Information Swen Vincke on What is an RPG + Divinity: Original Sin KS Update #47

[Delterius]

That's a FPS bro, not a TRUE RPG.

Though this may sound like mocking, it is actually quite important as far as 'M' goes. After all, motivation comes from not only from the storyline, but also the mechanics. And New Vegas suffers from the pre-P:E Sawyerian syndrome of being a Sawyer game where the poor bastard had to work within a less than ideal engine. At least if you're one who prefers top down TRUE RPGS.

I think Sven is really talking about what makes a better "experience" in any rpg you can think of - not what makes a great and TRUE RPG.

Only the first - Freedom is gameplay relevant. The rest fall down to writing.

Not really because motivation relies on solid game design, ditto for how combat enables an interaction with the antagonists.

 

[Roguey]

I certainly thought the courier had amnesia as well. The intro must not have been clear on that point. Doesn't your character say he can't remember his name?

No, the doc asks your name and then you provide one.

I think running away is still a valid option. The Mojave Express Package can't cover the entire wasteland of the Fallout universe.

You can say that about a lot of games. Why wouldn't certain Vault Dwellers just forget about the whole water chip thing? Why does the Chosen One have to particularly care about saving the village?

Josh did say he wanted to have a non-standard game over where you head into NCR territory from the Mojave Outpost but it wasn't worth the time/resource expenditure.

 

[tuluse]

I think both Fallouts had weak character motivations as well, but you don't have to do the first part of the main quest to beat the game.

The real motivation of the first two Fallouts was holy shit this world is awesome I want to explore it. I didn't feel that as much with New Vegas, but I fully acknowledge that is probably personal preference.

 

[hiver]

I think Sven is really talking about what makes a better "experience" in any rpg you can think of - not what makes a great and TRUE RPG.

Only the first - Freedom, is gameplay relevant. The rest fall down to writing.

Not really because motivation relies on solid game design, ditto for how combat enables an interaction with the antagonists.

Im afraid it doesnt have anything to do with mechanics in Svens idea.

Motivation comes from the presentation of the story, the first "encounter" that gets you going - its purely a story/writing thing. He also mentions sometimes disliking the rest of the game but playing on to see whats around the corner, whats going to happen next.


-edit

Sven said:

The M then stands for the Motivation that is given to you to develop your character.

This doesn’t always have to be the main story: Diablo for instance was a game that got its Motivation from item fever and a few cutscenes, rather than from its complex storyline. However, it’s clear that having a good storyline can be instrumental in increasing your desire to explore a game’s universe. When the Universe falls flat (as it often does), it’s very possible that I’ll continue playing if my motivation to discover what comes next is strong enough. In general I find that if both Universe and Motivation score too low, I’m not going to be interested in a game.

An interesting case here is World of Warcraft. I had 2 level 70 characters, a number which is far from impressive for a lot people, but by my standards, considering the amount of free time I have, that’s a number that’s insane. Now, I didn’t play World of Warcraft because I thought it had a good story, or because I was impressed by its universe – I only played it because I was motivated by … the other people playing it. So, anything that motivates you to keep on playing goes I guess, though my personal holy grail will remain a strong storyline that will emotionally impact me.

The villain is the same - pure writing. The characterization, the setup, the description - how interesting the villain really is as a person. - Writing.
Its not like any villain ever does anything special except waiting for you at the end of the game in some small room he cant escape from - a sacrificial lamb to the players Ego. (except Irenicus but thats a rare jewel and then he also got he same shitty deal at the end anyway)

Sven said:

I actually can’t think of any RPG that really impressed me in this department, though entities like SHODAN did manage to at least upset me sufficiently for me to remember it. I think the lack of memorable villains has a lot to do with the narrative limitations our medium still has,

- so, not as clear cut as i said but practically thats it.

 

[Delterius]

You kinda missed the part where he said that Diablo got motivation, in part, due to 'item fever' and that World of Warcraft engrossed him through the multiplayer aspects. His personal Holy Grail is that of a game that also has good writing, and I think everyone here would agree, but writing itself isn't all that can or even should motivate the player.

 

[Saduj]

I think both Fallouts had weak character motivations as well, but you don't have to do the first part of the main quest to beat the game.

The real motivation of the first two Fallouts was holy shit this world is awesome I want to explore it. I didn't feel that as much with New Vegas, but I fully acknowledge that is probably personal preference.

I was annoyed by the water chip quest in Fallout given how nonsensical it is that you would actually bother with it after being cast out and having no family at the vault. I can see why the game requires you to complete it. But once you find the water chip, there should have at least been an option where you require those motherfuckers to pay a large ransom before you'd turn it over. Welcome to the wasteland, dicks.

As for the video included with the update for Beyond Divinity, I thought the # and variability of the outcomes for the quest didn't really live up to the hype. It was better than just pass/fail but the beginning of the video made it sound like there was going to be much more or something unexpected.

 

[hiver]

You kinda missed the part where he said that Diablo got motivation, in part, due to 'item fever' and that World of Warcraft engrossed him through the multiplayer aspects. His personal Holy Grail is that of a game that also has good writing, and I think everyone here would agree, but writing itself isn't all that can or even should motivate the player.

How could i have missed it when i posted that part of his answer too.

And i corrected my statement from before by saying:

- so, not as clear cut as i said but practically thats it.

Since he does restate the importance of the story to him as the biggest of these various motivations.

His example of SHODAN is very clear and:

I think the lack of memorable villains has a lot to do with the narrative limitations our medium still has

is rather clear too.

 

[tuluse]

I was annoyed by the water chip quest in Fallout given how nonsensical it is that you would actually bother with it after being cast out and having no family at the vault. I can see why the game requires you to complete it. But once you find the water chip, there should have at least been an option where you require those motherfuckers to pay a large ransom before you'd turn it over. Welcome to the wasteland, dicks.

As for the video included with the update for Beyond Divinity, I thought the # and variability of the outcomes for the quest didn't really live up to the hype. It was better than just pass/fail but the beginning of the video made it sound like there was going to be much more or something unexpected.

You don't have to complete the Water Chip quest. All you have to do is stop the super mutants.

 

[Saduj]

I was annoyed by the water chip quest in Fallout given how nonsensical it is that you would actually bother with it after being cast out and having no family at the vault. I can see why the game requires you to complete it. But once you find the water chip, there should have at least been an option where you require those motherfuckers to pay a large ransom before you'd turn it over. Welcome to the wasteland, dicks.

As for the video included with the update for Beyond Divinity, I thought the # and variability of the outcomes for the quest didn't really live up to the hype. It was better than just pass/fail but the beginning of the video made it sound like there was going to be much more or something unexpected.

You don't have to complete the Water Chip quest. All you have to do is stop the super mutants.

I was technically wrong to say the game requires you to complete the quest. You can't fail the quest by allowing the timer to run out or the game ends.

 

[thesheeep]

TB combat vs RT combat.
Isometric PoV vs First person pov.
Diversity of gameplay style and options vs combat only game. (which translates to non-linear vs linear)

I don't see where any of those have anything to do with being an RPG or not. You can have RPGs that are isometric, sure, but you also have first person RPGs.
And the other way around, a game that is isometric, has a very diversified gameplay, non-linearity and TB combat might as well be something that is definitely not role playing game.

The only thing that truly defines "RPG" is this:

Character skills vs Player skill.

As long as this is true, we have a role playing game, as you character's skills, not the player's skills, define the outcome of any action.
The player decides which actions to take, the character ('s stats) define the outcome. It's actually pretty simple, I never quite got why there is such a heavy discussion about this.

I wouldn't even put C&C as a requirement for being an RPG. So I do consider games like Diablo (yes, even 3), ADOM, Final Fantasy, ... all as RPGs. Most of them being a sub-category of RPG, of course.
But I don't know what sub-category RPG+C&C would be.
Maybe that is the definition of CRPG for some.

Is this all specifically about CRPGs?
Oh, that C is so annoying! Defining it becomes really impossible as it stands for "computer". What is that supposed to mean in context with an RPG? It can really be anything, from TB combat to first person (Dungeon Master, etc.). So, if there is no proper, based-on-facts-only way to define a thing, why even try? Let's just call something "RPG" if it is one. And an RPG-X-mix if it mixes X with RPG elements.
Then again, this might be a case of discussing for the sake of discussing something. What's the point, really? Might as well debate on religion.

 

[mondblut]

The F in FUME stands for the Freedom of character development available.

Can you make the avatar you want to play? Or are you forced into a particular stereotype conjured by the designers of the game, who for sure will not have thought of your particular fantasy. It’s an important question, because it directly affects how immersed I will be in the game.​

​

As usual, Swen praises Ultima VII as the game that comes closest to his ideal.

Ultima 7 mentioned in the same post with "freedom of character development" and "not being forced into a particular stereotype"?

Thou should not do that, Avatar.

 

[mondblut]

The only thing that truly defines "RPG" is this:

Character skills vs Player skill.

As long as this is true, we have a role playing game, as you character's skills, not the player's skills, define the outcome of any action.
The player decides which actions to take, the character ('s stats) define the outcome. It's actually pretty simple, I never quite got why there is such a heavy discussion about this.

Championship Manager is an epitome of RPGs, followed closely by the Generic WW2 Wargame #5632.

 

[thesheeep]

Championship Manager is an epitome of RPGs, followed closely by the Generic WW2 Wargame #5632.

Erh, okay. I forgot to add character development. And the fact that you actually need to play a role. Which you don't in management and WW2 game X games.

 

[hiver]

Another relativist trying to excuse his preferences and enjoyment of action rpgs... another day.

 

[mondblut]

Championship Manager is an epitome of RPGs, followed closely by the Generic WW2 Wargame #5632.

Erh, okay. I forgot to add character development.

You must be awfully behind even on wargames, let alone on soccer management sims.

And the fact that you actually need to play a role.

LOL.

 

[MicoSelva]

Swen's system is not bad, but it does omit some important aspects of CRPGs (combat being the prime example) which, when done badly, can bury the game in the long run, even if it scores well on the FUME scale.

 

[hiver]

Seriously though, that short list needs further elaboration but since ive ranted enough about that in past week or so i didnt feel like it.

For the record TB vs Rt is there because Tb systems reinforce the character skill vs player skill importance.
Isometric PoV reinforces the importance of various RPG mechanics while FP demands more resources to be spent on graphikz and also forces RT combat.
Thats why we usually see various actionRPGs using FP and RT combat.
Also, these various deformed sub-RPGs usually have only combat as gameplay, which results in every class or build to have literally the same playthrough. Opposed to a TRUE RPG which has more or less different playthroughs for different builds.

You can just change character vs player skill for any of the other features i mentioned and the result would be the same, except some subRPGs would move closer to brown section.


Svens question was also about what makes a good RPG for you, not what makes a TRUE RPG in general.

 

[thesheeep]

You must be awfully behind even on wargames, let alone on soccer management sims.

I'm fully aware that the players/soldiers have stats. But you do not play the role of a soccer player in those games, and not of a soldier. If at all (and that is a very, very big if), you play the role of the manager, who, afaik, does not have actual stats that would determine anything.

But you can continue to misinterpret my words if it suits you.

 

[mondblut]

I'm fully aware that the players/soldiers have stats.

And develop them. There goes character development.

If at all (and that is a very, very big if), you play the role of the manager, who, afaik, does not have actual stats that would determine anything.

You play the role of Master Chef in Halo.

(and not like it matters, but you do have a ton of stats like Defense Training, Man Management etc as a manager in CM).

As for me, I don't "play roles" in any RPGs. I control units. Case closed.

 

[thesheeep]

Let's just end it with that.

 

[Delterius]

Championship Manager is an epitome of RPGs, followed closely by the Generic WW2 Wargame #5632.

Erh, okay. I forgot to add character development. And the fact that you actually need to play a role. Which you don't in management and WW2 game X games.

Forget about mondblut for a second but do take a look at something like Crusader Kings II. Not only for the stats, the character development and etc but rather for the C&C that the game's emergent gameplay end up creating.

 

[thesheeep]

Well, having characters with stats is nice, but to qualify as an RPG you need to be that character(s). Are you a character in CKII? I think not.
You are playing a nation or dynasty. A rather abstract concept, which is normal in strategy games. The head of the nation is just a character inside the game. Which you can influence pretty much, yes, and I would agree that CKII has some minor RPG elements. But I do not consider C&C a requirement or indicator to qualify as RPG (might as well say Stanley Parable is an RPG then, or Capitalism).

King Of The Dragon Pass is a much better example, afaik (haven't played it). There, you definitely do play the role of the king. But I don't know about the mechanics in there, if your character's stats (if there are any) have any influence on outcomes, and if you can develop your stats.

 

[tuluse]

Well, having characters with stats is nice, but to qualify as an RPG you need to be that character(s). Are you a character in CKII? I think not.
You are playing a nation or dynasty. A rather abstract concept, which is normal in strategy games.

Which character do you play in Wizardry, Might and Magic, Pool of Radiance, or Icewind Dale?

How is controlling a family different from controlling a party of characters?

 

[Overboard]

Well, having characters with stats is nice, but to qualify as an RPG you need to be that character(s). Are you a character in CKII? I think not.

You're as much a character in CKII as you are in Wizardry.

King Of The Dragon Pass is a much better example, afaik (haven't played it). There, you definitely do play the role of the king. But I don't know about the mechanics in there, if your character's stats (if there are any) have any influence on outcomes, and if you can develop your stats.

So you don't know anything about the details of the game, but you are holding it up as a paragon of RPGness?

 

[Lhynn]

Nope, in CKII you are the leader of the dinasty, whomever that may be, the son of the starting character, the grandson, etc.