a Fal'Cie forceshield or whatever?

Would be like someone trying to come up with a reason why Batman was never shot in the mouth...

Actually, Dark Knight Returns suggests that the yellow symbol on his chest serves the purpose of a bullseye to draw fire from his face.

Yet, Robocop was in an exploding car and it didn't burn his face.

Spoony is a hypocrite. He showed a scene some time ago when, I think it was, Sabin suplexed a train and called it awesome. But now calls foul when people are defeating robots.

 

[Delterius]

Sabin is magical in one way or another, Snow has uniquely super charged casual wear. Not exactly the same thing.

 

[RK47]

I'm not too bothered about how the universe works like Spoony does - but I agree with his plot analysis so far. Terribad all round. And the corridor game play was pretty damning too. Why do people need a map? Previous FFs I played (6-8) has nothing like that.

 

[Tytus]

Yeah, and I being a weak man bought this piece of shit because my girlfriend at that time was a huge Final Fantasy fan, but didn't have an Xbox. I weap to this day because of this poor decision.

 

[MicoSelva]

Spoony is a hypocrite. He showed a scene some time ago when, I think it was, Sabin suplexed a train and called it awesome. But now calls foul when people are defeating robots.

Didn't Spoony explicitly compare these two in Part I or Part II of this FF XIII review, explaining why one was ok and the other wasn't?

 

[Tytus]

Spoony is a hypocrite. He showed a scene some time ago when, I think it was, Sabin suplexed a train and called it awesome. But now calls foul when people are defeating robots.

Didn't Spoony explicitly compare these two in Part I or Part II of this FF XIII review, explaining why one was ok and the other wasn't?

Hmmm....if it was the case I don't remember. The FFXIII review comes out so fast...

 

[GarfunkeL]

Spoony is a hypocrite. He showed a scene some time ago when, I think it was, Sabin suplexed a train and called it awesome. But now calls foul when people are defeating robots.

Didn't Spoony explicitly compare these two in Part I or Part II of this FF XIII review, explaining why one was ok and the other wasn't?

He did. It was due to the fidelity and "realism" of the graphics and, better characterisation. Player in VI knows that Sabin has trained for many years under the tutelage of super mystic kung-fu master and has thus mastered Ki (or whatever), as his Kung-Fu is so strong he can launch lasers from his hands. Plus it's 16-bit sprite GFX. In XIII, apparently there is nothing like that, except for the encyclopedia offhandedly mentioning that you can weave superpowers into clothing or someshit like that, which is never brought up in the actual game.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Wow, you've gone a huge leap here. I mean there's a huge difference between this rodent:

and military-grade equipment:

I mean, I can be scared of both things, but if I were to face either, I would have taken the former any day if only because bringing a sword to a gunfight with the latter ain't going to cut it.

You know, I think that by the time you're charging in with a sword against a rat that's got a shotgun pointed at you, the difference in scenarios is going mean less than the realisation that 'holy shit, the rat's packing heat'.

 

[DraQ]

famous Supplex scene which would look absolutely ridiculous if done in FF13's graphics.

Not if there was any reason to expect the character to be capable of such feat in-universe regardless of her deceptively weak look.

But I think there's something else, something that I won't be able to verbalize well right now. The increased realism in the presentation through the FF series (MOAR POLYGONS + the more realistic looking Real Time combat) making these more fantastical situations harder to ignore, at least without explanation.

Yes, that is the greatest issue. Most RPG system would look absolutly retarded in full blown 3D, with people surviving a critical hit from a giant's axe in the head, or only taking 1d3 damage from a arrow or dagger stab in the chest...

If something would look retarded in full blown 3D, then it is retarded, period.

Doesn't change the fact that combat mechanics was consistent between the PC and NPCs in FO, even though people's resistance to getting shot in the eyes was ludicrous in FO and combat was generally clunky (presumably one followed from the other - if combat wasn't so clunky, both you and NPCs would have better means to avoid getting shot in the eyes at their disposal and wouldn't require superheroic durability in order for combat to not degenerate into haphazard clusterfuck of completely random deaths).

 

[felipepepe]

Is a turn-based game, that kind of thing will ALWAYS happen. The only alternatives are some weird energy shield excuse or going insanely hardcore, where you can only take 1-2 hits, bullets or arrows before dying. As long as you have hitpoints, your game will feature someone surviving something that would be tottaly impossible, or killing monstruos enemies in retarded ways. If you gonna whine about "realism!", playing Contra should suit you better than 99% of all RPGs.

 

[tuluse]

Jagged Alliance, X-Com

 

[J1M]

Realism is not the right thing to be discussing. Nobody plays games looking for that.

Discuss immersion or something instead.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Consistency is the word you're looking for.