KickStarter System Shock 1 Remake by Nightdive Studios

[DraQ]

By comparison an Assault Rifle maxed takes around 17 shots to down a rumbler or 6 with Anti-Personnel rounds in SCP. I think they nerfed the base damage from 10 to 8 and the multiplier for specialized ammo from 4x to 3x, so the total damage from specialized rounds was almost cut in half. Also compare to the vanilla pistol which would do about 7 base damage with SW6 (though I think this was nerfed, now it does 5 or 6 damage at SW6). Still powerful because you just have tons of ammo and can shoot fast, but not gamebreaking.

At this point you're speaking mods, though.

As an efficient way to destroy ANYTHING, Fusion Cannon is pretty good so long as that anything isn't in your face.

That's the main problem with FC, projectiles are slow enough that almost everything CAN get in your face at which point it's suicidal to use. Another problem is that enemies that don't get in your face will have plenty of time to shoot you.

That's effectively no different from simply multiplying robot health by 4x. Basically playing musical chairs with your HP/damage values. None of this does anything to represent "hardness", if you want to represent that then you'll want a separate armor system that has flat damage reduction rather than a % damage reduction. Basically do what New Vegas did.

Not really. You'd still have energy and EMP damage that wouldn't be subjected to this kind of reduction.
Of course damage threshold is a superior way to represent any sort of armor and SS1 did use some sort of DT system IIRC, but I'm trying to work with what SS2 already has.

Yeah, well, I think its just that people expect high-tech weapons to be good vs. robots or something. Energy IS burning, and any energy/laser weapon in RL would excel against fleshy targets (hand-held laser weapons today can ignite clothing with a few seconds of sustained contact and flesh isn't too far beyond that) while shooting armored targets is completely useless if your laser isn't of the variety that is mounted on a nuclear-powered ship.

If you pulse your laser and focus it on small area of the target, you can explode small chunks, and if you repeat pulses fast enough, "drill" through the target by stacking several such mini-craters. As for power requirements portable energy weapons in general are problematic.

OTOH focused particle beam would be different enough to warrant separate damage type and it *would* rape electronics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski <- a guy that got accidentally headshotted with a synchrotron beam (and survived), BTW.

 

[Average Manatee]

At this point you're speaking mods, though.

It's a fairly well-recognized mod that I'm pretty sure almost everyone uses now. No need to cry about unbalanced weapons when SCP has it fixed for everything but Exotics and arguably the EMP rifle.

That's the main problem with FC, projectiles are slow enough that almost everything CAN get in your face at which point it's suicidal to use. Another problem is that enemies that don't get in your face will have plenty of time to shoot you.

Main fire mode is pretty quick. You're thinking of Death mode. Main fire mode is basically as fast as the grenade launcher. The AoE is also pretty small, literally smaller than melee range in fact. You can stand facing a wall that you can smack with a wrench, shoot it with the Fusion Cannon and not take damage. EDIT: Apparently SCP decreased the normal mode's radius, it was almost as large in Death mode in vanilla.

Not really. You'd still have energy and EMP damage that wouldn't be subjected to this kind of reduction.

No different from multiplying robot health by 4x and then making energy/emp 4x as powerful, then. It's still just playing musical chairs with HP values.

By your system of AP only doing .5x damage to robots you'd need around 20 AP bullets to take down assault robots. That's just ridiculous. I already detailed above how the Fusion Cannon is 5x as efficient against Rumblers (also applies to Assault robots since they are similar health, opposite damage type), your change would make the Fusion Cannon 20x as efficient. That's just ludicrously stupid and badly balanced. And an overcharged laser pistol shot would be around 6x as powerful as an AP bullet.

OTOH focused particle beam would be different enough to warrant separate damage type and it *would* rape electronics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski <- a guy that got accidentally headshotted with a synchrotron beam (and survived), BTW.

I imagine this is what the EMP "beam" is supposed to be

 

[DraQ]

It's a fairly well-recognized mod that I'm pretty sure almost everyone uses now.

Which isn't terribly relevant in the context of copying SS2 mechanics.

No different from multiplying robot health by 4x and then making energy/emp 4x as powerful, then. It's still just playing musical chairs with HP values.

Energy does hit organics, though, just like AP bullets do.

By your system of AP only doing .5x damage to robots you'd need around 20 AP bullets to take down assault robots.

Less than 2/3 of an AR magazine (36) to take down armoured military robot? Doesn't sound too bad, but ok, make it x1 against everything.

That's just ridiculous. I already detailed above how the Fusion Cannon is 5x as efficient against Rumblers (also applies to Assault robots since they are similar health, opposite damage type), your change would make the Fusion Cannon 20x as efficient.

Not against rumblers. They are soft so anti-personnel would mince them just like in vanilla.

That's just ludicrously stupid and badly balanced. And an overcharged laser pistol shot would be around 6x as powerful as an AP bullet.

No energy damage for lazorz.

I imagine this is what the EMP "beam" is supposed to be

Not really. EMP is intense radio frequency pulse. Fries anything with long enough conductors that can work as antennas.

This is particle beam, penetrates deeply into normal matter and fucks it up on microscopic level even if it doesn't deposit enough energy to melt or vaporize it. Basically radiation gun. Fucks living tissues badly, electronics even more so, bulk materials not much, but they may look worse for the wear, annelids could be resistant via multiple redundancies and SHODAN wanting to make them badass and space-compatible.

 

[Average Manatee]

It's a fairly well-recognized mod that I'm pretty sure almost everyone uses now.

Which isn't terribly relevant in the context of copying SS2 mechanics.

I'm fairly certain anyone copying SS2 mechanics can take 5 seconds to think about the deficiencies of the SS2 balance and spend a further 5 seconds googling the most popular community mod.

No different from multiplying robot health by 4x and then making energy/emp 4x as powerful, then. It's still just playing musical chairs with HP values.

Energy does hit organics, though, just like AP bullets do.

But again, you said you wanted to represent enemy "hardness". Nothing represents that just playing with damage modifiers. And in fact you are making them less "hard" by making them take only 100% more damage from AP rather than 200-300%.

By your system of AP only doing .5x damage to robots you'd need around 20 AP bullets to take down assault robots.

Less than 2/3 of an AR magazine (36) to take down armoured military robot? Doesn't sound too bad, but ok, make it x1 against everything.

No, that would be entirely disastrous. There are not enough bullets in the game to reduce their lethality by 75% (your original proposal was 87.5%) and have the game be anywhere near playable for standard weapons. The whole point of standard weapons is that they are decent against everything. SCP slightly decreases their decency against everything while greatly decreasing the specialization power of armor piercing/anti personnel bullets, which is exactly what it needs.

That's just ridiculous. I already detailed above how the Fusion Cannon is 5x as efficient against Rumblers (also applies to Assault robots since they are similar health, opposite damage type), your change would make the Fusion Cannon 20x as efficient.

Not against rumblers. They are soft so anti-personnel would mince them just like in vanilla.

Was only talking about the Fusion Cannon vs. Robots. The AR is already not overpowered vs. Robots when compared with the Fusion Cannon.

That's just ludicrously stupid and badly balanced. And an overcharged laser pistol shot would be around 6x as powerful as an AP bullet.

No energy damage for lazorz.

So basically you want robots to be invulnerable to everything but the EMP rifle and Heavy Weapons? May I remind you that these are also the enemies that explode when you melee them, and that there are swarms of them in Engineering?

I imagine this is what the EMP "beam" is supposed to be

Not really. EMP is intense radio frequency pulse. Fries anything with long enough conductors that can work as antennas.

This is particle beam, penetrates deeply into normal matter and fucks it up on microscopic level even if it doesn't deposit enough energy to melt or vaporize it. Basically radiation gun. Fucks living tissues badly, electronics even more so, bulk materials not much, but they may look worse for the wear, annelids could be resistant via multiple redundancies and SHODAN wanting to make them badass and space-compatible.

It's also a lot bigger than hand-held. As you say, it's a weapon best against electronics.

 

[Zombra]

Update #2

Jul 3 2016

System Shock U.I. & HUD Concepts

Though the U.I. and HUD are still in a conceptual phase and will not be updated in the first patch to the pre-alpha demo, we thought we would share some of our concepts. Keeping in mind that this is only one direction prior to the full user interface and user experience study that will take place after Kickstarter – we are happy with the stylistic direction that has been explored thus far.

There are many challenges in redesigning the interface and HUD of System Shock (1994). There are a few antiquated features that have to be either removed or completely replaced. One example is the toggle-able ability to see behind your head with a cybernetic implant. The original game built this in as an “implant” or “ability” because the turn radius was quite low, making the player vulnerable from mysterious attacks from behind. This is just one of many things we are looking into outside a fresh modern look.

The new HUD concepts shown here are based off of a minimal yet futuristic cyberpunk aesthetic. Concepts for the new HUD will be based on the idea that this interface that the Hacker is interacting with is projected on his retina. The grid, shown above is meant to keep all elements aligned as though on a surface before they are “bent” for the radical look.

 

[Durandal]

I hope to god the HUD is modular alongside the ability to turn the compass off like in the original
Let me decide with what useless shit I'll clutter my screen with

 

[DraQ]

I'm fairly certain anyone copying SS2 mechanics can take 5 seconds to think about the deficiencies of the SS2 balance and spend a further 5 seconds googling the most popular community mod.

And I'm fairly certain they won't do it. Because that's not the kind of thing devs do.

No different from multiplying robot health by 4x and then making energy/emp 4x as powerful, then. It's still just playing musical chairs with HP values.

Energy does hit organics, though, just like AP bullets do.

But again, you said you wanted to represent enemy "hardness". Nothing represents that just playing with damage modifiers. And in fact you are making them less "hard" by making them take only 100% more damage from AP rather than 200-300%.[/quote]
No since they would take much less damage from ordinary bullets.
Playing with modifiers may not be enough to represent hardness, but SS2 didn't even do whatever could be achieved by playing with modifiers. If your armored robot takes full damage from non-AP bullets, you've fucked up.

No, that would be entirely disastrous. There are not enough bullets in the game to reduce their lethality by 75% (your original proposal was 87.5%) and have the game be anywhere near playable for standard weapons. The whole point of standard weapons is that they are decent against everything.

The whole point of standard weapons is that they are run of the mill powder-based slugthrowers. They aren't rayguns, they don't cause massive explosions and they don't shoot worms. They are basic guns. And shooting a walking tank with your basic infantry rifle, pistol or shotgun is going to be somewhat suboptimal.
Besides, I don't see the tragedy caused by dropping standard weapons to the same level of utility as all the other weapon categories and massive mechs at least are rare enemies. They don't swarm you. You can afford to scrounge up AP ammo and think long and hard about whether you need to spend it at any given point.

The AR is already not overpowered vs. Robots when compared with the Fusion Cannon.

It can blow them to bits before they manage to fry you with laser or shoot a whole barrage of FC shots at your location. That's a biggie.

So basically you want robots to be invulnerable to everything but the EMP rifle and Heavy Weapons? May I remind you that these are also the enemies that explode when you melee them, and that there are swarms of them in Engineering?

What an outrage - massive killer robots taking heavy weapons to destroy? Who'd have thought?
As for protocol droids, they should probably be of type BASIC. They are not built for combat and shouldn't handle bullets any better than your ordinary laptop.
Although hearing them break out of those crates without any good means to kill the lot of them quickly does sound attractive gameplay-wise.

It's also a lot bigger than hand-held. As you say, it's a weapon best against electronics.

Should fare well against pretty much anything other than full annelids, and fry the latter as well with somewhat bigger ammo expenditure.

Besides, if it was up to me, I'd probably replace EMP rifle with a particle beam (it's fitting to have SOME energy weapon deal energy damage) shooting through enemies and replace FC with a souped up Magpulse doing EMP damage in fucking bursts.

Generally speaking if it was up to me to remake SS2, I would leave little of its original mechanics intact but would try to preserve as much of the atmosphere as possible. The opposite of what I'd do with SS1.

 

[Infinitron]

No, that would be entirely disastrous. There are not enough bullets in the game to reduce their lethality by 75% (your original proposal was 87.5%) and have the game be anywhere near playable for standard weapons.

You're talking about the need for having a viable "standard weapons build", RPG-style. It seems to me that DraQ basically wants the game to be more like a standard first person shooter, where you're expected to use a variety of weapons. There is no "standard weapons build" in Doom.

Making SS2 like that would of course require systems changes beyond changing weapons and enemies.

 

[DraQ]

Infinitron

I'd certainly kill hard skill requirements for at least most weapons.
A grunt non-retarded person should be able to fire any rifle or pistol they find provided it's operational and they have ammo for it.
Probabably GL as well.
They should also be able to swing any melee weapon, really, an alien crystal club is first and foremost a fucking club. You don't need cybermodules to brain someone with a fucking club.
I could reluctantly allow skill reqs for FC (because it looks like a complex thing to operate) and SFG. Probably not exotics because researching them should be enough to understand how they work and be able to use them.

As for making weapon skills do stuff, I'd probably split maintenance functionality (and skill requirements) between maintenance and them, and add some degradation and breakage modifiers to the mix. Maybe do similar thing with repair/modify.
General idea would be that anyone would be able to fire weapons, but keeping them in working condition without weapon skills would be another story.

 

[Average Manatee]

No since they would take much less damage from ordinary bullets.
Playing with modifiers may not be enough to represent hardness, but SS2 didn't even do whatever could be achieved by playing with modifiers. If your armored robot takes full damage from non-AP bullets, you've fucked up.

What you don't seem to get is that there is no such thing as 'full damage'. As long as modifiers are only percents, there's no difference between a robot that takes 100% of a 10 damage bullet or 50% of a 20 damage bullet.

Absolutely nothing is solved or changed just by arbitrarily messing with damage modifiers because its "realistic". HP isn't realistic to begin with. All of your changes just make the game flat out unplayable.

The whole point of standard weapons is that they are run of the mill powder-based slugthrowers. They aren't rayguns, they don't cause massive explosions and they don't shoot worms. They are basic guns. And shooting a walking tank with your basic infantry rifle, pistol or shotgun is going to be somewhat suboptimal.
Besides, I don't see the tragedy caused by dropping standard weapons to the same level of utility as all the other weapon categories and massive mechs at least are rare enemies. They don't swarm you. You can afford to scrounge up AP ammo and think long and hard about whether you need to spend it at any given point.

A Rifle is a perfectly reasonable anti-armor weapon. What do you think AP bullets are for? They punch holes in armor. Anti Tank rifles are completely normal real world weapons and its reasonable that some future rifle can accomplish something similar. Certainly the robots in the game aren't anywhere near as bulky or heavily armored as tanks.

Also there's no need for some huge sawyerist "all weapon types must have the same utility" approach. The stated aim of standard weapons is to be decent for everything. The aim of Energy/Heavy/Exotic weapons is to specialize.

The AR is already not overpowered vs. Robots when compared with the Fusion Cannon.

It can blow them to bits before they manage to fry you with laser or shoot a whole barrage of FC shots at your location. That's a biggie.

And the Laser Pistol, EMP gun, Grenade launcher, and Fusion Cannon all do the same and do it way, way better. So it's clearly not overpowered.

So basically you want robots to be invulnerable to everything but the EMP rifle and Heavy Weapons? May I remind you that these are also the enemies that explode when you melee them, and that there are swarms of them in Engineering?

What an outrage - massive killer robots taking heavy weapons to destroy? Who'd have thought?
As for protocol droids, they should probably be of type BASIC. They are not built for combat and shouldn't handle bullets any better than your ordinary laptop.
Although hearing them break out of those crates without any good means to kill the lot of them quickly does sound attractive gameplay-wise.

So instead of making a game where Standard Weapons was the optimal way to play (vanilla), or a game where SW/EW/HW are all pretty well balanced with strength and weaknesses (SCP), you want to make a game where everyone is forced to take Heavy Weapons. That's not even an RPG then.

 

[Average Manatee]

No, that would be entirely disastrous. There are not enough bullets in the game to reduce their lethality by 75% (your original proposal was 87.5%) and have the game be anywhere near playable for standard weapons.

You're talking about the need for having a viable "standard weapons build", RPG-style. It seems to me that DraQ basically wants the game to be more like a standard first person shooter, where you're expected to use a variety of weapons. There is no "standard weapons build" in Doom.

Making SS2 like that would of course require systems changes beyond changing weapons and enemies.

Oh, I agree. I'd even said just last page that it seemed like SS2 was designed that way from the beginning with how the weapons are balanced. But we're talking SS2 balance, not a hypothetical SS2 remake.

 

[Melan]

There are a few antiquated features that have to be either removed or completely replaced. One example is the toggle-able ability to see behind your head with a cybernetic implant. The original game built this in as an “implant” or “ability” because the turn radius was quite low, making the player vulnerable from mysterious attacks from behind. This is just one of many things we are looking into outside a fresh modern look.

Aaaaaand another innovative feature of SS1 goes down the drain due to rendering difficulties game designery. Bravo.

That's why it is hard to trust any developer promising a "faithful" remake. They'll sing that tune to get your attention, but as soon as they get what looks like a budget, they'll just keep on warping the game to fit "current sensibilities". And maybe that's how it is - history can't be repeated, and the classics really were a product of their time and place. This was my initial assumption, but then I foolishly got my hopes up, again.

 

[Ash]

It basically has no purpose now though...between mouselooking/no clunkyness and capable audio design a rear view mirror serves little purpose. Better off just turning it into an alert that tells you when you're being snuck up on, not that that is likely to happen at all because of the above.

 

[Durandal]

There are a few antiquated features that have to be either removed or completely replaced. One example is the toggle-able ability to see behind your head with a cybernetic implant. The original game built this in as an “implant” or “ability” because the turn radius was quite low, making the player vulnerable from mysterious attacks from behind. This is just one of many things we are looking into outside a fresh modern look.

Aaaaaand another innovative feature of SS1 goes down the drain due to rendering difficulties game designery. Bravo.

That's why it is hard to trust any developer promising a "faithful" remake. They'll sing that tune to get your attention, but as soon as they get what looks like a budget, they'll just keep on warping the game to fit "current sensibilities". And maybe that's how it is - history can't be repeated, and the classics really were a product of their time and place. This was my initial assumption, but then I foolishly got my hopes up, again.

I'm playing SS1 right now, and I've never used it thanks to the mouselook mod. It's a waste of energy too. Though they could instead change it into a motion detector or radar which roughly displays enemy positions if they are going in that direction.

 

[DraQ]

What you don't seem to get is that there is no such thing as 'full damage'. As long as modifiers are only percents, there's no difference between a robot that takes 100% of a 10 damage bullet or 50% of a 20 damage bullet.
Absolutely nothing is solved or changed just by arbitrarily messing with damage modifiers because its "realistic". HP isn't realistic to begin with.

Multipliers are relative, but x1 is meant to represent normal damage. It helps make HPs represent something - instead of being completely arbitrary number they at least have some meaning relative to other HPs.
HPs are a bad system and armor without DTs is a bad system, but you can make them worse and SS2 did.

All of your changes just make the game flat out unplayable.

As opposed to what? Being flat out unplayable only if you go exotics or energy? If you run around with lazorz arachnids will give you nightmares. Why shouldn't mechs give you nightmares if you run around with small arms?
You could still destroy mechs with AP bullets and do it fairly fast - around 2s given AR's rate of fire (that would also make neuro-reflex dampening quite a useful buff and AR's auto mode not just a wasteful curiosity). It's just that AP bullets would be scarce enough to make you think long and hard about what you should be taking on.

A Rifle is a perfectly reasonable anti-armor weapon.

Then go shoot some tanks with an AK. I'll notify the next of kin.

What do you think AP bullets are for? They punch holes in armor.

Anti Tank rifles are completely normal real world weapons

Were. Tank armor has long since got beyond the point where handheld ballistics got useless against it. You need something like an RPG to destroy it which would be a heavy weapon in SS2.
And of course robots would be lighter armoured - that's why AP and even standard bullets would actually deal damage to them.

Also there's no need for some huge sawyerist "all weapon types must have the same utility" approach.

Of course not, sawyerists are dumb.
Different weapon types should obviously have different utility, it's just that this utility should be comparable in terms of attractiveness.
SS2 is a (failed) sawyerist approach - mech are weak against mech damage, organics are weak against organic damage, hurr durr. It's just that damage types are badly distributed against weapon types.

SS1 had mechs that were tough SOBs all around and EMP was narrowly specialized to take them out because all the other weapons worked poorly against them.

The stated aim of standard weapons is to be decent for everything. The aim of Energy/Heavy/Exotic weapons is to specialize.

Stated where?
The only think that supports this interpretation is that non-OSAs can use pistol right off the boat.

And the Laser Pistol, EMP gun, Grenade launcher, and Fusion Cannon all do the same and do it way, way better. So it's clearly not overpowered.

FC doesn't do the same because it gives the target ample time to fire at you. EWs are better but their projectiles (and why the fuck does laser even fire projectiles? it fired honest beams in SS1) are still slower than bullets.
With AR you can just shoot a robot apart as soon as you can aim at it.

So instead of making a game where Standard Weapons was the optimal way to play (vanilla), or a game where SW/EW/HW are all pretty well balanced with strength and weaknesses (SCP), you want to make a game where everyone is forced to take Heavy Weapons. That's not even an RPG then.

No, I want a game where different builds piss themselves in gibbering terror when facing different opponents. HW guy would cry when faced with a bunch of spiders or grubs up in their face.
At least big mechs don't violate your personal space so you can get away with prolonging encounter against them if you have cover.

 

[DraQ]

It basically has no purpose now though...between mouselooking/no clunkyness and capable audio design a rear view mirror serves little purpose. Better off just turning it into an alert that tells you when you're being snuck up on, not that that is likely to happen at all because of the above.

Features don't exist in vacuum. If there is something that can sneak up on you and fuck you up, then sensaround makes sense. SS1 had certain labyrinth with continuously spawning autobombs where sensaround simply saved your ass even in SSportable with its mouselook (amusingly it was also the one place where terribad railgun shone). In other places it wasn't terribly useful even without mouselook.

 

[Infinitron]

Kicktraq projection is now available:

Still seems too high though, it'll take a while longer to stabilize.

 

[Destroid]

Cut that projection in half and you have something reasonable.

 

[MuscleSpark]

something reasonable

Got it. I have an internet degree in statistic cartography so you will find the following estimate to be much more accurate.

 

[Beastro]

A Rifle is a perfectly reasonable anti-armor weapon.

Only if you're facing fucking idiots that followed Sparky's advice and fielded m111s.

Were. Tank armor has long since got beyond the point where handheld ballistics got useless against it.

Wtf is he talking about? It's not like tanks were created specifically to defeat small arms.

Anti-tank rifles existed on the extreme edge of what a person could shoot that could defeat 1930s armour and they were quickly rendered obsolete from the sheer march of natural tank development.

 

[Average Manatee]

As opposed to what? Being flat out unplayable only if you go exotics or energy? If you run around with lazorz arachnids will give you nightmares. Why shouldn't mechs give you nightmares if you run around with small arms?

You can easily do 100% of the game with an energy build. Exotics are off the table since you don't even start with them. Heavy weapons, well, obviously those aren't intended to be the only weapon used.

You could still destroy mechs with AP bullets and do it fairly fast - around 2s given AR's rate of fire (that would also make neuro-reflex dampening quite a useful buff and AR's auto mode not just a wasteful curiosity). It's just that AP bullets would be scarce enough to make you think long and hard about what you should be taking on.

You seem to think there is way more ammo in the game than there actually is. You'd need hundreds more bullets to be able to use that much per target. Where does this ammo come from?

A Rifle is a perfectly reasonable anti-armor weapon.

Then go shoot some tanks with an AK. I'll notify the next of kin.

Were. Tank armor has long since got beyond the point where handheld ballistics got useless against it. You need something like an RPG to destroy it which would be a heavy weapon in SS2.
And of course robots would be lighter armoured - that's why AP and even standard bullets would actually deal damage to them.

Small robots that walk around corridors are not tanks. Not even close to tanks. Needing to be mobile on legs greatly decreases the amount of armor you can give it to the point where its basically paper. You couldn't even consider it comparable to a weak IFV. And bear in mind that we are fighting in CQC situations where bullets are substantially better than on a battlefield.

Also there's no need for some huge sawyerist "all weapon types must have the same utility" approach.

Different weapon types should obviously have different utility, it's just that this utility should be comparable in terms of attractiveness.
SS2 is a (failed) sawyerist approach - mech are weak against mech damage, organics are weak against organic damage, hurr durr. It's just that damage types are badly distributed against weapon types.

You're not changing this. You're making this even more the case. Standard weapons and exotics weak against mech, lasers and heavy weapons weak and overkill respectively vs. organic. Instead of 3 overspecialized weapon types we have 4 overspecialized weapon types.

The stated aim of standard weapons is to be decent for everything. The aim of Energy/Heavy/Exotic weapons is to specialize.

Stated where?
The only think that supports this interpretation is that non-OSAs can use pistol right off the boat.

Assault Rifle's description says "average damage and armor penetration", i.e. middle of the line, with AP/Anti-Pers bullets modifying that.

And the Laser Pistol, EMP gun, Grenade launcher, and Fusion Cannon all do the same and do it way, way better. So it's clearly not overpowered.

FC doesn't do the same because it gives the target ample time to fire at you. EWs are better but their projectiles (and why the fuck does laser even fire projectiles? it fired honest beams in SS1) are still slower than bullets.
With AR you can just shoot a robot apart as soon as you can aim at it.

wat. You think the projectile time matters in SS2? SS2 is not that fast of a game. Only the FC's alt fire is slow enough to actually hinder, and you can flat out dodge the robot's attacks with ease.

So instead of making a game where Standard Weapons was the optimal way to play (vanilla), or a game where SW/EW/HW are all pretty well balanced with strength and weaknesses (SCP), you want to make a game where everyone is forced to take Heavy Weapons. That's not even an RPG then.

No, I want a game where different builds piss themselves in gibbering terror when facing different opponents. HW guy would cry when faced with a bunch of spiders or grubs up in their face.
At least big mechs don't violate your personal space so you can get away with prolonging encounter against them if you have cover.

And that already happens, except Standard Weapons is supposed to be the generalist weapon type. All you want to do is turn SW into the next Exotics but with more ammo. What would even be the point of Exotics if SW was already the anti-organic weapon type?

Really, you should go mod this yourself into SS2 and come back with some proof of how well it functions. Because it won't. Consider that the very first robot blocking access to engineering will take something like 50 AP rounds or 100 normal rounds to defeat. That's like 2x the amount of ammunition that exists on the Med/Sci deck, assuming you've used absolutely none of it on the Hybrids.

 

[Average Manatee]

There are a few antiquated features that have to be either removed or completely replaced. One example is the toggle-able ability to see behind your head with a cybernetic implant. The original game built this in as an “implant” or “ability” because the turn radius was quite low, making the player vulnerable from mysterious attacks from behind. This is just one of many things we are looking into outside a fresh modern look.

Aaaaaand another innovative feature of SS1 goes down the drain due to rendering difficulties game designery. Bravo.

That's why it is hard to trust any developer promising a "faithful" remake. They'll sing that tune to get your attention, but as soon as they get what looks like a budget, they'll just keep on warping the game to fit "current sensibilities". And maybe that's how it is - history can't be repeated, and the classics really were a product of their time and place. This was my initial assumption, but then I foolishly got my hopes up, again.

I'm playing SS1 right now, and I've never used it thanks to the mouselook mod. It's a waste of energy too. Though they could instead change it into a motion detector or radar which roughly displays enemy positions if they are going in that direction.

Meh, I still like the idea even if I don't use it (which is mostly because it causes too much lag at higher resolutions).

A motion detector or radar is too simple and makes the game too easy. If I had to change it I'd change it to a warning notification that fires if movement is visually detected behind you. Doesn't really make sense as an in-world device but for an environment that is 100% enemies it works.

 

[DraQ]

Wtf is he talking about? It's not like tanks were created specifically to defeat small arms.

Anti-tank rifles existed on the extreme edge of what a person could shoot that could defeat 1930s armour and they were quickly rendered obsolete from the sheer march of natural tank development.

You answered yourself.

 

[Beastro]

Wtf is he talking about? It's not like tanks were created specifically to defeat small arms.

Anti-tank rifles existed on the extreme edge of what a person could shoot that could defeat 1930s armour and they were quickly rendered obsolete from the sheer march of natural tank development.

You answered yourself.

T'is called being facetious.

 

[DraQ]

Heavy weapons, well, obviously those aren't intended to be the only weapon used.

Obviously.

You seem to think there is way more ammo in the game than there actually is. You'd need hundreds more bullets to be able to use that much per target. Where does this ammo come from?

I checked and there are two replicators in game that sell AP rounds even without hacking.
And then there are standard rounds.

Small robots that walk around corridors are not tanks. Not even close to tanks. Needing to be mobile on legs greatly decreases the amount of armor you can give it to the point where its basically paper. You couldn't even consider it comparable to a weak IFV. And bear in mind that we are fighting in CQC situations where bullets are substantially better than on a battlefield.

Like I said, that's why you *can* damage them with rifle or pistol even without specialized AP rounds.

You're not changing this. You're making this even more the case. Standard weapons and exotics weak against mech, lasers and heavy weapons weak and overkill respectively vs. organic. Instead of 3 overspecialized weapon types we have 4 overspecialized weapon types.

WEak against mech is still better than useless. And yes, 4 overspecialized weapon types are better than 3 overspecialized weapon types and one that's IWIN button.

Assault Rifle's description says "average damage and armor penetration", i.e. middle of the line, with AP/Anti-Pers bullets modifying that.

See above - you can kill a military assault bot with it. That's pretty decent armor penetration in my book.

wat. You think the projectile time matters in SS2? SS2 is not that fast of a game.

No, but security bot's lasers are fast projectiles. And assault bot's fusion is slow, but has wide kill radius. With AR I can ensure that I'm not getting shot at in mere split second, with FC I can't.

Really, you should go mod this yourself into SS2 and come back with some proof of how well it functions. Because it won't. Consider that the very first robot blocking access to engineering will take something like 50 AP rounds or 100 normal rounds to defeat.

Last time it was 20 rounds. For assault bot that has 2x the HP of a maintenance one.

There are a few antiquated features that have to be either removed or completely replaced. One example is the toggle-able ability to see behind your head with a cybernetic implant. The original game built this in as an “implant” or “ability” because the turn radius was quite low, making the player vulnerable from mysterious attacks from behind. This is just one of many things we are looking into outside a fresh modern look.

Aaaaaand another innovative feature of SS1 goes down the drain due to rendering difficulties game designery. Bravo.

That's why it is hard to trust any developer promising a "faithful" remake. They'll sing that tune to get your attention, but as soon as they get what looks like a budget, they'll just keep on warping the game to fit "current sensibilities". And maybe that's how it is - history can't be repeated, and the classics really were a product of their time and place. This was my initial assumption, but then I foolishly got my hopes up, again.

I'm playing SS1 right now, and I've never used it thanks to the mouselook mod. It's a waste of energy too. Though they could instead change it into a motion detector or radar which roughly displays enemy positions if they are going in that direction.

Meh, I still like the idea even if I don't use it (which is mostly because it causes too much lag at higher resolutions).

A motion detector or radar is too simple and makes the game too easy. If I had to change it I'd change it to a warning notification that fires if movement is visually detected behind you. Doesn't really make sense as an in-world device but for an environment that is 100% enemies it works.

Massive gameplay advantage of sensaround over any form of motion tracker is that it doesn't tokenize information and requires player's actual attention.
In case anyone here didn't pick that up yet,
EXCESSIVE TOKENIZATION FUCKING SUCKS AND IS A CANCER THAT EATS GAME INDUSTRY,
ahem.