Incline Temple of Elemental Evil

[Darth Canoli]

TOEE had the best implementation of D&D combat to date; best of any cRPG known.

Fixed for you.
Have you heard of Knights of the Chalice 2?

Not only it offers more than 8 classes (Yep, that's what ToEE without mods do), but there's a huge amount of races and classes.
Combat is also a huge improvement, with many skills to use in combat, options to speed it up and remove some spells animations.
Huge amount of spells, feats, the use of class specific skills in dialog/pre-combat text "events"

And on top of this, the best combat AI we ever had, by far.

 

[KainenMorden]

My only critique of the combat in the game itself is that there wasn't many arcane spellcasters to go against. Not sure if the pnp version is that way but I just took that as being part of the setting, you're going against a temple run by evil clerics not wizards/sorcerors.

It's probably similar to the P&P version as in Temple, most people there are priests.

There's an optional fight with a mage and some assassins where you find the orb, a party with at least one mage on Hedrak's level, Hedrak has a mage in his party as well, there's the Lamia, the final optional boss is a mage as well, I think, a few witches here and there like the hag in nulb's hunting quest, etc.
Sure, not every other opponent is a mage but still, there's mages around.

I agree with you, I'm just comparing it to BG2/IWD2 with the wizard fights, beholders, illithids, etc. but of course its a much shorter game.

TOEE is crippled by the turn-based mechanic. It takes too long, which is surprising coming from me as I love turn-based Fallout Tactics and Gold Box games.

I simply disagree

 

[Cael]

My only critique of the combat in the game itself is that there wasn't many arcane spellcasters to go against. Not sure if the pnp version is that way but I just took that as being part of the setting, you're going against a temple run by evil clerics not wizards/sorcerors.

It's probably similar to the P&P version as in Temple, most people there are priests.

There's an optional fight with a mage and some assassins where you find the orb, a party with at least one mage on Hedrak's level, Hedrak has a mage in his party as well, there's the Lamia, the final optional boss is a mage as well, I think, a few witches here and there like the hag in nulb's hunting quest, etc.
Sure, not every other opponent is a mage but still, there's mages around.

I agree with you, I'm just comparing it to BG2/IWD2 with the wizard fights, beholders, illithids, etc. but of course its a much shorter game.

TOEE is crippled by the turn-based mechanic. It takes too long, which is surprising coming from me as I love turn-based Fallout Tactics and Gold Box games.

I simply disagree

When the 5ft step, the single most used manoeuvre in 3.x combat, is buried 3 layers deep in the radial dial, it takes too long.

 

[Glop_dweller]

Have you heard of Knights of the Chalice 2?

Yes. It was focus of a Matt Chat episode four months ago; I was not impressed.

Not only it offers more than 8 classes

Why is this relevant?

options to speed it up and remove some spells animations.

Why is this desirable?

 

[rojay]

My only critique of the combat in the game itself is that there wasn't many arcane spellcasters to go against. Not sure if the pnp version is that way but I just took that as being part of the setting, you're going against a temple run by evil clerics not wizards/sorcerors.

It's probably similar to the P&P version as in Temple, most people there are priests.

There's an optional fight with a mage and some assassins where you find the orb, a party with at least one mage on Hedrak's level, Hedrak has a mage in his party as well, there's the Lamia, the final optional boss is a mage as well, I think, a few witches here and there like the hag in nulb's hunting quest, etc.
Sure, not every other opponent is a mage but still, there's mages around.

I agree with you, I'm just comparing it to BG2/IWD2 with the wizard fights, beholders, illithids, etc. but of course its a much shorter game.

TOEE is crippled by the turn-based mechanic. It takes too long, which is surprising coming from me as I love turn-based Fallout Tactics and Gold Box games.

I simply disagree

When the 5ft step, the single most used manoeuvre in 3.x combat, is buried 3 layers deep in the radial dial, it takes too long.

I didn't like the radial interface at first, but it becomes second nature if you play the game for a couple of hours. At least it did for me.

And the fact that 5-foot step is implemented, along with a host of other combat options, is pretty awesome. If you are interested in the various combat options, there's a thread here discussing them: https://co8.org/community/threads/about-combat-options.12951/

 

[NecroLord]

Toee also has Trip Attacks,Run,Withdraw,Flanking,Power Attack,you name it. Temple+ adds Disarm. The Spiked Chain and Heavy Flail also gain their +2 bonuses to Disarm checks,as per PnP. The weapon selection in Toee is also staggering. Pretty much every weapon in D&D is included,whether it's a light wakizashi,a punching dagger(Katar),or a two handed martial like a Greataxe and Falchion.

 

[Darth Canoli]

When the 5ft step, the single most used manoeuvre in 3.x combat, is buried 3 layers deep in the radial dial, it takes too long.

That's why there is keyboard shortcuts...

Toee also has Trip Attacks,Run,Withdraw,Flanking,Power Attack,you name it. Temple+ adds Disarm. The Spiked Chain and Heavy Flail also gain their +2 bonuses to Disarm checks,as per PnP. The weapon selection in Toee is also staggering. Pretty much every weapon in D&D is included,whether it's a light wakizashi,a punching dagger(Katar),or a two handed martial like a Greataxe and Falchion.

Sure, ToEE is good, you won't ever find me saying otherwise.
With Temple+, it becomes even great.

KotC was inspired by ToEE and did well, even improving the interactive index and with a better distance management with an invisible square grid instead of ToEE's free movement.
The AI in ToEE simply rushes mages, which was fine but if you make characters with reach weapons and a lot of Attacks of Opportunity per turn, you just destroy every bugbear enemy the game throws at you, it's that simple.
Iuz aside, of course, it takes some doing to put him 6 feet under.

KotC 2 is just on another level.
The AI is better than most players, hence, steamtards complaining it was way too hard.
And Pierre keeps on improving the AI with every fucking update.

 

[Pink Eye]

TOEE had the best implementation of D&D combat to date; best of any cRPG known.

Fixed for you.
Have you heard of Knights of the Chalice 2?

Not only it offers more than 8 classes (Yep, that's what ToEE without mods do), but there's a huge amount of races and classes.
Combat is also a huge improvement, with many skills to use in combat, options to speed it up and remove some spells animations.
Huge amount of spells, feats, the use of class specific skills in dialog/pre-combat text "events"

And on top of this, the best combat AI we ever had, by far.

I feel like Chalice 2 is going to be one of those games that will take time for people to finally acknowledge its greatness. Keep up the good fight

 

[rojay]

When the 5ft step, the single most used manoeuvre in 3.x combat, is buried 3 layers deep in the radial dial, it takes too long.

That's why there is keyboard shortcuts...

Toee also has Trip Attacks,Run,Withdraw,Flanking,Power Attack,you name it. Temple+ adds Disarm. The Spiked Chain and Heavy Flail also gain their +2 bonuses to Disarm checks,as per PnP. The weapon selection in Toee is also staggering. Pretty much every weapon in D&D is included,whether it's a light wakizashi,a punching dagger(Katar),or a two handed martial like a Greataxe and Falchion.

Sure, ToEE is good, you won't ever find me saying otherwise.
With Temple+, it becomes even great.

KotC was inspired by ToEE and did well, even improving the interactive index and with a better distance management with an invisible square grid instead of ToEE's free movement.
The AI in ToEE simply rushes mages, which was fine but if you make characters with reach weapons and a lot of Attacks of Opportunity per turn, you just destroy every bugbear enemy the game throws at you, it's that simple.
Iuz aside, of course, it takes some doing to put him 6 feet under.

KotC 2 is just on another level.
The AI is better than most players, hence, steamtards complaining it was way too hard.
And Pierre keeps on improving the AI with every fucking update.

The AI is better in Knights of the Chalice, which is pretty impressive given how much more complex it must be to program for that many more options. I have no idea if that's true, but seems logical.

I still like ToEE better, at least with the Temple+ Co8 mods installed.

On another note, does anyone else remember pre-patch when NPCs would loot random objects in addition to taking a share of gold, but wouldn't let you manage their inventory or sell items for them? Fuck you Elmo, just drop the seventeen sets of chainmail so you can walk again.

 

[Laz Sundays]

The reason why ToEE is highly regarded is because it went deeper than others to simulate 3.5e, with great success. It also looks pretty, and seeing animation for greatsword critical is an erotic experience.

The game left you feeling dissapointed after it was over? Welcome to the club. We all wanted more for years now, we all want it to be bigger, deeper, longer and better. Nothing came.

Now, I see you argue alot over TB vs RTwP. You're forgetting one simple thing - tabletop game does not have as much accent on the combat. Crpgs have a bigger focus on combat because simulating the DM is next to impossible. Simulating options other than combat is really hard. Personally? I love both, but prefer TB. TB is better fitting for a game that tries to be as tabletop as possible. Also something I'd prefer rather than fighting all the time.
It's just that crpgs mutated into an entirely different beast. Combat became the meat of rpg due to circumstance and technological limitation. Then it became a standard cause people love combat more and it sells better.

Tabletop is Tolkien, crpgs are MCU.

 

[Roguey]

tabletop game does not have as much accent on the combat.

I've read enough Gygax modules to know this isn't the case (with ToEE being among their number). The difference is that in pen and paper you can deal with enemies in ways that don't require interacting with the combat system.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

TOEE has the best implementation of D&D combat to date; best of any cRPG known.

3e is only D&D if you were a baby when real D&D existed

 

[NecroLord]

TOEE has the best implementation of D&D combat to date; best of any cRPG known.

3e is only D&D if you were a baby when real D&D existed

But what D&D edition had the best combat system?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

TOEE has the best implementation of D&D combat to date; best of any cRPG known.

3e is only D&D if you were a baby when real D&D existed

But what D&D edition had the best combat system?

AD&D, obviously. OSRsoys focusing on "muh simplicity" are cancer
1e and 2e were similar enough to port rules between as you saw fit

 

[NecroLord]

TOEE has the best implementation of D&D combat to date; best of any cRPG known.

3e is only D&D if you were a baby when real D&D existed

But what D&D edition had the best combat system?

AD&D, obviously. OSRsoys focusing on "muh simplicity" are cancer
1e and 2e were similar enough to port rules between as you saw fit

True,AD&D had many things going for it. Personally,I like AD&D 2e and 3.5 the most,anything post 3.5 is garbage.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

TOEE has the best implementation of D&D combat to date; best of any cRPG known.

3e is only D&D if you were a baby when real D&D existed

But what D&D edition had the best combat system?

AD&D, obviously. OSRsoys focusing on "muh simplicity" are cancer
1e and 2e were similar enough to port rules between as you saw fit

True,AD&D had many things going for it. Personally,I like AD&D 2e and 3.5 the most,anything post 3.5 is garbage.

3.5 is not d&d, it is WotC's RPG with the wrong name.

 

[NecroLord]

How so? Did it flagrantly betray the tradition of old D&D and lacks its soul?

 

[Laz Sundays]

tabletop game does not have as much accent on the combat.

I've read enough Gygax modules to know this isn't the case (with ToEE being among their number). The difference is that in pen and paper you can deal with enemies in ways that don't require interacting with the combat system.

Ehh. The point still stands. We're fighting more than anything else in videogames, no wonder Turn Based is pissing people off if you're constantly fighting something.

 

[Norfleet]

Combat became the meat of rpg due to circumstance and technological limitation. Then it became a standard cause people love combat more and it sells better.

We like combat because it focuses on at least part of what is best in life. But...there's still a lot missing.

I mean, Combat clearly scratches that "crush your enemies" aspect, but we are missing "see them driven before you" and "hear the lamentations of their women". I therefore give it a 1 out of 3.

That's honestly the problem with combat in these games: It gets a bit repetitive because you're always crushing your enemies. You never get to see them driven before you, because they always fight to their deaths no matter how unlikely they are to actually succeed, so it gets overused, and then there's no actual payoff because we never hear the lamentations of their women.

 

[Glop_dweller]

TOEE has the best implementation of D&D combat to date; best of any cRPG known.

3e is only D&D if you were a baby when real D&D existed

I don't much care for D&D 3+, but TOEE still stands as the best cRPG implementation of the game—for any rule-set.

The sad part is that TOEE was not intended to be a D&D 3.5e game; they had to retrofit it when the D&D 3.5e rules were released to the market—just before TOEE was ready to ship.

 

[Laz Sundays]

Combat became the meat of rpg due to circumstance and technological limitation. Then it became a standard cause people love combat more and it sells better.

We like combat because it focuses on at least part of what is best in life. But...there's still a lot missing.

I mean, Combat clearly scratches that "crush your enemies" aspect, but we are missing "see them driven before you" and "hear the lamentations of their women". I therefore give it a 1 out of 3.

That's honestly the problem with combat in these games: It gets a bit repetitive because you're always crushing your enemies. You never get to see them driven before you, because they always fight to their deaths no matter how unlikely they are to actually succeed, so it gets overused, and then there's no actual payoff because we never hear the lamentations of their women.

Something like so. We do occasionally get to see prompts where they want to talk or outright surrender, but it's true - enough games have done fighting really well, and barely any of them have other options fleshed out. Every time a beaten NPC offered to talk or tried to run, the option of letting them live wasn't worth it. That's another problem.

Combat aside - If our druid can manipulate earth or stone, a game that allows us to edit just ONE part of a wall or ground ingame would win my heart. To atleast try and get close to any sort of innovation.

And please for the love of god, don't try to recommend Knights of the Chalice or any other flash looking games. It's 2022., surely we can have a game that looks as good as ToEE. Fuck it, I'll settle for IE looks even tho I wanna strangle anyone who mentions it. Just.. anything that isn't reeking of combat and looking like a Oldfag Delight.

 

[RPK]

you're really missing out not playing Knights of the Chalice and it's sequel. especially if you like TOEE

 

[Gregz]

TOEE has the best implementation of D&D combat to date; best of any cRPG known.

It's good, but KoTC 1 is a contender.

 

[Norfleet]

Something like so. We do occasionally get to see prompts where they want to talk or outright surrender, but it's true

That, and most of what they want to talk about tends to be useless and perfidious: They don't REALLY want to surrender or talk, they just want to draw you out under the false pretense of a parley so they can attack you when you are in a disadvantageous position since talking forcibly rearranges your party into Stupid Formation. You ARE going to end up fighting them. So anytime you're offered the option, you're better off being Han Solo and always shooting first. Besides, the point isn't that there is an option to talk or attack, or not attack. The point is that your enemies should be DRIVEN before you, fleeing for their miserable lives and thus shortening the tedium of unnecessary trash combat. But no, enemies will pointlessly engage you just to drag you into constant battles, which you will easily win, but at this point the entertainment of crushing them has worn thin and gotten repetitive. When you've killed the first 50 enemies, the remaining 50 enemies and any subsequently more pathetic forces should rightly be driven before you. That way you don't have to actually start up a slow, cumbersome turn-based combat for a trivial and unimportant battle, you can resolve this simply by seeing them driven before you. Which is, after all, the next part of what is best in life.

 

[Darth Canoli]

The AI is better in Knights of the Chalice, which is pretty impressive given how much more complex it must be to program for that many more options. I have no idea if that's true, but seems logical.

I still like ToEE better, at least with the Temple+ Co8 mods installed.

On another note, does anyone else remember pre-patch when NPCs would loot random objects in addition to taking a share of gold, but wouldn't let you manage their inventory or sell items for them? Fuck you Elmo, just drop the seventeen sets of chainmail so you can walk again.

Yes, the AI is way better to the point he had to dumb it down a little so your opponents don't always use the best move, it also adds some variety, if you play the same fight a couple of times, like it happened for all the early players whom didn't know the game and had only the archmage difficulty.

ToEE with Temple+ is more re-playable than KotC 1 due to the extra races and even monstrous ones if you want to try something fun.
Also, KotC 1 lacks optional quests and non combat ones.

Yes, that feature was fun at first until it wasn't, patches were a godsend.

As for ToEE and KotC weaknesses, KotC 2 + Hearkenwold gets the best of both worlds, KotC 2 system + Hearkenwold world which is more of a classic adventure with many optional quests and cities to explore.

And please for the love of god, don't try to recommend Knights of the Chalice or any other flash looking games. It's 2022., surely we can have a game that looks as good as ToEE. Fuck it, I'll settle for IE looks even tho I wanna strangle anyone who mentions it. Just.. anything that isn't reeking of combat and looking like a Oldfag Delight.

Now I just want to strangle YOU...