Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Tactics Ogre or Final Fantasy Tactics

Ugrok

Novice
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Messages
28
I am lucky enough to now own these 2 games. I only played Final Fantasy Tactics Advance on the GBA, and thought it was pretty cool ; but some guy told me that FFT on the PSX was a must ; then another friend added "But its nothing in comparison of Tactics Ogre" ...

Im looking for a deep tactical RPG, which one should i play? Im afraid of FFT being too childish (as most of the FF are) ; is Tactics Ogre better?
What about the available classes, weapons, etc ???

I need your help old school gamers !
 

Zetor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
1,706
Location
Budapest, Hungary
First off, neither of those is 'oldschool'. TO was made in 1995 for the SNES, then ported to the PSX in 1997; FFT was released for the PSX in 1997. The 'oldschool' label applies to Gold Box games, or maybe Shining Force if you're a console d3wd. :p
(aside: the design team was (almost) the same between the games and the lead designer is the same guy who did Vagrant Story later.)

*cough* Yeah, I played both games to the end... here's a (biased, inaccurate, etc) comparison for ya.

Short version: TO > FFT.

Long version:

Classes
TO has classic fantasyish units.. males and females along with the three different alignments (with lots of overlaps) have different class choices and your class choices define your character's skills AND abilities. You can switch classes at any point, as long as you fulfill the ability point requirements (or stuff like "at least 30 kills" for the berzerker or "at most 10 kills" for the priest) for the class. For example, in TO you can recruit a soldier and turn him into a ninja when eligible, then eventually a dragoon (if their alignment is right).. or you can turn them into a knight, then a dragoon. The first dragoon will be a lot faster and more accurate (esp. with magic), but the second one will hit harder. This is especially important with hybrid classes (valkyrie, dragoon, angel knight, etc) that can fight AND cast.
In FFT you have a similar unit setup (no gender/alignment distinction), but your characters' past class progression doesn't matter much; the effect on their abilities is negligible, and you generally only use one or two skills from your past classes anyway. Here to choose a new class, you have to level the unit in their previous class (level 3 chemist -> white mage) However, there are plenty of story NPCs in FFT that are far more powerful than your soldiers, so you'll usually end up using them instead. TO has similar NPCs too, but they aren't as prevalent or uber.
You can recruit 'monsters' in both games, but they're really a novelty thing, soldiers are much more powerful.

Equipment
In FFT you'll typically go for the strongest armor and weapons for everyone, yada yada. In TO, more expensive / rarer stuff isn't always better.. sure, weapons hit harder and armor has more AC, but the items also weigh more, making a character with them slower. For tanks that isn't a big deal, but for recon units, you want them to be as lightly encumbered as possible.

Battlefields
FFT has a rotatable 3d battlefield that's kinda small. TO has a much larger isometric battlefield (with fewer levels of elevation, but what'ya gonna do?), making flanking, proper support, etc. necessary. TO also always has 10 player units in battle compared to FFT's 3-6 at a time.

Difficulty
FFT is waaaay easy. There are a few tough battles, but there are so many broken / unbalanced things in the game that it's very easy to just exploit your way through them (for example, kiting big W in the Wiegraf fight, then using 1000 accumulates to one-shot him; using TG Cid in any battle; using calculators or properly-setup samurai; etc).
TO is very harsh, especially for newcomers to the genre. If you don't follow the golden rule (keep your entire squad within 1 level of each other, maybe 2 for healers), you are going to get your ass kicked, repeatedly. Also, if someone in TO dies, they're gone for good (at least until you get a resurrect spell halfway through the game, but that isn't a panacea). You can make mistakes in FFT and get away with it, but TO punishes you severely.
FFT typically only has "kill all" battles, with the occasional "get to X" or "save Y"; TO has a much larger variety (sometimes it's also non-trivial, like keeping the beastmaster's griffins alive and getting him low on HP, making him surrender and join you)
To FFT's credit, I kinda dig the spellcasting / aim system, it's a pity instant spells are generally better to use (especially calculator attacks).

Frustration factor
TO's learning curve is rather unforgiving. Losing 1-2 characters per battle will soon lead to annoyance, since you'll have to hire level 1 characters to replace the ones that died, and build them up in random encounters or training battles ... again. You also have to keep an eye on morale, and the only way to keep it high is to have the characters level while on a battleground (ie. not in training). Some maps are just plain unfair, and might result in you losing 1-2 characters even if you're doing the best you can. And if you have underleveled characters, they'll barely be able to do anything at all and will get 2-3-shotted by the baddies.
FFT isn't all happy happy joy joy either; there is one battle where you have to fight a very strong ambush force that can potentially gang up and kill you in one turn, and you're given no advance warning, nor any place to train up after you get to the stage right before it. Save often, and in different slots.™
FFT is a lot less annoying than TO, but remember, all battles are winnable with the proper combination of classes, items and skills. If you don't happen to possess them at the time... tough.

RPGishness
In my experience, Tactics Ogre is the ONLY console game that actually has you make important ingame decisions that have ingame effects: immediate (characters joining you), mid-term (branching campaign, different characters showing up later) and long-term (what the game will say about X after you win the game). FFT has you run through a typical consoleish fantasy plot... not to say that TO's is a lot better, but at least in TO, you have a say in how it turns out.


So yeah, TO wins. But definitely play FFT, with all its flaws, it's still one of the best console games out there.



-- Z.
 

Quigs

Magister
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Messages
1,392
Location
Jersey
TO.

1. Final fantasy sucks ass.

2. Fewerclasses in FF.

3. Fewer REAL choices in FF.
 

Jason

chasing a bee
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
10,737
Location
baby arm fantasy island
I agree with Zetor for the most part, not surprising since I'm a TO fanboy too. Tactics Ogre is definitely the better choice for CRPG and/or strategy fans because of the things he noted as well as the lack of (or at least greatly toned down) cutsieness compared to FFT. TO will be a breath of fresh air after FFT Advance.

One complaint I have about TO is the way important choices are handled. Sometimes, an NPC will ask you a question and you'll have only two responses to choose from. Unforunately, you can only see the first 4 or 5 words of the responses so I wasn't always sure what exactly I was choosing. Maybe me just no smart enough, but it was kind of annoying when I would choose one of two seemingly ambiguous responses and have one of my team members leave because they disagreed with my choice.

Having said that, Tactics Ogre is definitely OOTBFGOAT for me. You should also grab the GBA version because it adds some nice tweaks to the formula, like earning badges in combat that lead to improved abilities and better classes to choose from.
 

Ugrok

Novice
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Messages
28
Thank you very much for the nice answers.


Tactics Ogre, here i come ! In fact i already created my char, but i must say i didnt quite master the whole "natural deity" process. Oh well, ill see how that turns out...



Ill try the "Knight of Lodis" version on an emulator...
 

RuySan

Augur
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
777
Location
Portugal
if the codexers say that TO is a good game...i guess i have to dl a PSX emulator...(any hints how to make it work proberly?)
 

Jason

chasing a bee
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
10,737
Location
baby arm fantasy island
Don't worry about the deity choosing thing at the beginning. It raises and lowers your starting stats slightly according to your answers, but not enough to matter in the long run. Choosing classes over the course of the game is much more important.
EDIT: I use ePSXe to run it and didn't have to do anything special. If you do have any trouble, try different graphics or sound plug-ins.
 

RuySan

Augur
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
777
Location
Portugal
it's better than the one for nintendo 64. which one should i play?

i ask this because n64 emulators are easier to make it work and n64 graphics are much nicer
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
Location
Yes
How do each Tactics Ogre stack up?

I wanna do emulated ones before I buy shit
 

Deacdo

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 24, 2004
Messages
585
Tactics Ogre (PSX/SNES) is the better tactical game, but Final Fantasy Tactics is more fun, IMO.

Get both.

TO for the GBA and FFTA for the GBA aren't nearly as good as either of the home console games.
 

dipdipdip

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 19, 2003
Messages
629
Deacdo said:
Tactics Ogre (PSX/SNES) is the better tactical game, but Final Fantasy Tactics is more fun, IMO.

Get both.

TO for the GBA and FFTA for the GBA aren't nearly as good as either of the home console games.

Yeah, I agree with everything said here. I think TO would go over better with the Codexers, though, because of its having more depth and branching storylines/multiple endings.
 

Ugrok

Novice
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Messages
28
Well, after my first TO session i must say i had a really good time. You get to love those small characters. But ! Just when i begin to like one of them he always dies a painful death ("Are these my intestines hanging out of my belly?") !
I did maybe 5 or 6 fights, i always lose 1 or 2 soldiers per fight... Is that normal ?

My main problem is with recruiting. The new recruits always start as lvl 1, so during the battle they get "one shoted".

Any way to level them fast ? Doing random battles? I saw there was a "training" option, can i use this to lvl my new recruits? I bet there are good ways to do so ; i thought about putting 5 lvl 1 versus 1 lvl 6 and beating the crap out of him to gain major xp... But with the counter attacks the lvl 6 would wipe them all...

I got things to plan !
 

Jason

chasing a bee
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
10,737
Location
baby arm fantasy island
Definitely use the training option if you're losing people in battle. Training battles aren't "real" battles so deaths don't count against you (the character doesn't die permantly). Have the weaker characters attack the stronger ones with ranged attacks to avoid the counterattacks. Use height advantages and attack from behind whenever possible to increase the chances of landing a blow. If you have spellcasters, try to match their natural element with the spell elements (a fire aligned wizard should use Fireburn, etc) to be more effective. Also, use opposite elements to cause more damage (fire against water, wind against earth, etc).
If you're feeling lazy, set the training controls to Com (AI controlled) for both teams and go do something else while the little bastards whack away at each other.
 

dipdipdip

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 19, 2003
Messages
629
Yeah, that's definitely something that is "old school" about TO -- you're going to need to do a considerable amount of leveling up between fights here and there.
 

LCJr.

Erudite
Joined
Jan 16, 2003
Messages
2,469
I had Tactics Ogre on PSX and just never could bring myself to finish it. It had a lot of potential but the constant training was dull. The lack of level limits or penalty for spending months training meant you could level up to the point everything was a cakewalk. Usually going up 10 levels each chapter was enough.

If you're feeling lazy, set the training controls to Com (AI controlled) for both teams and go do something else while the little bastards whack away at each other.

Didn't work so good on the PSX version. The little bastards wouldn't shut up and you'd come back and there would be some stupid quote you'd have to clear to resume the training.
 

LCJr.

Erudite
Joined
Jan 16, 2003
Messages
2,469
is the PSX version the same as the SNES more or less?

Far as I know there wasn't a SNES version, at least in the US anyway. You're probably thinking of Ogre Battle. BTW shouldn't this discussion be in the strategy forum?
 

Jason

chasing a bee
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
10,737
Location
baby arm fantasy island
Tactics Ogre came out originally in Japan on the SNES but on only later released in the US on the PSX. The SNES game that came out in the US is Ogre Battle, a different branch of the same series. The N64 one is also an Ogre Battle game.
 

dipdipdip

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 19, 2003
Messages
629
To directly answer LG's question, the psx and snes versions are identical, to my knowledge. The visuals were in no way updated for the psx, and the only significant difference is that the psx version has loading times that the snes version didn't. You'll probably have to hunt down a fan-made translation patch or FAQ, though.
 

Higher Game

Arcane
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
13,666
Location
Female Vagina
Both games are excellent and worth playing, and Final Fantasy Tactics has one of the best stories seen in a Squaresoft game. I prefer Tactics Ogre's more difficult gameplay more, but FFT has a more polished feel to it. For newbies, FFT is better. If you're a veteran of tactics games, play Tactics Ogre.

Preferably, play both, since they're both quite good. Check out the Front Mission series if you like them.
 

Jason

chasing a bee
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
10,737
Location
baby arm fantasy island
I usually fantasize about Front Mission whenever I have sex with giant robots. I know it's wrong, but it's the only way I can keep it up.

Pat, if you're going to use an emulator, you might want to try the TO for the Gameboy first because it's much easier to find on the interweb and it's a much smaller download.
 

Zetor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
1,706
Location
Budapest, Hungary
Your choice of element only really matters if you want to employ a Witch later on. If you make sure that everyone (or most everyone) on your team is of a particular element, you can spam the "battlefield chants" (any of the Goddess' names) to turn the entire battlefield to favor the chosen element. Of course this means that the enemy units of that element will be stronger too, so be sure you can eliminate them ASAP. (Wind seems to be the best choice here, since you can also use the valkyrie spell Storm to change the battlefield, plus valks fight better in storms) You'll also find elemental weapons later on, they basically make your melee/ranged attacks magical attacks of the appropriate element.

Spells are heavily dependent on the battlefield's dominant element. They'll have a larger AOE, do more damage... etc. They also do more damage vs units of the opposite element (duh). Like baby arm said, have your casters use spells of their own elements and try to stand on a spot that has a bonus to that element (not always doable, depends on map).

Early on, you'll want everyone to have a ranged weapon. My usual setup at the beginning of the game is Short Sword / Short Bow / Leather Armor / Healing Herb.. you don't have clerics yet, so having accessible healing is important. After you turn some of your females into Archers and Clerics, you can start switching your meleers (who should be berzerkers or knights, and valkyries eventually) to heavier weapons.

Some classes favor a particular weapon, this becomes apparent from a different animation they have with said weapon type. Knights and dragoons like swords (kek), zerkers like axes, archers like bows (give your crossbows to other units), dragon and beast tamers like whips, valkyries and angel knights like spears.
If someone with a bow has the higher ground, they can usually hit targets farther than their maximum range, generally one extra tile for one level of elevation. Be careful when you're facing archers high above you; I find that flying units and spells work best against them.
Spears can be devastating against tight groups of enemies. Take this for example:
(X)(A)(B) where X and B are armed with a spear.
If unit X attacks unit B, unit A gets hit as well and unit B will counterattack first, hitting unit A again. If unit B has a whip, he'll counterattack and ONLY hit unit A, making this tactic nasty against bosses like Ozma.

Training is a pain, yes. In my current game I haven't had a single training session yet, but that's because I was extremely cautious in all battles and knew exactly what to avoid. :P What I prefer actually is levelling up characters in random encounters (to raise their morale). Just bring 7-8 solid characters into the encounter along with 2-3 newbies and have the newbies stay back and throw stones at the high-level characters' backs. They'll usually hit and get good xp. If you're feeling gutsy, you can get them to finish off the wounded enemies for crazy amounts of xp, as well. In general, try to let your less developed characters get killing blows. Don't go overboard and have one person deathblow every enemy on the map, or you'll get an MVP award (extra level) that's usually more bother than it's worth. The enemies scale to your highest level character, so if you have a level 20 and a bunch of 18s.. yeah.

EPSXE works, it's how I played it. You can cheese with save states if you want, I usually save right before questions just so I find out what my character will actually say/do if I choose one of the options. Cheap, but like baby arm said, it's very hard to infer just what the choices mean. There's an excellent reference site at http://luct.tacticsogre.com -- but it seems to be down at the moment (it was up yesterday, fwiw)

Edit: Another good tactic is to have your heavily armored tank characters shield slam the enemy -- attack with your shield, it'll do almost no damage, but if your weight is greater than the enemy's, you'll knock them back a square. This can be very useful on some maps. For lighter armored meleers, use gauntlets instead of shields (lighter and some special bonuses, but no shield slam ability.. then again, those units don't have high weight anyway).


-- Z.
 

DaViLLaN

Augur
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
148
Location
Dernholm
I think the SNES and PSX version of OGRE BATTLE are identical. It is a different game than Tactics Ogre. Then there is Ogre Battle 64, which is an updated version of the original Ogre Battle games for SNES & PSX. Those games are more strategic than tactical. You dont control the units in battle directly like you do in TO, but the game is equally addictive.

As far as emulation, TO works great on both ePSXe and PSXeven( and on Xbox PSX emu also). Use Petes plugins and you can improve graphics.

FFT is a little trickier, there are some lockups here and there, but it works. If anyone needs help with an Emu, just contact me.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom