Game News Tentative Torment Kickstarter Tiers Announced

[Lancehead]

I'm not even sure what "something important" consists of in terms of Torment, so much of the game's magic is not the core plot but the incidental details.

Journey of self-discovery and subverting RPG tropes are what made PST special for me. For those one doesn't need Planescape setting. But it did accommodate the various elements very well. If that isn't true, then there's no hope for TTN.

 

[Zeriel]

Forgotten Realms has lots of garbage books, and a few things that are neat. Take any setting, hell, take ANY ACTUAL FIELD in the real world, and there are lots of shitty, unoriginal people working in it, and a few (basically 1% if not less) who do something really great with it. Just as Michelangelo isn't the only great artist, I really doubt Avellone as a writer for games is in a league of his own.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I've always found it absurd when people say Shakespeare was the best playwright of all time, I'm always thinking: 'Really? The BEST? Without a doubt?'

Fortunately, the gaming industry is filled with hacks who bless us with great lines like "I want to be a dragon!" or "I'm looking for my dad, a middle aged guy" or "[intelligence] "You're fighting the good fight with your voice!", whereas people who are truly creative and can write are extremely rare, so picking the best *game* writer is much easier than picking the best writer.

 

[Infinitron]

Like I mentioned earlier, after PST I bought some Planescape books expecting something equally awesome or better. The books were garbage which made me realize that Torment stood alone because of Avellone's writing and storytelling, but hey, let's pretend that it's the setting and that anyone could have done an awesome job there.

Yeah...or maybe those books were just shit because they were shit. Seriously, what kind of logic is that?

How about reading the Planescape sourcebooks? That would give you a sample of Colin McComb and Monte Cook's abilities.

 

[Diablo169]

I think one of the bigger concerns about McComb (at least for me) is that he doesn't appear to have done much of anything since PS:T. That could actually end up working in his favour if hes had a lot of untapped ideas brewing though.

 

[tuluse]

Forgotten Realms has lots of garbage books, and a few things that are neat. Take any setting, hell, take ANY ACTUAL FIELD in the real world, and there are lots of shitty, unoriginal people working in it, and a few (basically 1% if not less) who do something really great with it. Just as Michelangelo isn't the only great artist, I really doubt Avellone as a writer for games is in a league of his own.

Got any examples of writing on par with Avellone's stuff in video games?

 

[Zeriel]

Forgotten Realms has lots of garbage books, and a few things that are neat. Take any setting, hell, take ANY ACTUAL FIELD in the real world, and there are lots of shitty, unoriginal people working in it, and a few (basically 1% if not less) who do something really great with it. Just as Michelangelo isn't the only great artist, I really doubt Avellone as a writer for games is in a league of his own.

Got any examples of writing on par with Avellone's stuff in video games?

In Torment? No, but Torment is fairly unique in its heavy use of text, only thing I can think of are early DOS era stuff like Betrayal of Krondor that come close. But his work since then? Sure, everything after Torment is fairly run-of-the-mill for competent writers.

 

[Brother None]

I think one of the bigger concerns about McComb (at least for me) is that he doesn't appear to have done much of anything since PS:T. That could actually end up working in his favour if hes had a lot of untapped ideas brewing though.

He left BIS in like 2000, yeah, and has been doing mostly PnP and writing things since, so if you're looking for videogame work specifically you won't find much. Is that a problem? Could be. He rejoined inXile for Wasteland 2 and obviously Brian was pretty happy with his work. Is his absence a bad thing because he's rusty or is it a good thing because he has existed outside of the influence of The Decline that has been eating up so many erstwhile great developers?

 

[tuluse]

Forgotten Realms has lots of garbage books, and a few things that are neat. Take any setting, hell, take ANY ACTUAL FIELD in the real world, and there are lots of shitty, unoriginal people working in it, and a few (basically 1% if not less) who do something really great with it. Just as Michelangelo isn't the only great artist, I really doubt Avellone as a writer for games is in a league of his own.

Got any examples of writing on par with Avellone's stuff in video games?

In Torment? No, but Torment is fairly unique in its heavy use of text, only thing I can think of are early DOS era stuff like Betrayal of Krondor that come close. But his work since then? Sure, everything after Torment is fairly run-of-the-mill for competent writers.

KoTOR2 was the best take on Star Wars since the original trilogy, so apparently that was beyond what "competent writers" can do.

 

[Zeriel]

Forgotten Realms has lots of garbage books, and a few things that are neat. Take any setting, hell, take ANY ACTUAL FIELD in the real world, and there are lots of shitty, unoriginal people working in it, and a few (basically 1% if not less) who do something really great with it. Just as Michelangelo isn't the only great artist, I really doubt Avellone as a writer for games is in a league of his own.

Got any examples of writing on par with Avellone's stuff in video games?

In Torment? No, but Torment is fairly unique in its heavy use of text, only thing I can think of are early DOS era stuff like Betrayal of Krondor that come close. But his work since then? Sure, everything after Torment is fairly run-of-the-mill for competent writers.

KoTOR2 was the best take on Star Wars since the original trilogy, so apparently that was beyond what "competent writers" can do.

I enjoyed it, but I wouldn't say it was revolutionary. On the one hand, anything but kindergarten garbage is a step up for the Old Republic era of Star Wars, so it's not particularly hard to look good by comparison. On the other hand... it does sort of make an argument for his talents being wasted on stuff that really holds him back, if you want to take that tack.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Not anyone. But it's sure easier to do it when you have a strong setting behind you. He certainly didn't need to find a story that only a man of his caliber could make great. There's so much potential for great storytelling in Planescape it's mindboggling.

There is. I'm not arguing that. It's a great setting. My point is that Avellone didn't lean too heavily on the setting and didn't use it to make a unique Planescape game (which would have been preferable). Instead he made a game that could have been set in any other fantasy setting.

 

[Brother None]

I dunno if I really consider "Chris Avellone is the best writer in the industry" a statement that can be met with much controversy. The only possibly issue is that it's often kind of hard to figure out who did what in videogames, and mis-attribution by fans is all too common (I know it bugs MCA how often that happens). And it's hard to tell how many creative minds are getting squashed by PR and production suits. But from what we know, he sure looks like the best. And yeah, the majority of it is pretty crappy, but there's still some pretty damn good writers at the top.

As for the setting discussion, well, belief shaping the planes/reality was pretty integral to many parts of PS:T's story, and I don't know how well you can divorce that from the setting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Like I mentioned earlier, after PST I bought some Planescape books expecting something equally awesome or better. The books were garbage which made me realize that Torment stood alone because of Avellone's writing and storytelling, but hey, let's pretend that it's the setting and that anyone could have done an awesome job there.

Yeah...or maybe those books were just shit because they were shit. Seriously, what kind of logic is that?

The logic is a simple one. It's very rare to see a game designer beating established writers, hacks that they are since they write licensed books, in their own game and demonstrating much better writing and storytelling.

How about reading the Planescape sourcebooks? That would give you a sample of Colin McComb and Monte Cook's abilities.

I'll wait for the game.

 

[tuluse]

Yeah the biggest problem with discussing the best writer in video games is that the industry doesn't recognize or reward good writing, so there are probably guys out there capable who have their ideas squashed to "resonate with the customer".

 

[Vault Dweller]

As for the setting discussion, well, belief shaping the planes/reality was pretty integral to many parts of PS:T's story, and I don't know how well you can divorce that from the setting.

Would you be kind enough to remind me how it affected the story? It's been a while since I've played it, so maybe I forgot something.

Agree with the rest.

KoTOR2 was the best take on Star Wars since the original trilogy, so apparently that was beyond what "competent writers" can do.

This.

 

[Brother None]

Yeah the biggest problem with discussing the best writer in video games is that the industry doesn't recognize or reward good writing, so there are probably guys out there capable who have their ideas squashed to "resonate with the customer".

Yip. And there's stuff like Homefront, which wasn't very good, but still, it was written by an in-studio designer who got zero credit for it because PR wanted to push the whole "written by John Milius" angle. Ah, game industry...

Would you be kind enough to remind me how it affected the story? It's been a while since I've played it, so maybe I forgot something.

It determines the way you can beat Trias the Betrayer, as well as the Transcendent One (unless you go old-school and just curb-stomp his ass), as well as the entire sequence in Curst and - one could argue - the Fortress of Regrets. It is also integral to minor but most fondly-remembered segments of the game, such as the Brothel of Slating Intellectual Lust (to a minor degree) and Adahn (to a much greater degree). It is also an oft-used mechanic in your relationship with and usage of the followers in the game, especially at the end, and hell, followers like Vhailor and even Ignus are shaped or held together by belief.

Could you replace a lot of this with different mechanics? Probably. Would it hold up as well? I don't know. According to MCA in the earlier-cited interview, "belief" is even the canon answer (if there is one) to "what can change the nature of a man?" In many ways, it was the central theme of the game.

One key thing to keep in mind, for me as a person who dabbles in creative writing, is that it is very different to take this finished product, cut out the setting (say they lose the license) and transplant it to another one. That is very possible. But does that also mean Chris could have written all these characters and storylines without the inspiration and cues of Planescape? I'm not so sure.

 

[Koschey]

As for the setting discussion, well, belief shaping the planes/reality was pretty integral to many parts of PS:T's story, and I don't know how well you can divorce that from the setting.

This. I'd even go so far and say that 'Belief shapes reality' is at least as essential to the Planescape setting, if not even more so, than planeswalking; even if the development of a setting where planar adventures are feasible starting from level 1 was the primary motivation behind Planescape.
The story of P:T and the Planescape setting had a great synergy and I seriously doubt a hypothetical Forgotten Realms: Torment could have held a candle to what we actually got.

 

[Jasede]

MCA
MCA
MCA
*chants*

 

[Zeriel]

If you look in a mirror and say MCA three times fast, people appear and tell you why he's awesome?

 

[Jaesun]

Yes Drog.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Game of thrones arguably has a better story than Planescape.

 

[Harold]

Walter White is arguably a better fleshed-out character than TNO

 

[evdk]

This thread has arguably not gone to the dogs.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yeah...or maybe those books were just shit because they were shit. Seriously, what kind of logic is that?

How about reading the Planescape sourcebooks? That would give you a sample of Colin McComb and Monte Cook's abilities.

Oh wait, VD was talking about the Planescape novels? I obviously meant the sourcebooks when I said that a lot of stuff is borrowed from there. A LOT.

Would you be kind enough to remind me how it affected the story?

The whole game was based on the "belief shaping everything" stuff. What the fuck. It's irrelevant anyway what could have affected that barebone story you cling to so hard. It's NOT the only thing that was important in the game. Without the setting backing it it wouldn't be that much of a story really. Not the one you limit the game to, anyway.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Walter White is arguably a better fleshed-out character than TNO

The game that is, which was actually praised for its story and characters by many Codex veterans, as proof that it's possible for games to be a great storytelling medium.