Game News Tentative Torment Kickstarter Tiers Announced

[Vault Dweller]

I assumed for some reasons that it's Ziets, my bad (wishful thinking, I suppose). I don't know much about Kevin and what he's capable of. Ziets did the story and most of the writing on MotB and it's the only game that can stand next to PST, so he is the probably the only designer (other than MCA, of course) whom I'd trust to make a worthy Torment game. No wonder they made him a stretch goal on PE.

According to Brother None, Kevin Saunders was one of the underrated "unsung heroes" of Obsidian, because he's not very interested in self-promotion. From what I've seen on his Formspring he seems to know his shit.

He does, but again, it's a Torment game we're talking about here. Top storytelling and writing are what's needed more than anything else, and so far there are only two developers who have the proven skills to do it - Avellone and Ziets. Sawyer does some great lines, but a proper Torment game will require a lot more.

Well, if it makes you feel better, a George Ziets stretch goal may be in the cards for Torment as well.

It doesn't, unless he's the creative lead.

 

[Infinitron]

I assumed for some reasons that it's Ziets, my bad (wishful thinking, I suppose). I don't know much about Kevin and what he's capable of. Ziets did the story and most of the writing on MotB and it's the only game that can stand next to PST, so he is the probably the only designer (other than MCA, of course) whom I'd trust to make a worthy Torment game. No wonder they made him a stretch goal on PE.

According to Brother None, Kevin Saunders was one of the underrated "unsung heroes" of Obsidian, because he's not very interested in self-promotion. From what I've seen on his Formspring he seems to know his shit.

He does, but again, it's a Torment game we're talking about here. Top storytelling and writing are what's needed more than anything else, and so far there are only two developers who have the proven skills to do it - Avellone and Ziets. Sawyer does some great lines, but a proper Torment game will require a lot more.

Well, if it makes you feel better, a George Ziets stretch goal may be in the cards for Torment as well.

It doesn't, unless he's the creative lead.

lol

What can I say? I'm glad the person who gave MCA his first job wasn't like you.

 

[Infinitron]

Oh btw

I don't know much about Kevin and what he's capable of.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=468.0
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=699.0

 

[Vault Dweller]

Not sure what your point is.

It's not about giving someone a shot, and for the record, a studio boss who knows his people (and MCA's skills were proven before he was given Torment) and is able to evaluate them isn't the same as a KS backer who knows very little (we don't even know what exactly Colin did on PST, for example) and is expected to trust blindly and hope for the best.

I'm glad that the game is in development (more non-action RPGs is always a good thing) and I'm sure that they will pick the best people for the job. So, it's not about the game itself, it's about KS. They can put a 12 year old in charge of writing if they feel he's got the skills, if they can prove it to the backers beyond all reasonable doubts. If they can't prove it because it's too early to talk about the story and writing, then I'd rather see someone proven in charge of writing and storytelling.

Tell me it doesn't make sense.

 

[Infinitron]

Not sure what your point is.

It's not about giving someone a shot, and for the record, a studio boss who knows his people (and MCA's skills were proven before he was given Torment) and is able to evaluate them isn't the same as a KS backer who knows very little (we don't even know what exactly Colin did on PST, for example) and is expected to trust blindly and hope for the best.

I'm glad that the game is in development (more non-action RPGs is always a good thing) and I'm sure that they will pick the best people for the job. So, it's not about the game itself, it's about KS. They can put a 12 year old in charge of writing if they feel he's got the skills, if they can prove it to the backers beyond all reasonable doubts. If they can't prove it because it's too early to talk about the story and writing, then I'd rather see someone proven in charge of writing and storytelling.

Tell me it doesn't make sense.

It depends what you as an individual thinks needs to be proven, doesn't it?

For example, for some people, this

(more non-action RPGs is always a good thing)

is proof enough.

The 4658 backers of the Numenera Kickstarter will probably back this because it's a taste of the setting they invested in. Numenera and Monte cook are all the proof they need. And so on.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh btw


http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=468.0
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=699.0

I emailed him a bunch of questions and he kindly answered them. It forged an unspoken bond between us and now I know everything about him and am a wordwide fucking expert on Kevin Saunders. Ask me anything!

 

[Zeriel]

What is his favorite flavor of Doritos? I know Nacho Cheese is the in-thing now, but when I was growing up Cool Ranch was the shit.

 

[Jaesun]

 

[Vault Dweller]

It depends what you as an individual thinks needs to be proven, doesn't it?

Um.... writing skills? Design skills? Doesn't New Reno stand out in Fallout 2 and is considered one of the best areas in terms of role-playing?

For examplle, for some people, this
(more non-action RPGs is always a good thing)
is proof enough.

Proof of what?

The 4658 backers of the Numenera Kickstarter will probably back this because it's a taste of the setting they invested in. Numenera is all the proof they need. And so on.

Again, proof of what? Sure, 90% of these backers will back the new Torment by default, no matter what, but how is it relevant to the conversation?

 

[Zeriel]

Incidentally, that's a good point about us having no idea who did what on Torment. I guess I kind of come at it from the opposite direction--we have no real idea how essential to the game MCA was, and in light of some of his more absurd beliefs (i.e gameplay > writing) in recent times, I do wonder if the Codex Received Wisdom--aka, he is responsible for it being good--is actually valid.

Possibility #2: I'm a retard, MCA is awesome, and it's just that having to write within the confines of horrible licenses after Torment has resulted in not-very-amazing-games. If so, though, that's just all the more argument for people like him to strive to work on unconventional stuff.

 

[Infinitron]

Um.... writing skills? Design skills? Doesn't New Reno stand out in Fallout 2 and is considered one of the best areas in terms of role-playing?

Hey, you told me once you didn't like New Reno.

Again, proof of what? Sure, 90% of these backers will back the new Torment by default, no matter what, but how is it relevant to the conversation?

What's the conversation about? Why Vault Dweller won't back Torment?

absurd beliefs (i.e gameplay > writing)

 

[Brother None]

Incidentally, that's a good point about us having no idea who did what on Torment. I guess I kind of come at it from the opposite direction--we have no real idea how essential to the game MCA was, and in light of some of his more absurd beliefs (i.e gameplay > writing) in recent times, I do wonder if the Codex Received Wisdom--aka, he is responsible for it being good--is actually valid.

Game projects pretty much always tend to lean on multiple people, even in core ways, and you could give a lot of credit to Colin and Tim Donley and others. But Torment leaned about as much on MCA as a project of that scope could. It couldn't exist without him, and he wrote possibly over half of all the text in the game (which is fairly insane).

 

[Grunker]

absurd beliefs (i.e gameplay > writing)

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hey, you told me once you didn't like New Reno.

Well, fuck me, Infintron, now you've done it. You're a disgrace to the state of Israel. I'll write an angry letter to Netanyahu and demand him to revoke your membership on the grounds of asking people inane questions, thus proving that you are not one of the Chosen people but a goyim in disguise.

No, I didn't like it because it didn't fit and Avellone himself admitted that it didn't fit, but in terms of role-playing it was one of the best areas.

Now, on to my letter. "Dear Bibi. I bring you grave news..."

 

[Infinitron]

What the hell.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Incidentally, that's a good point about us having no idea who did what on Torment. I guess I kind of come at it from the opposite direction--we have no real idea how essential to the game MCA was, and in light of some of his more absurd beliefs (i.e gameplay > writing) in recent times, I do wonder if the Codex Received Wisdom--aka, he is responsible for it being good--is actually valid.

Possibility #2: I'm a retard, MCA is awesome, and it's just that having to write within the confines of horrible licenses after Torment has resulted in not-very-amazing-games. If so, though, that's just all the more argument for people like him to strive to work on unconventional stuff.

http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=55

Chris Avellone: As far as Torment goes, I was lead designer (and doing work on Fallout 2 at the same time, which contributed to my near-constant level of exhaustion). As lead designer, I laid out the story, characters, dialogues, area layouts, item descriptions and design, scripting, concept art sketches for locations and items, voice casting, script reading, and contributed design and feedback to almost all of the design for the game.
...
I wrote a first draft and character briefs of most of the characters in the game (I’d say 75%, a sample of one of these dialogue briefs is attached - Ravel_First_Draft.doc), and then designers for individual areas would script and revise them, taking them to something along the lines of Ravel_Final.doc. Probably a poor example, since I wrote Ravel from start to the finished template, but it should give you a sense of scope, and taking it from first draft to final copy was no small task.

I probably did the most writing, but Colin, Warner, Maldonado, Bokkes, Jason Suinn, Deiley, and others all made original characters as well as revising the suggested ones. Suinn, for example, did a lot of the core work for the Alley of Dangerous Angles and a number of original characters (and item descriptions), and Warner and Colin hammered away at Curst. In general, each designer took a portion of the game and fleshed it out.

* * *

Colin McComb: My name is Colin McComb. I’ve been writing professionally in one sense or another since 1991. I started out as a designer at TSR, Inc, writing Dungeons & Dragons supplements and creating campaign settings like Birthright and being heavily involved in other campaign settings like Planescape, which is how I went to Interplay in the first place. I was originally hired there as the lead designer on a Playstation Planescape title, similar to King's Field, but when that title was canceled, they shuffled me off to some Planescape PC title called "Last Rites". Chris Avellone was the only designer on it before then, so I tell everyone now that I was the “second designer”, as if that were some official title or indicator of quality… and hey, I got on the promo poster, so that was a bonus.
...
Avellone had at least a broad outline of the entire game from start to finish, with all of the major characters sketched out, by the time I’d joined the team. The rest of the design team added minor characters, stuff not exactly crucial to the main quest, and other fun stuff, and fleshed out the stuff he couldn’t get to. Avellone is a madman, I’ll tell you that – it was only with the greatest regret that he passed off Fhjull and Trias to me, and I heard him weeping bitter and solitary tears in his office when he assigned the Brothel to Dave Maldonado.
...
I hate to say it again, but Chris did the major work on the game. I would estimate that although he had seven designers on his team, he did about 50% of the work on the project. Keep in mind that he did all this while he was working on Fallout 2 as well. The man is truly prolific.

For the major character dialogues, I based my work on the original dialogues that Chris had created – some of them were just snippets, but they all held the germs of fascinating ideas - because I felt that the game would be better served to move forward with his vision as the signpost. If I misremember anything I’m about to list, I plead the passage of years and the indulgence of my coworkers.

The areas I did included Smoldering Corpse bar and its attendant quests and dialogues, Many-As-One and the Warrens of Thought, the Great Foundry, some of the Lower Ward (John Deiley did most of the other parts), Lothar and the Bones of the Night (though I don’t remember if I did Mantuok), Many-As-One, Curst, Under Curst (and certain dialogue nodes with Vhailor), Carceri. Trias the Betrayer, and Fhjull Forked-Tongue. I helped smooth out certain kinks in the flow of the game, and suggested some of the chaos that might ensue when Curst shifted into Carceri and helped design the mechanic that would allow the player to return the city to the Outlands. I think I did some other stuff too.

I should mention that Curst-in-Carceri would not have been nearly as fun without the aid of Scott Warner and Adam Heine, both of whom helped turn a fairly stale location into the awesome run of chaos and super-scripted events that it became. Scott’s a lead at Pandemic Studios now, and based on his performance on Torment, he definitely deserves to be.

I would also add that Dave Maldonado deserves a huge portion of credit for the Clerk’s Ward. He did a fantastic job and was fearless in exploring the possibilities. Scott Warner, Jason Suinn, and John Deiley did a hell of a job on creature design, item design and placement, stores, and all the thankless stuff that people don’t tend to notice when it’s done well, but definitely notice if it’s not. So I hereby would like to make sure they are thanked, and that very loudly, in public.

Chris was almost entirely responsible for the dialogues between the Nameless One and the party NPCs. We could add a few nodes of dialogue here and there, but Chris did almost everything with those characters.

 

[OSK]

I just want to know if this damn game will be turn-based or not.

Also, it just struck me. The Codex Holy Trilogy is Fallout, Planescape: Torment and Arcanum. Fargo is making Wasteland 2 (Fallout) and Torment (Planescape) so obviously the third game must be an Arcanum sequel, spiritual or otherwise! Yay!

 

[Zeriel]

absurd beliefs (i.e gameplay > writing)

It's worth mentioning that I actually am a huge gameplay > everything kind of guy for other types of games, but when it comes to Obsidian/Black Isle sorts of games, all they have going for themselves is writing, so that kind of comment from a guy who strictly does writing... uhhhhhhh.

Vault Dweller

Fair enough, that basically clinches it. So he's just guilty (like every modern developer) of saying stupid shit in interviews to fit in, I suppose.

 

[Jaesun]

Damn. Colin did a lot of work on the areas of PST I really liked.

 

[almondblight]

No, I didn't like it because it didn't fit and Avellone himself admitted that it didn't fit, but in terms of role-playing it was one of the best areas.

I remember there being some OK checks and choices, but working for all 4 rival families at the same time without the others getting pissed was stupid.

 

[Zed]

I just want to know if this damn game will be turn-based or not.

Also, it just struck me. The Codex Holy Trilogy is Fallout, Planescape: Torment and Arcanum. Fargo is making Wasteland 2 (Fallout) and Torment (Planescape) so obviously the third game must be an Arcanum sequel, spiritual or otherwise! Yay!

Don't you mean Bethesda is making Fallout 4????
???
??
?

:TROLFAEC:

 

[Koschey]

Damn. Colin did a lot of work on the areas of PST I really liked.

Agreed. Those are some mighty fine references in that interview.

 

[Zeriel]

Damn. Colin did a lot of work on the areas of PST I really liked.

Yeah, I was thinking that quote basically laid out that Colin worked on the parts of the game that were most thematically Planescape (which makes sense from an organizational perspective, you're going to want to assign people to areas where they gel). I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for saying this, but I honestly enjoyed the Planescape aspect of the game more than the Torment aspect.

 

[FeelTheRads]

but I honestly enjoyed the Planescape aspect of the game more than the Torment aspect.

Yeah, me too. Which is why I think the setting made the game more than Avellone did. And it's surprising to me that not many think this way and just idealize one man.

 

[Jasede]

I like it. Our MCA worship is silly and fun.