SW:TOR

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Hah, WAR isn't F2P yet. EA isn't going to make TOR F2P. Ever.

I'm sorry to say, but this thing might be good for SwTOR, cause F2P is not always a good thing.

This is a rather curious claim, seeing how F2P has saved many MMOs and made them more succesful than they ever were. Champions Online seeing a 1000% increase in revenue within the first months after F2P launch kinda cemented that it's a good strategy.

 

[Shannow]

Hah, WAR isn't F2P yet. EA isn't going to make TOR F2P. Ever.

I'm sorry to say, but this thing might be good for SwTOR, cause F2P is not always a good thing.

This is a rather curious claim, seeing how F2P has saved many MMOs and made them more succesful than they ever were. Champions Online seeing a 1000% increase in revenue within the first months after F2P launch kinda cemented that it's a good strategy.

"Hey guyz, f2p isn't always good for the games implementing it."
"Hey toto, I have this one example where f2p has increased revenue for one game in a certain time span. That obviously proves that f2p is always the best way to go."

 

[Excidium]

It also worked exceptionally well for LOTRO and DDO.

 

[Mangoose]

Haven't noticed F2P fail for a game.

 

[Shannow]

Haven't noticed F2P fail for a game.

1. I never claimed it did. I just pointed out that giving one successful example, and nothing else, proves nothing.
2. IMO, f2p is a good way to attract new players (who like me, will not pay monthly subscriptions) and to give an ailing game another surge of cash. But it strongly depends on how f2p is implemented. And it won't save games if the interest simply isn't there. And I have a hard time believing it generates profits as long and as much from a single customer as the subsciption based model does. So it's usually most profitable to have 1-2 years of subscription and then 1-3 years of f2p.

Do any of you play Minions of Mirth? Or any Anarchy Online players here? Who still plays Conan? Or Everquest (didn't that go f2p recently?)?
f2p cannot fail because it's usually only implemented when the game is already dying. But "failure", especially in this case, is very relative.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Really, F2P is a dream for niche games like superhero MMOs, and pretty much any big-money MMO (since going sub means you WILL get sodomized by WoW). I can't say much for the long terms effects on Star Trek Online yet (though the game is at the moment chock-full all the time), but in case of Champions, having played it since before it went F2P so I can contrast between the old days and current situation, and I can say without doubt that the game really reached its potential AFTER it went F2P, and currently has more players than I've ever seen before (hell, Millenium City Powerhouse had some 70 instances two weeks ago, and is always teeming with people nowadays). Following going F2P Champions has seen more updates, more new powers, more content and more of everything basically, I'd consider it a very good example of F2P being a better move to sub-based method of cash-wrenching.

But you are correct, a lot depends on how F2P is implemented. DCUO, Champions and Star Trek Online all have extremely generous F2P feature lists, and you could see the effect by looking at the population ingame. By contrast I've heard nothing but bad things about the way City of Heroes and Everquest handled F2P, turning the game into an inclusive "old boys club" for longtime players in case of COX and with Everquest just having such a neutered feature list that there wasn't anything enticing for anyone.

 

[toro]

My problem with F2P is that it actually means "micro-transactions". I know that in theory they represent different things, but no *pure* F2P online game last for long. Somewhere in the dark there is a micro-transaction slut asking for your money (or the other way around, I'm very confused lately).
Micro-transactions means pay-to-win and if we say that paying a monthly sub for a MMORPG is retarded, then playing a F2P game is the apex of retardness. Similar to playing TF2 lately. But this is a judgmental and simplistic view.
In the end it doesn't matter if you are sodomized by a greedy wolf as long as you have F.U.N.

 

[Black]

TF2 isn't p2w. Most if not all unlockable weapons are inferior to stock load-out and AFAIK all non-cosmetic items can be found through normal play/crafting. TF2 is pretty much very shit now thanks to demoniggers running around with frying pans, wearing shitty glasses and silly hats but it ain't p2w.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

STO also isn't pay to win, this has been gone over multiple times in the STO thread, seeing how all the premium ships are generally just more unique ships or differently tweaked/higher tier variants of other ships, other than the ship the cash shop has services and cosmetic items. DCUO's cash shop was purely cosmetic items and services, no gameplay benefits when I last played. The only slightly pay-to-win aspect in Champions Online is the freeform characters for Gold members (= monthly sub), but that's only because you can powergame with a freeform character, and that requires conscious effort. The actual micro-transactions are overwhelmingly cosmetic items, some services like renames and respecs, and additional archetypes (which are *not* superior to ordinary ones).

The notion that F2P automatically means pay-to-win is quite ridiculous.

 

[Average Manatee]

Guild Wars is actually not pay to win in that absolutely nothing bought in the store is more than a cosmetic improvement (the closest is buying skills to remove some grind, but it takes like 30 mins of PvP to unlock a build's skills). As opposed to the "we sell weapons that have different stats but can be rationalized as about equal to normal stuff" bullshit that people fall for.

 

[Shannow]

That's because GW isn't f2p in the first place.

 

[abija]

STO also isn't pay to win, this has been gone over multiple times in the STO thread, seeing how all the premium ships are generally just more unique ships or differently tweaked/higher tier variants of other ships, other than the ship the cash shop has services and cosmetic items. DCUO's cash shop was purely cosmetic items and services, no gameplay benefits when I last played. The only slightly pay-to-win aspect in Champions Online is the freeform characters for Gold members (= monthly sub), but that's only because you can powergame with a freeform character, and that requires conscious effort. The actual micro-transactions are overwhelmingly cosmetic items, some services like renames and respecs, and additional archetypes (which are *not* superior to ordinary ones).

The notion that F2P automatically means pay-to-win is quite ridiculous.

I'm not sure you understand how p2w works because buying items/crafting mats/xp boosts fits it like a charm (assuming items are not cosmetic only which doesn't apply for those 2 games).

 

[Drakron]

I play STO and you are idiot saying that.

Crafting on STO is about pointless due to STF gear, the only thing worth crafting is the AEGIS set.
Also XP boosts? You shitting me ... you can level a character in STO in a week, 2 if you play casually and XP Boosts are considered by most players to be something they come up so they can say Lockboxes are worth the money, they are POINTLESS and the exchanged is filled with then for low prices ... heck I got CXP boosts that are preferable for about 200k EC just to show the insane BS you are spewing.

The only thing you have a case is ships ... yes, they are quite good and in shuttles case well worth it but its still not P2W, even if you load them with consoles there are restrictions were build matters more that consoles, a good example is the Quad Cannons that simply are less capable at lv50 because they are strait [Dmg] lacking other modifiers and even if they are x4 they fall behind the Mk XI and Mk XII that have [Arc] modifiers.

Next time, know what the hell you are talking about ... talking about XP boosts on STO being pay to win is showing you know shit about STO, a game were its harder to get to T3 commendation that it is to be a Vice-Admiral.

 

[toro]

TF2 isn't p2w. Most if not all unlockable weapons are inferior to stock load-out and AFAIK all non-cosmetic items can be found through normal play/crafting. TF2 is pretty much very shit now thanks to demoniggers running around with frying pans, wearing shitty glasses and silly hats but it ain't p2w.

The majority of demoniggers *paid* for those items. If you prove otherwise, I acknowledge my intellectual defeat and I will fist-bro your post. Care to try?

Edit: It's true that "most if not all unlockable weapons are inferior to stock load-out", but not when you have a complete item set for them. Because there are palpable advantages in using complete item sets, that's why:
1) If you want to *win*, you need to specialize - be proficient with a certain weapon etc.
2) If you need to *specialize*, you need to have a complete item set,
3) If you want a complete item set, you need to put the money down on the table OR play for a long time until you get all the items. Guess which option is more *rewarding* for the actual gamers. Yawn.

This is actually Zynga design philosophy sucking the life out of the game. The only difference is that Valve did not go full retard on the game and somehow they still have the appearance of a decent establishment.

 

[abija]

Don't you get items with Dilithium in STO that's limited per day and you can buy with money? XP Boost was just one of the examples and still, regardless how trivial leveling is, it still applies.​

​

You apparently make the same error, thinking p2w applies only if you end up stronger or not. The most common method is "pay for stuff" vs "grind to get stuff (usually with grind caps per day to make it even more fun)". Basically any forms of shortcut to grinding are p2w elements even though they're dismissed as convenience. ​

​

 

[commie]

Meanwhile, Dave Gaider is losing all his carefully planted hair and becomes fat and sad again.

I saw him recently and indeed he's back to how he used to be...gone is the self satisfied smug look and the hair.

He's like a barometer of the fortunes of Bioware.

 

[Bahamut]

Meanwhile, Dave Gaider is losing all his carefully planted hair and becomes fat and sad again.

Gaider Effect

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Don't you get items with Dilithium in STO that's limited per day and you can buy with money? XP Boost was just one of the examples and still, regardless how trivial leveling is, it still applies.

​

You apparently make the same error, thinking p2w applies only if you end up stronger or not. The most common method is "pay for stuff" vs "grind to get stuff (usually with grind caps per day to make it even more fun)". Basically any forms of shortcut to grinding are p2w elements even though they're dismissed as convenience.

Keep moving the goal posts.


Dilithium is limited per day, yes (though it bears mention very little grind is involved, you hit the 8k limit within an hour and you get XP while doing it too), but the D-Store prices are reasonable and if you start getting your 8k per day from the time you start playing you're likely to end up with enough to outfit yourself completely. Similarly, like drakron started to mention, you don't need the stuff to begin with, it only provides a marginal improvement over Blue Mk XI mission rewards (usually the big thing is that you get your favourite shade of the energy rainbow, in terms of mechanics Cryptic is a huge advocate of diminishing returns), and the stuff that's better than D-Store is only a marginal improvement over it too. The best two sets, the Borg Tech and Aegis, are acquired easily, especially if you have bros (I currently craft Aegis for any Codexer who needs it if they chip in at the mat costs). Skill and actual build matter more than gear quality in STO.

Now, you might have a hint of this with the new Catalyst C-Store items in Champions Online that can increase Mod rank (and are hilariously expensive), as theoretically you could gear up with Rank 9 Mods using those... Except the difference between R5 (current standard endgame) and R9 is negligible due to diminishing returns and the fact that mechanically your characters easily hit the optimum stat values of 200-250 for Primary Superstat and 150-200 for Secondary Superstats with normal R5 mods, so you're really just being a stat-whore. Besides, most people are expecting that R7 will be the standard endgame tier after the planned level cap increases.

So really, you aren't getting any "wins" for paying. Then again, you defined "winning" as avoiding grinding, when the first question should be that who the hell wants grind in their game to begin with?

 

[abija]

"Skill and actual build matter more than gear quality in STO."

This is one of the most inane things ever and it's used as argument in one form or another in pretty much every imaginable scenario to justify some imbalance.
Given two players of equal skill that start the game, the one pouring $$$ into it will be slightly better and peak his potential a lot faster than the one investing 0. So he'll be the winner in vast majority of "encounters". Free guy is basically playing with a handicap that lowers over time but never disappears and will most likely spike at every content release.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

"Skill and actual build matter more than gear quality in STO."

This is one of the most inane things ever and it's used as argument in one form or another in pretty much every imaginable scenario to justify some imbalance.
Given two players of equal skill that start the game, the one pouring $$$ into it will be slightly better and peak his potential a lot faster than the one investing 0. So he'll be the winner in vast majority of "encounters". Free guy is basically playing with a handicap that lowers over time but never disappears and will most likely spike at every content release.

The D-Store gear is NOT the best gear in the game and doesn't require spending money. The absolutely best gear can only be acquired by copious grinding. Aegis and Borg set cannot be bought with $$$ either, unless someone is selling Aegis pieces on the Exchange and you've used cheap C-Store items to make credits. Similarly, the very idea that an XP booster somehow breaks the game is absolutely batshit insane because there's no one forcing you to play more or keep up with someone else, and there is a level cap so no permanent advantage is gained. You just spent less time, big deal.

In an encounter with two players of equal skill, there are a variety of factors that come to play before any $$$ factors: 1) Ship types (only exception here is if you want a Carrier with a Federation officer), 2) Bridge Officer loadout, 3) Overall weapon types selected. None of these are influenced by IRL cash. And even then, if the other guy has spent money to acquire D-Store weapons and consoles, the other guy can just as well get the same stuff without spending a dime, or better stuff if he wants to. There is no permanent handicap to playing STO 100% free.

So, get back to moving goal posts.

 

[Black]

TF2 isn't p2w. Most if not all unlockable weapons are inferior to stock load-out and AFAIK all non-cosmetic items can be found through normal play/crafting. TF2 is pretty much very shit now thanks to demoniggers running around with frying pans, wearing shitty glasses and silly hats but it ain't p2w.

The majority of demoniggers *paid* for those items.

So what? Again, they're obtainable in-game through random drops, achievements and crafting. And yes, sets give some bonuses, but even hats can be crafted. It takes lotsa metal but it's doable, especially with trading, smelting and shit.
But TF2 is shit now anyway, so who caresM:

 

[Drakron]

"Skill and actual build matter more than gear quality in STO."

This is one of the most inane things ever and it's used as argument in one form or another in pretty much every imaginable scenario to justify some imbalance.

Because you are completely ignorant about STO.

The BEST Gear is from the STF store, only way to get it is by playing STFs and trade EDC, Salvage or Tech for it ... the MACO/Omega/Honor Guard sets are the very best sets in the game and still are some of the few sets in the game and only way to get their Mk. XII variants is by Tech Drops from Elite STFs.

Then comes the other gear, ship weapons and once again the STF Store wins because they have the best modifiers, this is one of the big issues there with STO because if want the best Gear you have no choice but playing STFs because its better that anything else in the game, except consoles but even those are handled by the DOFF assignments.

Given two players of equal skill that start the game, the one pouring $$$ into it will be slightly better and peak his potential a lot faster than the one investing 0. So he'll be the winner in vast majority of "encounters". Free guy is basically playing with a handicap that lowers over time but never disappears and will most likely spike at every content release.

As I was mentioning STFS then I am going to point out the inherit issue of the current system ... ITS ENTIRELY LUCK BASED.

The tech drops are RANDOM, someone can play 100 Elite STFs and never seen one and someone can just doing their first and get one, there is no skill required to get a Tech drop, only LUCK.

The same goes for the Mk. XII consoles, since the system is random ... one can get a Very Rare Anti-Proton or get a Rare Plasma, heck the system goes even to the DOFF packs they sell as the only thing you are assured is getting a Rare DOFF, I got a Very Rare DOFF for NOTHING because I got lucky on a DOFF assignment that decided to crit.

Are there exceptions? Some as the DS9 Pack comes with 3 DOFFs you know what they can do but the majority of time its a gamble, the only "P2W" would be the DOFF packs because they are the ones right now with the most influence, except as I mentioned they are RANDOM.

This leaves us the ships but I always said they were the exception and they come with a price, a free ship can beat a pay ship if someone knows how to use it and since abilities are NOT granted for free in no way they are so dominating.

Also your line about "every content release" is hilarious because so fat all releases been adding to the game for free, theJem'Hadar Sets and the Reman Set as of pay ships we got the Flasgships (Odyssey/Borats), Atrox Carrier (that is roughly a copy of the Vo'quv that is free) and the Yellowstone that is a shuttle, the game have large problems with content or should I say, the lack of.

 

[toro]

STO is StarTrek Online. Now all the acronyms have a meaning

Please carry on, while I go shoot myself ...

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

STO technically does not have lack of content, due to the Foundry. Just pointing that out drakron.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

The tech drops are RANDOM, someone can play 100 Elite STFs and never seen one and someone can just doing their first and get one, there is no skill required to get a Tech drop, only LUCK.

I was so goddamn lucky on my tac captain. First or second STF I did I got a tech drop and got myself the first tier MACO shield. Haven't gotten another tech drop in 50+ STFs after that.