Game News Stoic's John Watson reveals that The Banner Saga 2 was a commercial disappointment

[Morality Games]

Urquhart is a reasonably successful manager.

how is urquhart a good manager? obsidian projects suffer from "aiming too high" then get shafted because of publisher. now that they have gotten rid of the evil publishers, they still cannot properly complete PoE and it took them a year to patch stuff out for it to be playable

I would have to write a book about RPG studio culture in order to properly explain why Urquhart is a reasonably successful manager.

First point I would make is that as CEO and primary owner of a medium sized independent game development studio, Urquhart is off manager at best (executive role is very different from management role). The projects where he was in the management side of production mostly happened at Black Isle Studios, under the captainship of Brian Fargo and his French successor. Urquhart managed games at Black Isle broadly met their production goals.

There's an overwhelming amount of work that goes into video game production aside from management, which is nasty and unenviable work mostly carried out by middle men.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

I enjoyed the first Banner Saga a great deal, it had a cool plot, setting and atmosphere. The combat wasn't amazing but it was serviceable for the short playtime. I think it was 17hours for me. That is probably my main gripe with the game and the reason I have not bought the sequel, it costs too much for such a short and probably incomplete experience. I don't have a problem with shorter games per se but Banner Saga was really on the lowest end when it comes to RPGs while the price was comparably high. I will eventually get the sequel when its on sale.

 

[Irxy]

Probably because many people who played BS1 were disappointed with it, I sure was glad I only backed one of the lowest tiers.
Everything about the game aside from nice art was bad. Combat system was weird and annoying, the lack of protagonist and constant change of the groups you control was annoying and didn't help to develop any feelings for the characters. Plot was slow and barely there. Choices either didn't matter or had random outcomes. Why would I want to buy more of the same? The devs who choose to listen to their fanboys instead of critics are destined to become niche.

 

[toro]

I supported the first game, I played it and I enjoyed it until the last boss fight which retarded the entire experience. The game went from decent to garbage in like one fight.

But the interesting thing is that the devs lied through their noses: in the initial pitch the game was never supposed to be a trilogy. The project became a trilogy somewhere along the road from KS to the actual release.

They went full greedy mode while refusing to provide a proper ending to the story and now they wonder why it went wrong. Fuck'em.

 

[Infinitron]

I supported the first game, I played it and I enjoyed it until the last boss fight which retarded the entire experience. The game went from decent to garbage in like one fight.

But the interesting thing is that the devs lied through their noses: in the initial pitch the game was never supposed to be a trilogy. The project became a trilogy somewhere along the road from KS to the actual release.

They went full greedy mode while refusing to provide a proper ending to the story and now they wonder why it went wrong. Fuck'em.

The Kickstarter campaign made reference to "Chapters", which turned into separate games later on. Would you prefer episodic DLC?

 

[almondblight]

The original game was supposed to be episodic. They said in their KS that they were doing it episodically - err, by "Chapter" - because they didn't have the money for a full 2-year development cycle (though they ended up getting the money for it, and ending up spending 2 years developing it, so...).

It seems to be another case of developers trying to cash in using the latest "screw over gamers" craze (and not only episodic - they did F2P as well), and having it backfire.

 

[Mustawd]

What's interesting to me is if they had kickstarted BS2, they would have been able to realize how the market for that game had changed. Crowdfunding gives you an idea of who your customer base is, so it's not just a matter of "we have the money now" IMO.

 

[Fenix]

It's good business if you're good enough, same as anything.

Yeah, Troika were a shittier devs sure - three games and good old bankruptcy. Same with BI.

 

[Johannes]

It's good business if you're good enough, same as anything.

Yeah, Troika were a shittier devs sure - three games and good old bankruptcy. Same with BI.

What do you think, would Troika have bankrupted if all those three games weren't severy buggy and flawed?

 

[Modron]

What do you think, would Troika have bankrupted if all those three games weren't severy buggy and flawed?

But they didn't go bankrupt they chose to close down rather than sully the Troika name by developing stuff that wasn't incline. Plus Black Isle didn't bankrupt anything just sat there as herve collapsed everything around them.

 

[CyberWhale]

But they didn't go bankrupt they chose to close down rather than sully the Troika name by developing stuff that wasn't incline. Plus Black Isle didn't bankrupt anything just sat there as Fargo collapsed everything around them.

/fixed

P.S. I like how Fargo seems to be doing the same mistake all over again. Brian, you're not one of the really big guys and you'll never become one. Deal with it.

 

[Infinitron]

But they didn't go bankrupt they chose to close down rather than sully the Troika name by developing stuff that wasn't incline. Plus Black Isle didn't bankrupt anything just sat there as Fargo collapsed everything around them.

/fixed

P.S. I like how Fargo seems to be doing the same mistake all over again. Brian, you're not one of the really big guys and you'll never become one. Deal with it.

Is making a game with a feature set on par with RPG Codex GOTY 2014 Divinity: Original Sin really trying to be one of the "really big guys"?

 

[MRY]

I have to say, the whole "so-and-so manager's company is going to collapse" line of argument reminds me of when people warn, "So-and-so country is repeating the mistakes of the Roman Empire," as if achieving a massive empire is totally easy and losing it requires some special neglect. If a company manages to make multiple games played by hundreds of thousands of people, it seems silly to call them bad at the business of making computer games. Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes those mistakes are fatal. By all means, we should learn from those mistakes. But we should be so lucky to have our empire last 1500 years or our creations sell as well as Stoic's or inXile's or Larian's.

 

[Infinitron]

Personally I don't think any of those men are "great" managers. However, I also think that if they were great, they wouldn't be making RPGs.

I mean really, a Feargus Urquhart that had a creative bone in his body would have turned Obsidian into a TellTale-style "story game" company years ago. He didn't because he's basically a bland middle manager who only knows that he likes RPGs.

 

[MRY]

Meh. I think Activision people overestimate how easy it would be to copy TellTale's style. Moreover, TellTale's success relies heavily on its ability to get nerd-pop-culture IP licenses. There are only so many such IPs, so Obisidian would need to get them, and would need a stable of talented people who wanted to work on them. RPG-style writing and TellTale-style writing are somewhat different, and while Obsidian did a good job with Star Wars, that was within RPG-writing conventions. Not obvious to me that they'd be able to duplicate the success within the TellTale framework, even if they could get a Star Wars-level license.

Just because TellTale's games seem simplistic in comparison to classic adventure games doesn't mean it's easy to copy them.

 

[MRY]

I think you misunderstand it then. To begin with, you often need to satisfy the IP holder, and some of the projects die without ever being released (e.g., Obsidian's Aliens: Crucible). In any event, some of TellTale's own licensed IPs failed in other hands (e.g., the Game of Thrones RPG, Monkey Island) and some of TellTale's licensed titles have flopped as well (e.g., Bone, Back to the Future). It's always hard to tell whether a game has sold or not, and it's true that you'll always sell something when it's a licensed title (but see Atari E.T.) but not always enough to justify the cost, esp. if the license itself requires some front-end buy.

 

[Galdred]

As I understand it, licensed products sell themselves. There's no need to actually deliver a good product with good writing when people will lap it up regardless.

This kind of thinking got us games like E.T. and most of the Warhammer/40K shovelware of late.

 

[MRY]

I'm not defending IP licensing, or Telltale's games from criticism (though it looks like a considerable majority of players like it, with 78% positive Steam ratings), or Game of Thrones as an IP. I generally don't like IP licensed games except ones that rely on very broad settings (like P&P settings), or Telltale games, or Game of Thrones in any form. I'm just saying that the fact that Telltale has succeeded in this niche doesn't mean that Obsidian could do so. Taking a detailed IP and massaging it into an interactive movie requires art and craft. Maybe not the noblest art and craft, but it's not necessarily that easy.

 

[Fairfax]

I mean really, a Feargus Urquhart that had a creative bone in his body would have turned Obsidian into a TellTale-style "story game" company years ago. He didn't because he's basically a bland middle manager who only knows that he likes RPGs.

Woah. Something went wrong with your programming, you're not supposed to say that.

 

[Fenix]

If you think that all rasons behind fail and bunkruptcy are "games are buggy and flawed" you don't understand at all.
Also it should mean that all sucessful games arn't "bugged and flawed" which is also wrong.

My point was that - I agree with Lurker King - game industry is a not-a-business, because you can make more money with skils that required for gamedev in different fields and more reliable.

Actually I think there are two kinds of devs, those who honestly do their job of making interesting games, not making money - those naive guys who think that making a gams is a prophitable business, and those who understand that making good games is not a business, it is more like paying tribute to the art where in best cae you will get break even.

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

Meh. I think Activision people overestimate how easy it would be to copy TellTale's style.

What is Until Dawn?

Moreover, TellTale's success relies heavily on its ability to get nerd-pop-culture IP licenses. There are only so many such IPs, so Obisidian would need to get them,

What is Life is Strange?

Copying Telltale's formula is not terribly hard, it's just that the formula itself does not in any way guarantee good sales. Even when you combine it with a nerbait IP.

 

[Invictus]

This is a bit sad, the first Banner Saga was all right I guess, finished it too.
I bought it on GOG on a sale but never played it beyond trying it out till I got stuck in the middle of Guatemala and downloaded it for my tablet to pass the time. The graphics were pretty nice, the story was average but enjoyable, he combat was... serviceable at best but not horrible and I can honestly say it was worth what I paid for the game both times, plus I felt good for contributing to the Incline and supporting a indy developer.
I have seen the sequel on GOG but honestly I have such a backlog of games that I simply didn't think it was worth getting at full price and I lost track of it of sales and bundles
I have to agree that Stoic really screwed the pooch here; I understand they are former Bioware programmers and artists so their understanding of the medium and the business might have been limited, but how clueless can you be to string such a list of fuckups?

No community manager for gauging not only the pulse of the people who actually took the time not only to play the game but to actively discuss it and learn what they liked and what they didnt...are you telling me they couldnt afford to hire even a part time guy to do that? No wonder their fans left them

No Kickstarter? Not only is is a very telling gauge of the actual interest in your product (it ultimately works as an extended preorder; just look at Shenmue) but to help you fund your project without having to roll the dice all by yourselves. An epic fuckup IMAO

Not hiring a proper manager for your "studio", someone who could act as a voice of reason telling them to try to develop something else maybe in the style of Harebrained or Fargo to generate not only interest and keep a relevant profile but to help develop pitches for future projects or even Kickstarters "From the Makers of the Banner Saga..." or whatever

Finally understanding diminishing returns; I agree that maybe 40% of the people who bought the game did it for the pretty graphics and never played beyond the intro. And those who liked the game (like me) maybe had enough and couldnt be bothered to buy the seemingly "more of the same" sequel They could have known that by the interest in their forums and maybe the success of another Kickstarter but they didnt heed the signs. And for all their talk of bigger better I actually didnt see anything truly revolutionary mentioned about TBS2; graphics look the same, combat looked the same etc

Having your own business is very hard guys, and I certainly understand the Relic guys and Sven too; it becomes a balancing act between staying small and making with what you got because your fear failure which might get hit by a mistake you cannot get over it (game, disease etc) or trying to grow your business to have more options and ongoing projects to make sure you can survive those bad times

As VD says, making a bigger game is not the same as making a better game and sometimes people get lost on that difference.

From what I have seen of D:OS2 so far is very promising; they are using the lessons learned from the first game (community feedback and early access for example) to deliver a more polished game which certainly looks prettier but is focused on the weaknesses of the first game (so so dialogue and story) and yeah their Kickstarter was better than the first one so they seem to be have the hang of it, InXile and Harebrained too seem to be doing it correctly since they decided to branch out, develop different projects and continue doing what made them
Successful in the first place

 

[MRY]

Copying Telltale's formula is not terribly hard, it's just that the formula itself does not in any way guarantee good sales. Even when you combine it with a nerbait IP.

I thought it was obvious that I meant "successfully copying"? My whole point was that it's not as if Obsidian would be guaranteed success by trying to copy Telltale games. What I understood Infinitron's point to be was that Obsidian would have an easier time of success making such games, and my reply was meant to convey skepticism of that point, not to suggest that Telltale discovered the philosopher's stone.

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

I thought it was obvious that I meant "successfully copying"? My whole point was that it's not as if Obsidian would be guaranteed success by trying to copy Telltale games. What I understood Infinitron's point to be was that Obsidian would have an easier time of success making such games, and my reply was meant to convey skepticism of that point, not to suggest that Telltale discovered the philosopher's stone.

Well, I had to point out that two studios roughly of Obsidian's size and ambitions already managed to copy Telltale successfully. Add to that the fact that neither of those games are actually based on a pre-established and well-recognized IP, and the fact that Telltale's Batman just tanked, and it does undermine the key points of your argument.

I'm saying, however, that trying something like that wouldn't be wise because of the formula itself. On one hand, making a passable attempt at copying it is a not so hard - not at this point, provably so - but on the other,the formula itself is flawed in that it has very little staying power.
Gamers these days like novelty, they want their new and exciting spectacle - not the same old shit, and that's what the Telltale series lack, and you can very clearly see it in the public reception and slowly decreasing sales. Feargus is not nearly as conservative as people like to think - you wouldn't expect a dedicated RPG developer to start working on a tank MMO, but he is very cautious, and making the next slam dank based on the trend that's slowly tapering off due to oversaturation and inherent flaws doesn't seem like a particularly appealing idea.

 

[Archibald]

No community manager for gauging not only the pulse of the people who actually took the time not only to play the game but to actively discuss it and learn what they liked and what they didnt...are you telling me they couldnt afford to hire even a part time guy to do that? No wonder their fans left them

If you don't have enough money to hire someone you might as well appoint some random active dude from the community to act as pseudo community manager. Not ideal, but at leasts its fucking something.