Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

KickStarter System Shock 1 Remake by Nightdive Studios

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
10,145
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
In Half Life (and some earlier games that attempted this, like Unreal in the prologue), cinematics never make the gameplay come to a screetching halt. All the little scripted events just happened quickly and at no point does the game take the controls away from the player. At no point it feels like you are being taken out of the game to watch a tiny movie, scripted events just happen briefly while you are still moving around and interacting with the game.

There's nothing i hate more in a game than losing control. I hate quick time events equally and i even despise stuff like animations when climbing stuff etc, which supposedly is there to make you feel like you are doing the action in question where as for me it has the opposite effect since your controls are locked for the duration of the animation which takes me out of the immersion.
I never really understood this praise. Sure, the game doesn't take control away from you, that is nice: it avoids all the stupid cutscene paralysis and developer forced character retardation that plagues a lot of games. But it's still essentially an unskippable cutscene (admittedly most of the examples of that I can think of are HL2 and the HL1 intro, so maybe it doesn't truly apply to HL1), just the developers let you look away or play with a physics object while the adults are talking.

I'll take skippability and protagonists who aren't mute over being allowed to play with some toys while the cutscene runs any day.
 

Beowulf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
2,027
Ho God no is this the same kind of shit Pillars of Eternity did with the backer's NPCs? That shit was atrocious why do they do this.

It's not as pronounced, and I don't really remember how many KS labeled logs are there beside this one.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,278
In Half Life (and some earlier games that attempted this, like Unreal in the prologue), cinematics never make the gameplay come to a screetching halt. All the little scripted events just happened quickly and at no point does the game take the controls away from the player. At no point it feels like you are being taken out of the game to watch a tiny movie, scripted events just happen briefly while you are still moving around and interacting with the game.

There's nothing i hate more in a game than losing control. I hate quick time events equally and i even despise stuff like animations when climbing stuff etc, which supposedly is there to make you feel like you are doing the action in question where as for me it has the opposite effect since your controls are locked for the duration of the animation which takes me out of the immersion.
I never really understood this praise. Sure, the game doesn't take control away from you, that is nice: it avoids all the stupid cutscene paralysis and developer forced character retardation that plagues a lot of games. But it's still essentially an unskippable cutscene (admittedly most of the examples of that I can think of are HL2 and the HL1 intro, so maybe it doesn't truly apply to HL1), just the developers let you look away or play with a physics object while the adults are talking.

I'll take skippability and protagonists who aren't mute over being allowed to play with some toys while the cutscene runs any day.

Half Life 2 broke the rule by having you dick arond doing nothing while some retarded NPC droned on and on about shit you didn't care, so it doesn't count.

Half Life 1 did it right, as i said. The intro being unskippable was dumb i agree, since once you saw it there was no reason to force it on the players if they didn't want it but the intro DOES matter a great deal, as it basically introduces to the real "character" in the game: the Black Mesa facility, so there is a reason why you had to go through it at least once.

Also i'm not sure i understand the problem with "mute" characters. You enjoy modern zoomer shooters with player controlled characters endlessly spewing out unfunny cringy shit non-stop? By all means, give me mute protagonists rather than that shit for the love of all that is holy. I know that this is a strawman since there are good voiced protagonists in shooters but the chances of pulling off a good voiced character weren't that great even in the heyday of the genre and it's certainly impossible today apparently as developers just can't seem to do it.
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2021
Messages
514
View attachment 36867
You vill live in ze pod... you vill eat ze TriOpslop... and you vill be happy...
Imagine not immediately turning the biostats tracker off :P

The Bioshock games are good as long as you have the right expectations.

True, but only if you have extremely low expectations

A completely autistic overanalysis if I've ever seen one.

And utter bullshit to boot! People really will see patterns in everything
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
10,145
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Also i'm not sure i understand the problem with "mute" characters.
What I mean is that if you go the hl1/hl2 style of cutscenes and character interaction, the protag basically must be mute (or talk to people while potentially facing the wall 20m away I guess). If you want to have a story heavy game that needs cutscenes/dialogue to be told I'd rather have the gameplay be occasionally interrupted and the protag being an actual character than the hl style, especially hl2 style.

You enjoy modern zoomer shooters with player controlled characters endlessly spewing out unfunny cringy shit non-stop? By all means, give me mute protagonists rather than that shit for the love of all that is holy.
I guess I don't play a lot of zoomer shooters? On the mainstream side I think halo and neudoom have no zingers, on the indie side I can't recall playing any with zingers either (prodeus, dusk, hedon, etc).

To be clear, I don't have a big preference for story heavy vs story lite in my shooters, both are enjoyable if done well. But if the game spends a lot of time on its story, I do prefer that the pc is a part of it and not a glorified camera lens. Although as SS1 shows, you can have a story heavy game with a mute protag without it being weird, but ss also doesn't have any cutscenes outside the intro.
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2021
Messages
514
The problem I have with the mute protagonist thing is that SS1 managed to have a silent protagonist without having a silent protagonist. The cutscenes were structured in a way where it was implied that we communicate, but we never see or hear the character talking. We do not see our deal with diego, nor do we see our job offer at the end - we are only told what happens after the fact and what we did.

I think this is extremely based as it allows the narrative to make sense while also keeping our character vague and our own (pretty much the only thing we know about the hacker is that he's male and has black hair). It is reasonable to assume our character can talk and is a (somewhat) normal human being, and Looking Glass were very intelligent to purposely not directly show him in a situation that would require speaking.

In the remake, going down the "true silent protagonist" route just makes the cutscene seem awkward and utterly destroys any suspension of disbelief. No real person would stay silent in that situation, even if they were the "silent type", and you can't really broker a deal without communicating in some form (at LEAST a handshake). Lampshading it by having diego saying "silent type, hey?" doesn't fix the problem, the cutscene still sucks.

By doing an interactive intro (big mistake, IMO) they essentially cut off their own foot - either they have a talking protagonist (somewhat of a no-no), or they make the protagonist an awkward unconvincing mute (also a no-no).

They went from the mature, well-crafted and nuanced intro of the original that cleverly crafted itself around implications, to an in-game mess that looks and sounds horrendously awkward. What they should have done was re-cut a new intro that was less obviously cheesy and maybe made something a bit more modern, while still keeping the general structure of the cutscene intact.

I actually really like the remake, but pretty much everyone universally agrees the new intro is vastly inferior to the old one. It's one of the areas of the game the developers absolutely botched.

This is yet another case of modern developers thinking they know better than the "old, crusty outdated ways of old games" and realising that they don't actually know anything at all about game design. It seems like someone on the design team (probably a diversity hire) said "Half-Life set the bar and now every game has a mute protagonist, so we should do that too, to 'modernise' the crusty old intro"

You enjoy modern zoomer shooters with player controlled characters endlessly spewing out unfunny cringy shit non-stop? By all means, give me mute protagonists rather than that shit for the love of all that is holy.

You do realise this is not a binary choice, right?

Throughout gaming, there have been many ways to have talking protagonists, some more and less cringey.

Most people seem to be totally fine with "mute protagonist during gameplay, third person camera and talking for cutscenes".
You seem to only like "truly mute protagonist".
Obviously there's also the System-Shock style "mute protagonist who is implied to be able to speak, we just don't see it"
A lot of mid-2010s AAA games would have the main character speak when it made sense to speak, like "hey, I'm at the objective, what do I do now?" etc type lines, often through a phone. I'm sure a lot of people (me included) are also okay with this as long as it's not overused and as long as the character doesn't sound like a brainless surfer or jock.
I don't think anyone likes the Deathloop "constantly spew unfunny one-liners" protagonist. That writing style has plagued movies and gaming for a decade now and it needs to stop. It was never funny.
 
Last edited:

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
10,145
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
In the remake, going down the "true silent protagonist" route just makes the cutscene seem awkward and utterly destroys any suspension of disbelief. No real person would stay silent in that situation, even if they were the "silent type", and you can't really broker a deal without communicating in some form (at LEAST a handshake). Lampshading it by having diego saying "silent type, hey?" doesn't fix the problem, the cutscene still sucks.
Didn't realize they did this in the remake, clear downgrade.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,278
Also i'm not sure i understand the problem with "mute" characters.
What I mean is that if you go the hl1/hl2 style of cutscenes and character interaction, the protag basically must be mute (or talk to people while potentially facing the wall 20m away I guess). If you want to have a story heavy game that needs cutscenes/dialogue to be told I'd rather have the gameplay be occasionally interrupted and the protag being an actual character than the hl style, especially hl2 style.

You keep bringing up HL/HL2 toghether when it's clear HL2 is a different matter and is out of place in this argument.

Half Life 1 is not a "story heavy game" with lots of "cuscenes/dialogue". You get some characters delivering exposition every now and then but for the most part it's all about visual story telling and not all of it involves scripted sequences. There are also a lot of static visual clues that roughly serve the same purpose as the scripted sequences. The game is for the most part as "silent" as the protagonist is.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
10,145
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Also i'm not sure i understand the problem with "mute" characters.
What I mean is that if you go the hl1/hl2 style of cutscenes and character interaction, the protag basically must be mute (or talk to people while potentially facing the wall 20m away I guess). If you want to have a story heavy game that needs cutscenes/dialogue to be told I'd rather have the gameplay be occasionally interrupted and the protag being an actual character than the hl style, especially hl2 style.

You keep bringing up HL/HL2 toghether when it's clear HL2 is a different matter and is out of place in this argument.

Half Life 1 is not a "story heavy game" with lots of "cuscenes/dialogue". You get some characters delivering exposition every now and then but for the most part it's all about visual story telling and not all of it involves scripted sequences. There are also a lot of static visual clues that roughly serve the same purpose as the scripted sequences. The game is for the most part as "silent" as the protagonist is.
I mostly agree but iirc even HL1 has several places (even excluding the intro, which we covered), where it really would make sense for gordon to have an actual convo with a scientist or a barney, but instead you just stand there mutely as they get ambushed from a vent or what have you.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,806
Location
The Satellite Of Love
Gordon is presumably speaking in HL1, you just don't hear it. When you interact with a guard or scientist, their lines indicate that you've said something to them. The only part I can think of where you should say something but explicitly don't is the bit in Office Complex where a guard is about to be attacked from behind by a zombie, but then again the player can just shoot the zombie as a gameplay substitute for Gordon warning the guard.

I think the only place where it stands out as awkward is the briefing in Lambda Core right before Xen, where the conversation with the scientist and the barney goes on way too long and Gordon's apparent silence starts to become odd. Sadly, pretty much every other interaction in HL2 is that briefing writ large, with the weird bonus that you're actively encouraged to throw items around and play with things in the room while people are talking and firmly ignoring your behaviour. And of course HL2 had the stupid "man of few words aren't you" type lines where people in-universe acknowledge that you're not saying anything when you should be - which I suppose is intended as a fourth wall joke but also damages the story's integrity.
 

Trithne

Erudite
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,200
Managed to confuse the triggers - After completing the antennae mission, the email to destroy the station seems to trigger when you enter the elevator back to exec (Maybe it triggers on going to the elevator to sec too). Went to R and set the station to blow, then forgot I'm supposed to try and escape in a lifepod, so I went back to Eng. The email came through again. So I went to Exec, and took the exec lift to Flight. Exiting the exec lift at Flight triggered a different email that isn't supposed to happen until after you try to use the lifepods.

Seems the email triggers break if you don't use specific elevators.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,628
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Digital Foundry review - "one of the finest remakes ever made":



https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...ellent-and-nightdives-most-ambitious-work-yet

The System Shock remake is excellent - and Nightdive's most ambitious work yet​

What made the original a genre-defining classic - and how does the remake modernise the game?

After years of uncertainty and anticipation, System Shock has made its triumphant return and this remake is even better than I could have hoped. This Unreal Engine remake carefully straddles the line between modern and retro gaming, delivering a heartfelt interpretation of a classic. To give a better sense of what developer Nightdive has accomplished, we'll compare the remake to the original, explore its history and share some thoughts on performance too. This might be one of the best remakes ever made.

System Shock was originally developed by Looking Glass Technologies, a small Massachusetts studio known for its innovation. They pioneered a genre now known as the immersive sim, where players are plunged into a world where choices matter, problems can be solved systematically and thinking outside the box can be critical to success. The original Ultima Underworld games contained the genesis of this idea, but System Shock would be the studio's masterpiece. If you've ever played Bioshock, Prey 2017 or Deus Ex, among many others, you can thank System Shock for paving the way.

System Shock's release in 1994 may have come as a shock to players who had discovered first-person gaming through Doom and Wolfenstein, but beneath the clunky interface and abstract visuals lay a game unlike anything else on the market at the time. Facing off against the AI Shodan, you'll explore the many floors of Citadel Station non-linearly, unravelling the mystery through audio logs and emails - a fresh concept at the time.

At your disposal, you have a cursor driven-interface complete with drag-and-drop inventory, a wide range of potential weapons, the ability to infiltrate cyberspace and much more. The items you choose to engage with and weapons you carry will determine your path through the game and those items often influence the environment and enemies in a systems-driven way. System Shock is all about atmosphere, exploration and tension. The 3D engine powering the game even supports slopes and various other room configurations that weren't possible in games such as Doom.

System Shock is a challenging game to return to given its clunky interface - even when playing the Enhanced Edition. That brings us to 2016, when Nightdive Studios launched a Kickstarter campaign to build a complete remake of the game. Following the release of an early Unity prototype, production stalled and was restarted in Unreal Engine 4, culminating in the 2023 release. It took years - and the blood, sweat and tears of its creators - but System Shock lives.

Remaking a game is never easy. On the one hand, players expect you to respect the game's legacy, but if you stick too closely to the original, you may fail to capture the imagination of new players. The System Shock remake expertly navigates potential pitfalls to produce an exceptionally memorable immersive sim that feels both fresh and reverent from visuals and audio to game design and the interface. We'll tackle each in turn, starting - in true DF fashion - with the graphics.


The bold colours and unusual shapes that give the original game its unique look have been retained, but expect changes to layouts and more where necessary.

The original System Shock is a strange game from a visual standpoint, with the juxtaposition of contrasting colors and oddly-shaped corridors creating a sense of unease that builds tension. The original is never as scary as Irrational's System Shock 2, but what's here is compelling and atmospheric. The remake follows in the footsteps of the original, updating the aesthetic where appropriate. Unlike most modern UE titles, System Shock eschews realistic materials and filtered textures in favor of pixelated, point-sampled surfaces complete with bold, garish hues. In many scenes, the original's flat surfaces have been reworked with copious amounts of geometry. It walks a strange line between modern, detailed visuals and a retro aesthetic, and it works.

I can't stress enough how expertly executed the materials choices are - Nightdive's artists managed to create a unique fusion old-school pixelated and modern PBR materials, while light behaves as you'd expect in a modern game with screen-space reflections, surface roughness determining specular intensity and so on. This could have been accomplished by pre-scaling textures using nearest neighbor scaling and then creating normal maps, specular maps and so on. Once properly set up, those materials display the expected specular response while retaining the retro pixel look - incredible.

I also appreciate the adherence to the basic shapes that define the original. System Shock is known for its meandering hallways filled with unorthodox, sometimes illogical, structures and the remake manages to capture this while improving the layouts, creating something more legible. Levels closely follow the original but make changes where appropriate without losing the original intent. Additional flourishes have been added to spice up the scenery, while large open spaces now feature props like railings, tables and chairs.


System Shock 2023 feels right - and that's key.

More than most remakes, System Shock does a great job of channeling any lingering memories you may have of the original 1994 release - it feels like returning home after years of absence, even if the visuals have been dramatically improved.

Lighting also plays a key role in building atmosphere - brightly-lit filaments brilliantly pierce the darkness, playing off the pixel textures around you. It's not just set dressing either, as you can shoot out lights and reduce ambient light levels in the process - which of course plays into the game's systems.

Another aspect worth mentioning is the weapons, both in terms of visual design and world integration. The starter pistol in any shooter needs to look and feel great, from Half-Life 2's Glock or Halo's M6D Magnum - racing through the corridors with a perfectly-proportioned, satisfying pistol adds so much to any shooter and System Shock nails this. Nightdive has also gone the extra mile and merged the first and third person perspectives into a cohesive whole with full body awareness. Basically, you can see your hands and feet just by looking down, which makes you feel more immersed in the world.


System Shock, like Half-Life 2 and Halo before it, features an iconic pistol that feels great to use.

The original game's famous wireframe cyberspace sections for hacking have also been redesigned, tapping into the original aesthetic but with improvements to readability and control. It now resembles something more in the vein of Descent or Forsaken, and plays like a true 6DOF shooter that looks and feels great.

Beyond the visuals, Citadel Station is presented as a seamless whole, with loading times occurring either when using lifts or during the transition into cyberspace. It's a huge, logically-constructed ship that you'll learn to navigate as you play.

System Shock is a PC-only release for now, with console editions planned but not dated, so I tested it on a few PCs with varying levels of performance.


The wireframe graphics of the original cyberspace sections have been swapped for a more modern, readable look - while controls have also been improved significantly.

Despite relatively barebones settings, with only textual hints as to the performance impact of different choices, the presence of DLSS 2 and relatively modest system requirements result in a game that is playable on a wide range of hardware. Visual quality isn't notably different from medium to ultra, with tweaks to SSR and ambient occlusion being most evident. The lowest setting, however, does eliminate shadow-casting lights and significantly degrades the visuals, so I recommend against this unless you're using a minimum spec PC.

On a top-of-the-line rig with RTX 4090 and Core i9 12900K, the remake can run at a full 8K resolution with max settings and without DLSS at a steady 120fps. GPU utilisation here is between 50 and 70 percent, so there's room for even higher frame-rates if desired.

I also tested the game on a laptop with an RTX 2080 Max-Q and Core i7 8750H, which produced a steady 60fps at 4K using DLSS balanced at ultra settings. For context, this mobile GPU resembles a desktop RTX 2060. Alex ran the game on an RTX 2070 Super system with a Ryzen 5 3600 processor, where 1440p 60fps was also possible with DLSS balanced and medium settings - with low GPU utilisation suggesting higher settings should be easily attainable.


There isn't a huge difference between medium and ultra settings, although low does come with some more noticable cutbacks.

Performance isn't an issue then, but unfortunately our old Unreal Engine 4 nemesis, shader compilation stutter, does make an unwanted appearance. The severity of these dips will vary depending on your CPU - the 12900K system exhibits comparatively shorter hitches than the Ryzen 5 desktop or the Core i7 laptop. On the less powerful machines, stutters can last more than 100ms, leading to the familiar hitching exhibited in nearly every Unreal Engine release these days.

Thankfully, while it is frustrating, these stutters are ultimately less frequent and slightly shorter than many recent higher-spec Unreal games, such as Jedi Survivor, The Callisto Protocol and Scorn, so it is less distracting but still a bummer. There are also loading hitches when using elevators or entering cyberspace but, given that these are effectively loading screens, it's perfectly acceptable.


Frame-time hitches can eclipse 100ms on mid-range systems - not ideal.

To summarise the graphical outlook then, Nightdive has successfully merged the lo-fi aesthetic of the original with modern rendering features to great success; it looks fantastic and is exactly what I'd hoped for. It also seems to offer fast performance with high frame-rates possible even on mid-spec PCs. Alas, shader compilation stutter is an issue like most other UE4 titles but, thankfully, the frequency and length of the stutters is less severe than usual.

That brings us to the audio - where the developers opted to branch out in a new direction, with a more ambient approach to audio with occasional fast-paced music tracks kicking in when combat heats up. I'm also fond of the voice samples assigned to enemies placed around Citadel Station - it's the kind of thing that was used heavily in games like Thief and System Shock 2 and it greatly improves the atmosphere. I wouldn't say the sound design is as memorable as the Dark Engine games, which have been burned into my brain, but it's still successful and important to the experience.


The multi-layer interface returns for the 2023 remake - to great effect.

Immersive sims are of course deeply rooted in the freedom afforded to players of classic pen and paper RPGs, with System Shock being designed to let the player tell their own story through direct action. It's all about cause and effect, but this relationship isn't explicitly spelled out. It asks the player to think about the items and how they could be used to progress through the sci-fi dungeon that is Citadel Station.

Enabling this interaction required a multi-layer interface, with an FPS-style character movement plus an adventure game style mouse cursor to interact with objects. This fusion greatly increased the interactivity possible within the world and it's something that could only have existed on the PC at this time - and it also became one of greatest challenges in adapting System Shock for a new audience.

After all, this is a game that demands the player to pay close attention. There is no floating waypoint nudging you in the right direction and your goals aren't explicitly spelled out. You'll need to listen carefully to audio logs, read through journals, poke and prod the various systems and generally learn each map layout. The further you progress, the more information the game tasks you with retaining.

Compared to the original, this remake does a fantastic job of polishing up the interface and organising everything into something that is easier to use without sacrificing depth. The dual-layer interface remains to some degree - press tab and a menu system appears divided up into easily-digestible sections including a grid-based inventory, a map system and a database. It's all cursor-driven, even when using a gamepad. You can still pick up or throw countless objects strewn about the Citadel.

It's this combination of interface design with a respectable level of freedom that impresses. I enjoyed Bioshock and it was clearly the right game for the era, but compared to earlier Shock titles, it was simplified to create something more easily digestible. I would instead describe System Shock as refined rather than simplified and that's an important distinction.

It's from all these details that I've come to the conclusion that this is one of the finest remakes ever made. It's on par with the best of the best, including Capcom's world-class Resident Evil remakes. It's clear that the development team fully understands what makes System Shock special and they took the time to ensure that everyone else can too. While this remake could never replace what the original accomplished, I do feel that it supersedes that original to become something all its own. It's both faithful yet completely new. It's the ultimate tribute and one that any fan of immersive sims needs to play right now.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,902
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Bioshock is the first time i ever saw a developer, in this case Levine, talk in an interview about how they were updating the formula to reach more people, or something to that effect. I'm sure developers said things like that long before but it was the first instance i ever encountered of a developer being so explicit about the need to dumb their game down to try to reach more people. This was a year or two before the game finally released, but what he said in that interview put me off so much i still haven't actually played Bioshock to this day. And i'm sure dumbed down or not it's probably better than some of the trash shooters i played over the years but i just can't. I would endlessly compare it to System Shock and i would just be pissed off every step of the way about what could have been but we didn't get because of muh broader audiences.

Oh you're gonna love American Krogan's analysis of the BioShock games - the rabbit hole goes pretty deep with that.
A completely autistic overanalysis if I've ever seen one.

Well the themes in the game are pretty autistically deployed ;)
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,842
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
W65ZKQx.png
That's a low bar x 1
 

potatojohn

Arcane
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
2,646
The more I play the more questions I have...

- Why does the crosshair have a shadow?
- The UI sounds slider in audio settings does nothing?
- The UI opacity slider in display settings does nothing?
- Why does changing shadows to different presets completely change the look of the game?
- What is my character doing when I "vaporize" items?
- Why can't I vaporize/recycle guns and other items?
- Why does the station have a hundred copies of Encyclopedia Britannica?
- Why does my character label handwritten notes as 'junk'?
 

Feyd Rautha

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
2,071
Location
Nestled atop the cliffs
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
How do they provide keys to us kickstarter backers?
Check backerkit or whatever, you may have to jump around a few pages within as well.
It took some days but after a few back and forths with the Nightdive support I got my key.

I'm thinking of playing it in tandem with the original. First a lever in the original and then the same level in the remake.
 

JDR13

Arcane
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
3,997
Location
The Swamp

The Bioshock games are good as long as you have the right expectations.

True, but only if you have extremely low expectations

Not necessarily. If you accept them for what they are (shooters with a light smattering of RPG elements and a decent narrative), I think they're better than most people here give them credit for. However, they don't belong in the same conversation as System Shock 1 or 2, and that's where the problem begins.
 

SharkClub

Prophet
Patron
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
1,583
Strap Yourselves In
Finished the game last night. Pretty good. As far as remakes go in regards to how the wider games industry handles them, this is way up there in terms of how faithful it ended up being to the original and while I would not say it "replaces the need to play the original", it is certainly worth playing as well as the original. Most of the problems it has that the original does not have are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, when looking at it with context of other remakes/reboots of classic games that completely butcher everything about them.

I mostly liked the art style and how they built the levels all blocky like in the original (to the point where the level design is almost completely lifted from the original, if it ain't broke; don't fix it). The biggest problems I had with the art design was the redesigns of a handful of the enemies (Cyborg Diego looks a bit too cartoony, the invisible mutants look way more generic instead of the flatworm/manta ray type things and most importantly the Cyborg Enforcer is now missing her voluptuous ass cheeks
decline.png
).

The levels look "correct" right up until the bridge, which unfortunately drops the obviously H.R. Giger-inspired aesthetic for a much more generic and indistinct sci-fi design (
decline.png
). Cyberspace certainly looks and sounds better, and as those were my biggest issues with the original's cyberspace that makes it a lot more fun to actually play (being able to see what you're looking at instead of a tangled mess of wireframes, and being able to experience feedback during combat is nice
incline.png
), as mentioned by others it does lock you into little combat arenas within it but I imagine these basically complete themselves if you play on the lowest Cyber difficulty so I honestly doubt it's actually worth giving any attention to complaints about it.

The final boss fight in cyberspace is really quite weak. As I mentioned in a previous post when I hadn't yet played the final boss fight, I said something like "I doubt it's actually worse than the original's", and I feel that way after completing it. It's equally bad for different reasons at worst. But importantly, the version of the fight in the remake has a lot more potential to actually be good if it wasn't so obviously undercooked. The cyberspace gun is weak as piss, having to fight the big ass cyberspace enemies by hiding behind a wall poking them with it for a minute straight is boring and there is a lack of feedback (audio and visual) throughout the fight. An easy way for them to improve this fight would be to make the cyberspace gun super strong so it just one shot kills every enemy in the fight, and then have the game spam way more of the weak ones at you that you can kill with one hit, so it's like playing Osu or some sort of aim-training game. SHODAN also needs some lines during the fight, either repurpose some from earlier in the game or get Terri Brosius back in the recording booth, she's way too quiet during the final showdown.

In the original you float in the middle of a featureless wireframe room while your screen shakes and you spam left click at her cyberspace form with no sounds, music or visual effects aside from SHODAN's face filling up the screen, it's about the most basic DPS race you could imagine and it is not a good ending to an otherwise great game, the only good part is that the original's fight with SHODAN is mercifully short. Both fights are pretty much equally bad (
rating_sawyer.gif
) but for different reasons, with a lot more room for improvement in the remake if NightDive actually bother to return to re-develop the fight post-launch (
gay.png
I know).

The opening, opening cutscene and ending cutscenes are all a bit nonsensical and don't really have the charm of the original. People have gone into detail on that stuff already and I can't say I disagree with the apparent problems the cutscenes have. I'm also quite sad that they tossed out the Tetracorp mech reference to Terra Nova that was in the original end cutscene (especially since as far as I know, NightDive also own Terra Nova?), along with the "old habits die hard" line being absent (
decline.png
).

All in all, the remake is decline from the original System Shock, but the decline itself is so infinitesimal compared to what we're used to that I hesitate to even call it as such, because a slight decline from the original is still major incline over most shit these days. It's such a slight decline that the remake of the game is still worth playing as well as the original, as part of a genre starved for good content. It's at least as good as a large chunk of its peers purely based on how much they adhered to System Shock 1's level design and mission structure, and because they did that so well it's actually better than a lot of them too.
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

Netch

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jul 22, 2021
Messages
92
The levels look "correct" right up until the bridge, which unfortunately drops the obviously H.R. Giger-inspired aesthetic for a much more generic and indistinct sci-fi design (
decline.png
).
That's super disappointing to hear... The bridge level is probably the coolest area visually in the original.

It's such a slight decline that the remake of the game is still worth playing as well as the original, as part of a genre starved for good content.
Do you really think the genre is starved for good content though? Some years ago I probably would have agreed with you, but honestly there are so many interesting and innovative indie immersive sims coming out these days that I think the genre is doing better than it has in decades.
 

SharkClub

Prophet
Patron
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
1,583
Strap Yourselves In
guarantee you all the people in here claiming there are no good indie immersive sims or acting surprised like JDR13 still haven't played CTRL-ALT-EGO, the fucking COWARDS.
I don't think anyone is claiming that indie imsims don't exist or that there aren't at least a few good ones, but I'd still say that for the most part it is an extremely underpopulated genre compared to the standard stuff like indie boomer shooters.

Brigand Oaxaca and Cruelty Squad were good!
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom