Incline Temple of Elemental Evil

[KainenMorden]

They do.

UFO (the original), Dungeon Rats, ToEE, BlackGuards, Colony Ship, KotC, Kotc 2, Warbanners are some of the best tactical RPG ever made.

I would add AoD but I hold a grudge against its 1 character formula and of course there's more but I'm not going to name them all.

Yeah no problem, just wanted your brief thoughts on it. Age of decadence is on my list for sure as well.

Last question, what do you think about Jagged Alliance 2?

 

[Jasede]

I would say KotC 1/2 are a league above the Iron Tower games. I wouldn't compare it to UFO because it's much more RPG than that.

Honestly the only RPG combat that comes close or is better is ToEE.

Jagged Alliance 2 is also not an RPG (though many here say it is - a topic of passionate debate) but we all love it here.

If you're looking for something like UFO or JA2 look up "Troubleshooter"

 

[KainenMorden]

I would say KotC 1/2 are a league above the Iron Tower games. I wouldn't compare it to UFO because it's much more RPG than that.

Honestly the only RPG combat that comes close or is better is ToEE.

Jagged Alliance 2 is also not an RPG (though many here say it is - a topic of passionate debate) but we all love it here.

If you're looking for something like UFO or JA2 look up "Troubleshooter"

Thanks

 

[Darth Canoli]

Jagged Alliance 2 is also not an RPG (though many here say it is - a topic of passionate debate) but we all love it here.

If you're looking for something like UFO or JA2 look up "Troubleshooter"

I hate JA 2's UI, it makes it unplayable for me but anyone should try it for himself as it's a real classic.
I didn't play troubleshooter but if it's anything like it's sequels ... I played Valkyria chronicles and the gameplay is hot garbage.

It's both TB and Real Time meaning during you turn, the enemy has infinite retaliation and the gridless movement + real time action all around is terribly messy, I rate it console garbage but maybe Troubleshooter plays differently.

I'd rrather recommend Silent Storm and then Hammer & sickle if you loved it.

 

[Jasede]

No no Troubleshooter is this Korean tactical combat game that plays like UFO except it's about teenage superheroes.

I know you're running away now but if you check out the the thread you'll see that those who tried it despite this premise love it. It's got complexity up its ass, is full of meaningful mechanics of which there's an assload, has an insane skill system, is extremely long and very challenging. And more complex systems keep unlocking as you go even when you thought it couldn't get any more interesting.

You haven't played this title? Best game of this type since UFO, shits all over NuXCom.


Also maybe the new user might like Mutant Year Zero. Good tactical combat but short.

 

[KainenMorden]

No no Troubleshooter is this Korean tactical combat game that plays like UFO except it's about teenage superheroes.

I know you're running away now but if you check out the the thread you'll see that those who tried it despite this premise love it. It's got complexity up its ass, is full of meaningful mechanics of which there's an assload, has an insane skill system, is extremely long and very challenging. And more complex systems keep unlocking as you go even when you thought it couldn't get any more interesting.

You haven't played this title? Best game of this type since UFO, shits all over NuXCom.


Also maybe the new user might like Mutant Year Zero. Good tactical combat but short.

When you guys say ufo you mean xcom ufo defense, right? Sorry I'm a big time noob. Closest thing to a tactical rpg I've played is fallout

Also is tactical rpg defined as a turn based rpg that is combat focused?

 

[Jasede]

With RPGs everyone kind of has their own definitions so it depends on who you ask. But yeah that sounds like a good definition.

When we say UFO we specifically mean the old XCOM 1 game by Microprose (XCOM: UFO Defense) and its sequel, Terror From the Deep.


XCOM 1 was called UFO: Enemy Unknown in Europe.

 

[KainenMorden]

With RPGs everyone kind of has their own definitions so it depends on who you ask. But yeah that sounds like a good definition.

When we say UFO we specifically mean the old XCOM 1 game by Microprose (XCOM: UFO Defense) and its sequel, Terror From the Deep.


XCOM 1 was called UFO: Enemy Unknown in Europe.

Ok thanks.

 

[Cael]

No no Troubleshooter is this Korean tactical combat game that plays like UFO except it's about teenage superheroes.

I know you're running away now but if you check out the the thread you'll see that those who tried it despite this premise love it. It's got complexity up its ass, is full of meaningful mechanics of which there's an assload, has an insane skill system, is extremely long and very challenging. And more complex systems keep unlocking as you go even when you thought it couldn't get any more interesting.

You haven't played this title? Best game of this type since UFO, shits all over NuXCom.


Also maybe the new user might like Mutant Year Zero. Good tactical combat but short.

When you guys say ufo you mean xcom ufo defense, right? Sorry I'm a big time noob. Closest thing to a tactical rpg I've played is fallout

Also is tactical rpg defined as a turn based rpg that is combat focused?

Fallout Tactics is a good example of the breed.

 

[Dorateen]

Good to know. Would you say KotC games hold their own against all the "tactical" rpg releases of the past 10-12 years?

What makes the Knights of the Chalice games so tactically good, and why they are head and shoulders above the others, is because of the adaptive enemy AI. The game considers your party set up, resistances, etc. and will counter actions that you take, making you think one or two steps ahead. Spellcasters will burn away webs that you lay down, cast dispel magic, take advantage of any poor positioning of the player. And this isn't even talking about the offensive capabilities. The enemy AI plays smart, and that allows even a simple encounter to potentially be a challenge. If the player lets down his guard, the game will usually make you pay for it.

 

[Sitra Achara]

KotC was the first game DnD game I've seen where AI wakes teammates from sleep. Totally stole that one!

 

[notpl]

KotC 2's default campaign is an interminable slog against outrageously statted monsters with immunities to everything where strategy boils down to using the same 2-3 immunity-proof disables and savescumming the fights over and over until you win initiative and the enemy fails their save against whatever you picked. Was 1 better or something?

 

[KainenMorden]

KotC 2's default campaign is an interminable slog against outrageously statted monsters with immunities to everything where strategy boils down to using the same 2-3 immunity-proof disables and savescumming the fights over and over until you win initiative and the enemy fails their save against whatever you picked. Was 1 better or something?

What games do you think are better? I just installed KotC 1, going to start playing soon.

 

[Jasede]

KotC 2's default campaign is an interminable slog against outrageously statted monsters with immunities to everything where strategy boils down to using the same 2-3 immunity-proof disables and savescumming the fights over and over until you win initiative and the enemy fails their save against whatever you picked. Was 1 better or something?

Yes. One is a normally balanced module. It's true that 2 is tuned for some kind of D&D savant that likes to reload when he loses initiative, though.

 

[KainenMorden]

KotC 2's default campaign is an interminable slog against outrageously statted monsters with immunities to everything where strategy boils down to using the same 2-3 immunity-proof disables and savescumming the fights over and over until you win initiative and the enemy fails their save against whatever you picked. Was 1 better or something?

Yes. One is a normally balanced module. It's true that 2 is tuned for some kind of D&D savant that likes to reload when he loses initiative, though.

What do you think about the combat system of wizardry 8 and some other popular "blobbers" vs toee, KotC?

 

[Darth Canoli]

KotC 2's default campaign is an interminable slog against outrageously statted monsters with immunities to everything where strategy boils down to using the same 2-3 immunity-proof disables and savescumming the fights over and over until you win initiative and the enemy fails their save against whatever you picked. Was 1 better or something?

I disagree.
It only seems that way if you don't diversify your team, a wide panel of races and classes chosen wisely completely removes the savescumming and initiative aspect because you get many options to get a surprise round or different advantages in battle through character skills.

As for the immunities, some monsters have immunities, each monster type have its own and some tough "boss" monsters have more than their share.
It's D&D, I don't know what you were playing before, MMO? Larian's garbage? It's your first RPG, you were only playing mobile RPG games games?

 

[Jasede]

Okay to put his disagree rating into perspective: when I played KOTC 2 it had no difficulty settings. Leveling up cost gold. There was no starting village. The only difficulty setting was "actual rape." The surprise attack options hadn't been added yet.

And as for blobbers and Wizardry 8 - while some have reasonably good and complex combat it still doesn't compare to ToEE or KotC because of a no movement. Movement adds a lot.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I didn't play troubleshooter but if it's anything like it's sequels ... I played Valkyria chronicles and the gameplay is hot garbage.

Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020) is a squad-based tactics game with intricate character customization and progression, excellent encounter design, and engaging mechanics; one of the greatest games released in the last decade in any genre.

 

[notpl]

Troubleshooter is fine but "encounter design" isn't something I would praise about it. I don't even think it HAS encounter design at any point, does it? Enemies are spawned and arranged within each level algorithmically, barring a few of the big story fights.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Troubleshooter is fine but "encounter design" isn't something I would praise about it. I don't even think it HAS encounter design at any point, does it? Enemies are spawned and arranged within each level algorithmically, barring a few of the big story fights.

The original UFO didn't have any handcrafted encounter design either, I can't talk for Troubledkoreanteenagersshooter but it worked in spite of it for UFO.
Which is rare enough to mention.

 

[KainenMorden]

Quick side note, do archers and mages ever move out of area of effect spells like cloudkill and ice storm? They don't on my game and they don't really move at all unless I get close to them or they run out of spells/arrows.

 

[NecroLord]

Quick side note, do archers and mages ever move out of area of effect spells like cloudkill and ice storm? They don't on my game and they don't really move at all unless I get close to them or they run out of spells/arrows.

Do you have Temple+ and Co8 installed? They certainly move out of area of effect spells(like Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill) and try to break free from Web. They even try and wake up their allies if they are under the effect of a Sleep spell that you have cast.

 

[KainenMorden]

Quick side note, do archers and mages ever move out of area of effect spells like cloudkill and ice storm? They don't on my game and they don't really move at all unless I get close to them or they run out of spells/arrows.

Do you have Temple+ and Co8 installed? They certainly move out of area of effect spells(like Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill) and try to break free from Web. They even try and wake up their allies if they are under the effect of a Sleep spell that you have cast.

Yes I have both installed. Maybe I'm missing something on temple+ components

 

[KainenMorden]

Quick side note, do archers and mages ever move out of area of effect spells like cloudkill and ice storm? They don't on my game and they don't really move at all unless I get close to them or they run out of spells/arrows.

Do you have Temple+ and Co8 installed? They certainly move out of area of effect spells(like Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill) and try to break free from Web. They even try and wake up their allies if they are under the effect of a Sleep spell that you have cast.

Never used the sleep spell, I did use web and remember enemies breaking free.

I also always have greater invisibility and displacement cast, not sure if that makes a difference

 

[Sitra Achara]

AI isn't programmed to avoid AoE effects, but it might try to approach if it can't cast any spells.