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Starfield Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Giskard

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(and maybe only half an hour at a time)…

…allow those that enjoy large game-worlds to take shortcuts so they can skip all the stuff they don't have time for.

That’s like saying those who enjoy skiing but can’t get themselves to the slopes. Time to hang up your poles.
If you have so little time, better to just play a round of COD or whatever. RPGs, tabletop or video game, have never been friendly to people who can’t or don’t make time for them.
That's not what I said...I posited a couple of options, but certainly not the only options...
So you think it's fine to punish people that don't have time to sink 300 hours into game that they enjoy otherwise???
Game devs need to sit down long and hard to try to determine how to make their game suit every type of player. It's the secret recipe for awesome games.
I guess that's why Bethesda's design philosophy is to give the player as many options as possible, and as much as you may or may not dislike their writing, characters and world building, they do give you the options to do mostly what you want.
Also...it is only a game after all :roll:
 

Drakortha

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I guess that's why Bethesda's design philosophy is to give the player as many options as possible, and as much as you may or may not dislike their writing, characters and world building, they do give you the options to do mostly what you want.
Also...it is only a game after all :roll:
I couldn't side with the raiders at the start of Fallout 4. I couldn't murder Preston Garvey, either. The only choices you really get to decide on is what color to paint your power armor or what weapon to use to shoot things. Wow, so many options. Thank you Todd!

I could kill anyone I didn't like in Fallout: New Vegas. There were no exceptions. I could side with or betray anyone I wanted from beginning to end. This was a big part of what defined your character.

In Starfield it will be the same type of bullshit choices they gave players in Fallout 4. Want to be a sneaky player? or a shooty player? or a settlement player? Which of our game systems do you want to distract yourself with, today? These are the choice on offer. And whatever crap, garbage, and shit story and characters they came up with they will shove down your throat in their nonsensical and retarded game world.

Because Bethesda don't make believable and immersive game worlds. They make theme parks filled with "distractions". Where "player choice" just means what ride do you want to get on today, Timmy?

bzKAcxm.jpg
 
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Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
But dont you find in ES games the silly fetch quests are just a way to gain relatively easy and quick gold and XP while you are low level and lack resources or skill? For example in DFU I have been on several of these but you gain reputation and it has helped me on levels 1-3 or so
The point Im making is they do have an advantage even if they silly and hackneyed
What you're describing is called "grinding". You're enduring a tiresome part of the game to get to the fun part. It should be the other way around. Gold and xp should come naturally from having fun playing the game, and lead you to more abilities and better gear so you can have bigger and more complicated fun.
 

Yosharian

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Fast travel in and of itself is not really an issue, how it's implemented can be an issue. The real issue is the size of the game, your personal play style and how much time you can devote to playing said game.
If you have 300 hours to sink into large open world game, then you probably can afford to spend the time walking across the map and seeking out those obscure locations and events. If however, like most people you have 'Real Life Shit' going on that means you can only spend maybe 20 or 30 hours total (and maybe only half an hour at a time) or whatever then you need something like fast travel to have a chance to see large section of the game in a reasonable time.
One answer to that is to make the games shorter...
Another is fast travel to allow those that enjoy large game-worlds to take shortcuts so they can skip all the stuff they don't have time for.
You make a good point here which cant be ignored and thats around the reality of limited time in RL and how that translates to how much time you want to or can spend on mechanics like travel in an RPG

And it differs from person to person but the Developers do have to consider that and find a balance to try to accommodate most gamers

For me the easy solution to this is to offer a way to disable fast travel completely like in Oblivion with one of the mods but my preferred option is travel hubs which provides fast travel but you still need to put in some effort
It's really not that deep guys, make a simple system like Skyrim modders have which uses the carts that already exist the game, those carts have a cost which is fairly significant, at least early game.

Weekend gamer dads can waste their money fast travelling while the true gamers experience the world
 

Yosharian

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give the player as many options as possible
The problem is that quests are designed with free fast travel in mind as a mechanic. So you travel across the world 10 times in a single quest that just involves talking to 3 NPCs

So the players who choose to play in an immersive way get a shit experience
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Zombra Hollow Knight actually does this with their Stag Stations/Tram and I'd agree that it definitely adds to the quality of fast travel in a game. That being said I don't think it's a must have. There are some games where an animation would just be weird/unfitting, or perhaps I say that because I can't picture what a good animation would be for said games.

There isn't anything wrong with travel hub based fast travel. You get to cut out the monotony of moving back and forth between cities while still preserving immersion and the pleasure of exploration. Underrail did a great job with its fast travel system to list a RPG, and they even took their fast travel a step further in the expansion and added a lot more fast travel locations. They did this while somehow managing to preserve the size of the game world, the remoteness of some locations, and keep everything setting consistent. As long as your games exploration isn't complete dogshit and has interesting locations outside of the cities/travel hub locations, you will be completely fine.
Every proper Open World game will be scaled down relative to the environment it simulates, in order to allow the player-character to directly traverse the game world in a reasonable amount of time. This avoids the self-defeating Open World design of Daggerfall, in which the player is reliant on a fast travel system to move between settlements and dungeons, without actually traversing the game world because the time required is prohibitive. A good Open World can still deliver the impression of being much larger than it actually is, even if not to the degree of the geographic area it emulates, as was the case for Morrowind.
I agree with the idea that a proper open world game should be scaled down relative to the environment it's simulating, but the fact that you cite Morrowind as an example of a game that does this is hilarious. we can add this to the list of reasons why hubs based RPGs and/or zone tranisition based RPGs are generally superior to open world RPGs. Open world games that don't give a good sense of scale is a perfect way to kill immersion. One of the few RPGs that manages to have an open world that actually feels properly massive is Kenshi.

As shown here, Kenshi has one of the largest game worlds of any game, much less RPGs, but it not once feels like it's overly large/excessive. The fact that it ranks so highly on this list despite being perfect in size is indicative of how few open world RPGs games, much less RPGs, there are that actually manage to create game worlds which do a good job of realistically scaling down the environments they are simulating.

This is why open world settings should take place on a smaller scale, such as a tiny island, or small portion of land, instead of the shit we usually have. I think the idea of traveling to multiple planets is still fine despite everything I've said however, as long as it's made clear that you can only stray so far from your ship on each of these planets to preserve the logical consistency of the setting (not that the setting will be good or there will be any logical consistency in anything else related to the setting lmfao).
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
This is why open world settings should take place on a smaller scale, such as a tiny island, or small portion of land, instead of the shit we usually have.
The massively oversized map is one of the main reasons why nuZelda is TRASH.
Meh. Kenshi's map is 2.4x the size of Breath of the Wild's map, although you can run across Kenshi's map at speeds over 25m/h, topping out at around 40-50m/h with robotic legs. Link tops out at 21m/h in BotW with haste, so that might be why traveling Kenshi's world feels better even though it's larger. Kenshi is also an absolutely gorgeous game so I'm sure that helps too.
 

BruceVC

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Zombra Hollow Knight actually does this with their Stag Stations/Tram and I'd agree that it definitely adds to the quality of fast travel in a game. That being said I don't think it's a must have. There are some games where an animation would just be weird/unfitting, or perhaps I say that because I can't picture what a good animation would be for said games.

There isn't anything wrong with travel hub based fast travel. You get to cut out the monotony of moving back and forth between cities while still preserving immersion and the pleasure of exploration. Underrail did a great job with its fast travel system to list a RPG, and they even took their fast travel a step further in the expansion and added a lot more fast travel locations. They did this while somehow managing to preserve the size of the game world, the remoteness of some locations, and keep everything setting consistent. As long as your games exploration isn't complete dogshit and has interesting locations outside of the cities/travel hub locations, you will be completely fine.
Every proper Open World game will be scaled down relative to the environment it simulates, in order to allow the player-character to directly traverse the game world in a reasonable amount of time. This avoids the self-defeating Open World design of Daggerfall, in which the player is reliant on a fast travel system to move between settlements and dungeons, without actually traversing the game world because the time required is prohibitive. A good Open World can still deliver the impression of being much larger than it actually is, even if not to the degree of the geographic area it emulates, as was the case for Morrowind.
I agree with the idea that a proper open world game should be scaled down relative to the environment it's simulating, but the fact that you cite Morrowind as an example of a game that does this is hilarious. we can add this to the list of reasons why hubs based RPGs and/or zone tranisition based RPGs are generally superior to open world RPGs. Open world games that don't give a good sense of scale is a perfect way to kill immersion. One of the few RPGs that manages to have an open world that actually feels properly massive is Kenshi.

As shown here, Kenshi has one of the largest game worlds of any game, much less RPGs, but it not once feels like it's overly large/excessive. The fact that it ranks so highly on this list despite being perfect in size is indicative of how few open world RPGs games, much less RPGs, there are that actually manage to create game worlds which do a good job of realistically scaling down the environments they are simulating.

This is why open world settings should take place on a smaller scale, such as a tiny island, or small portion of land, instead of the shit we usually have. I think the idea of traveling to multiple planets is still fine despite everything I've said however, as long as it's made clear that you can only stray so far from your ship on each of these planets to preserve the logical consistency of the setting (not that the setting will be good or there will be any logical consistency in anything else related to the setting lmfao).

Thats a fascinating video, imagine how long it took him to make it

Its good to see Daggerfall is 5 and 6 which makes it the largest RPG map
 

Giskard

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give the player as many options as possible
The problem is that quests are designed with free fast travel in mind as a mechanic. So you travel across the world 10 times in a single quest that just involves talking to 3 NPCs

So the players who choose to play in an immersive way get a shit experience
I can't argue with that, and that is a poor design choice.
 

Latelistener

Arcane
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May 25, 2016
Messages
2,600
I bought the controller because I needed a new one and thought it looked cool.
This is the only controller you need:

galleria-logitech_g_logitech_g502_mouse_gaming_wireless_lightspeed_sensore_hero_25k_25600_dpi_rgb_design_leggero_11_pulsanti_programmabili_batteria_lunga_durata_memoria_integrata_compatibile_pc_mac_laptop-01.jpg
This is good for multimedia and work, but not for gaming. I personally hate it because of the loose wheel and it's considered a norm.

I mean it's so heavy that if you move it in one direction fast and then stop you will feel the inertia from it.

Personally, I started using lightweight mouses with flexible cables and never looked back.
 

Kiste

Augur
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Messages
680
This is good for multimedia and work, but not for gaming. I personally hate it because of the loose wheel and it's considered a norm.

I mean it's so heavy that if you move it in one direction fast and then stop you will feel the inertia from it.

Personally, I started using lightweight mouses with flexible cables and never looked back.
I love that mouse. And the mouse wheel. Everything about it is perfect.

But then again, the most motorically demanding games I play are WoW Classic and maybe the occasional popamole shit.
 

Butter

Arcane
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Messages
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Fast travel in and of itself is not really an issue, how it's implemented can be an issue. The real issue is the size of the game, your personal play style and how much time you can devote to playing said game.
If you have 300 hours to sink into large open world game, then you probably can afford to spend the time walking across the map and seeking out those obscure locations and events. If however, like most people you have 'Real Life Shit' going on that means you can only spend maybe 20 or 30 hours total (and maybe only half an hour at a time) or whatever then you need something like fast travel to have a chance to see large section of the game in a reasonable time.
One answer to that is to make the games shorter...
Another is fast travel to allow those that enjoy large game-worlds to take shortcuts so they can skip all the stuff they don't have time for.
Walking across Vvardenfell is literally more enjoyable than doing Skyrim quests. Also I dare you to play a game like Oblivion without fast travel. The game repeatedly punches you in the dick by sticking quest objectives on the complete opposite side of the map because they just assumed everyone would fast travel. As soon as that convenience feature was added, they stopped supporting people who would prefer to play without it. Similarly, as soon as they added the quest marker "for convenience", they stopped providing textual or dialogue directions for players who would prefer a more immersive approach.
 

Gerrard

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Nov 5, 2007
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Yosharian

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The specific quest I have in mind when I think of those fucking quests where you speak to a bunch of NPCs in locations that are a million miles apart and the conversations are like 1 min long and there's basically nothing else to do in them, is that one in Fallout 4 where you speak to the dude in the radiation sea or whatever it's called

That fucking quest is a disaster when you can't fast travel

There are numerous quests in Skyrim that are similar
 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
12,337
Thats a fascinating video, imagine how long it took him to make it
It's not necessary to walk all over the map to know how much it will take to do that.
In many games the measurements you might have in-game in the form of waypoints or indicated movement speed aren't actually up to scale. Ghost Recon Wildlands took him 4 hours 31 minutes, but the distance (ignoring elevation, and the whole map is full of mountains) shown is 28,3 kilometers. So you have a casual walk across mountains at 6km/h?
Other issue is that the guy completely ignores elevation in his measurement.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,614
the self-defeating Open World design of Daggerfall
I will grudgingly allow you this description only because of the lack of technology available back then to make the empty spaces between cities anything more than flat planes of color interspersed with pixelated trees, with an occasional wandering monster. Oh, and maybe a random dungeon if you're lucky.

The point in this thread, however, is that the technology is available now, if we are to believe Todd and his sweet little lies, to *possibly* make the manual exploration of the vast spaces between known POIs worth it, if one were to stumble upon another, new POI, albeit one possibly procedurally generated.

Is this new A.I.-generated content going to be worth discovering, though? Can it ever be?
Theres no complexity to this stuff it's about rendering something onto the screen that fits into 33.3ms rendertime hence it has more to do with culling than generation. It's culling + they roll some fixed encounter. Now if you do it on some remote supercomputer then maybe maybe you get complexity out of it.
 

tritosine2k

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A photorealistic appearance of a 3D scene is required in many applications today. Thereby, one vital aspect is the usage of realistic materials, for which a broad variety of reflectance models is available. When directly employing those models, surfaces always look new, which contrasts strongly the real objects surrounding us as they have undergone diverse kinds of aging processes. The literature already proposes a set of viable methods to simulate different aging phenomena, but all of them are computationally expensive and can thus only be computed off-line. Therefore, this paper presents the first interactive, GPU-accelerated method to simulate material aging in a given scene. Thereby, our approach allows artists to precisely control the course of the aging process. Our particlebased method is capable to reproduce the most common deterioration phenomena in a few seconds, including plausible dirt bleeding, flow effects, corrosion and patina.

You want this stuff from next-to-zero ( "generation" ) it's simply not happening with consumer hardware any time soon, this stuff is ray tracing^3 and that's already too hard.
 

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