Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[Lilura]

Oh, and Minsc stinks. He misses every save, ever, without fail, and his AC is terrible.

The game doesn't throw enough rare equipment to make every party member an AC lord, but if you want Minsc upfront and tanking you could gear him up like this:

Base AC 10
Dex bonus 6 (18 dex with dex gauntlets)
Balduran armor -5
Balduran helm -6
Gaxx ring -7
Earth ring -8
Sewer cloak -9

In SoA I tend to give him Lilarcor (two-hander) because a crazed talking sword seems custom-made for him, but if you want to max his tank potential you'll need to equip a shield (Harmony is enchanted with many immunities and takes his AC down to -12) and have him wield Mace of Disruption +2 for level drain immunity, his racial enemy is afterall vamps.

That kinda AC is easily enough for SoA.

Note that multi-classers like Jaheira (and later Aerie) are way better tanks than Minsc because of their damage mitigating buffs. But I still take him in good-aligned parties simply because of his funny banters and many interjections.

I find I'm rarely ever able to confuse or charm my opponents in such a fashion.

From memory basic Charm gives the enemy a bonus to the saving throw so try Dire Charm instead, and you can also inflict a huge -10 save penalty on the enemy with Doom + Blindness + Greater Malison.

He is a bounty hunter, right? He gets special traps and trap bonuses, right?

I haven't taken Yoshimo in a party for years, what's his Set Snares skill at? You can buy the Mercykiller ring in Ribald's store for +20% snares. Keep in mind you can't set in LoS of the enemy.

I haven't really tried backstabbing much either, and I've never pulled it off when I have tried.

Yoshimo has sad thief THAC0 but he should still be landing most of his backstabs, plus coming out of stealth backstabbers get +4 to-hit bonus. Give him a strength girdle and preferably have him wield Celestial Fury katana for even better THAC0 and more damage.

Backstab damage multiplies the weapon roll (1d10 for katana), enchantment, proficiency and style bonus, any class bonus, and any damage bonus from spell buffs. But not strength bonus.

 

[hiver]

Lilura

Oh cmmon, let the man discover something on his own. Dont spill the beans, give him hints instead.
Whats the point of him playing the game if he plays it the way someone else tells him to?

Wheres he going to get all that fancy gear anyway? he doesnt even know those exist.

gaxx ring, like yeah, hes going to get that one easy..

 

[Lilura]

Mmm... I'm not trying to tell him how to play, sorry if it comes across like that.

I sort of forgot how hard it is to find some of those things, I have the whole game mapped out in my mind. But I did find all of those things on my first playthrough of the game, excluding Gaxx. I just wanted to give an example of how low he could get Minsc's AC, if he wanted to (it isn't optimal, anyway).

But I agree with what you say, in my next posts I'll try not to be so explicit.

 

[TheRabbitsGeorge]

Man, I am trying to play through BG1 and BG2 for the first time, and while I got through BG1, pretty much having fun the whole time, I am just bored with BG2. I did the circus quest with Quayle and Aerie and then freed the slaves from the copper coronet but I honestly was more enthralled by BG1. I just liked the sense of exploration and openness in the world. I know I basically just started but I'm finding it a chore to play.

I'm playing with SCSII, and I will say in BG2's defense that escaping from Irenicus Dungeon without the ability to rest (due to Duergars) was the most fun I've had with the series so far (which is weird considering many loathe this game's intro dungeon, but with SCSII it really caused me to be creative with tactics since i couldn't replenish my spells), but after that...this game is just not gripping me at all. I think it's because I much prefer exploring lots of smaller/midsize locales (a la BG1), rather than exploring big cities/hubs (The city of Baldur's Gate was actually my least favorite part of BG1, well...that and the Isle of Balduran). I just hate the cities in the BG series because I always feel like I'm going to miss doors for houses or important NPCs. Feels like a needle in a haystack. Compared to a game like Fallout, which made the buildings easy to explore by having them part of the main town map, just without roofs.

Am I weird?

 

[jewboy]

That's funny. I've never been able to get into BG1, but I thought BG2 was incredible. There are lots of interesting quests you could do. Lord Firkraag is one of the more interesting early ones. You meet him at the copper coronet. Also going down into the sewers in the temple district and checking out one of the buildings there won't leave you bored. It's even pretty interesting just to keep casting spells in the city until they start sending mages after you. Great fun. Wandering into the thieves guild in the docks district also leads to lots of fun times. What a great game BG2 was. It really was pretty close to perfect. Such a great game could be made just from reusing the engine, writing a decent story for it (the original story was a cliched piece of shit) and switching to turn based combat.

 

[hiver]

Mmm... I'm not trying to tell him how to play, sorry if it comes across like that.

Its not that you want to, but thats how it comes out in the end. Because he will think "oh, thats the way to do it!" and then he wont play his own game.
Nor will he get the sense of "Aha! look what i have found!"
You should either remove most of those too specific suggestions or put it into spoilers.

TheRabbitsGeorge

nah, you will learn to like it.
Youll see. There is much more interesting small locations in BG2.

 

[Sodafish]

In terms of oblique hints though: Sunsetspawn, you should keep one rogue stone in your inventory during your travels in Athkatla. It can lead to a very interesting encounter.

 

[DraQ]

BG1 (...) exploration

Does not compute.

 

[agentorange]

BG1 (...) exploration

Does not compute.

There were a bunch of quests and events to be found just by wandering around the wilderness areas in BG1; unlike BG2 where you simply collect all the quests in Amn and are then pointed to various locations on the map to fulfill the quests.

 

[DraQ]

Again, moving to the nearest blacked out portion of the map, sweeping your mouse furiously all over the screen in hope of revealing hidden stashes (with items of power) masquerading as pinecone #456 looking completely identical to its non-interactive brother pinecone #455, as well as its equally non-interactive twice removed cousin pinecone #587, repeating until map has no reachable blacked out portions, then proceeding to the next map is not exploration.

I don't know *WHAT* exactly it is, but people have been hanged for far lesser offenses.

 

[agentorange]

Then what is exploration? Wandering about aimlessly, to see the scenery and feel immersed? In the end isn't all exploration just about filling the blank parts of the map.

 

[TheRabbitsGeorge]

Again, moving to the nearest blacked out portion of the map, sweeping your mouse furiously all over the screen in hope of revealing hidden stashes (with items of power) masquerading as pinecone #456 looking completely identical to its non-interactive brother pinecone #455, as well as its equally non-interactive twice removed cousin pinecone #587, repeating until map has no reachable blacked out portions, then proceeding to the next map is not exploration.

I don't know *WHAT* exactly it is, but people have been hanged for far lesser offenses.

I don't know what to tell you my good fellow, I felt like I was exploring the game. Whether it was exploring the levels of Durlag's Tower or happening upon the crazy wizard and his Basiliisks or rescuing Viconia from her pursuer or meeting that fat spider bitch who name drops Irenicus...I always felt like there was something to find on every map. It was fun for me. I don't really know what "exploring" is if it's not just uncovering the fog of war and finding cool shit. Most likely we just have a difference of opinion on what constitutes "cool shit".

 

[Surf Solar]

Then what is exploration? Wandering about aimlessly, to see the scenery and feel immersed? In the end isn't all exploration just about filling the blank parts of the map.

He is a rabid 3d FPS exploration kind of guy, I wouldn't even start to argue with that

 

[DraQ]

Then what is exploration? Wandering about aimlessly, to see the scenery and feel immersed? In the end isn't all exploration just about filling the blank parts of the map.

Exploration is when mindless exhaustive search is no longer practical and strategy for effective (in terms of finding stuff) non-exhaustive search is non-trivial.


That requires very large maps (so that location-by-location search is no longer doable), maps without knowable bounds or maps with non-trivial traversability graph (for which pretty much no overhead game with 2D terrain representation qualifies - note that I mean representation within engine not graphics itself).
It also requires worthwhile search strategy to be inferrable from game's logic, environmental clues and so on.

In humanspeek:

The area must be too large to just comb through, extend unpredictably in such way that you can't tell in advance if you're seeing the border of play area or just an obstacle to cross, or feature some factors that make finding your way more than just an issue of finding a continuous chain of traversable tiles between you and destination - gravity is usual and most obvious example.
Worthwhile stuff may be hidden, but not hidden too well - there must be some obtainable clues that can guide you to interesting stuff if you're smart enough.


How does BG hold against those criteria?

BG has relatively small maps that can be combed throughly (fail), it has nicely bounded rectangular maps and checking whether obstacle is traversible involves just mouseover as there are no actions affecting traversibility of terrain compared to just walking (fail), and navigation involves unrestricted movement on 2D plane with exclusion of forbidden islands representing terrain that isn't passable, which means that if you can't travel through some point from an adjacent point, then it's simply impassable, there is no other point on the map, or set of actions that would allow you to travel through that point (fail).

So it's game over for BG1, but let's see if it at least does the hiding right. Oops. It does not.
Hotspots and their non-interactive lookalikes are mixed indiscriminately, not just containers but hidden stashes as well, there is nothing that can make your search more efficient than mousing over every reachable pixel of the screen. Other than just finding online guide and making a beeline to stashes on your current map - it's not like you wont comb it thoroughly anyway and your mouse will thank you for spared abuse.

I don't know what to tell you my good fellow, I felt like I was exploring the game.

Well, and people on shrooms feel like they are talking with spirits and shit.
Your point?

 

[Rake]

So good exploration = realistic hiking simulator?
I think i'll pass.
If you make walking traversing the map a major part of the gameplay, you just make boring gameplay. Subjective of course, but i will take BG exploration (or even better BG2) any day.

 

[JarlFrank]

Thief has good exploration. Deus Ex has good exploration. Gothic games have good exploration. Tomb Raider also has good exploration, but a little bit less good.

Generally, exploration is better done in 3D environments with direct character control than in isometric games.

 

[DraQ]

Rake

Good exploration is when you, you know, explore.

In BG there are no items, information or otherwise interesting stuff that can be *found* in the maps by exercising your smarts and observational skills.

In, Morrowind (in addition to DX, many FPSes, even oldschool crawlers that didn't even have actual 2D engine, let alone 3D, but used 3D world representation) such stuff is omnipresent.

Good exploration is when observation skills and curiosity are rewarded rather than willingly subjecting yourself to tedium (like mousing over every pixel of entire map).
It's when you think "I wonder if you can actually get there and how?", find a way and then are pleasantly surprised by useful stuff hidden there for someone like you.

In BG you don't wonder, because the answers are always "yes you can" and "by walking" unless the cursor turns into "impassable" icon at the very start or it's an edge of a map, saving you the hassle of wondering about stuff.

Some exploration.

 

[Rake]

Rake

Good exploration is when you, you know, explore.

In BG there are no items, information or otherwise interesting stuff that can be *found* in the maps by exercising your smarts and observational skills.

In, Morrowind (in addition to DX, many FPSes, even oldschool crawlers that didn't even have actual 2D engine, let alone 3D, but used 3D world representation) such stuff is omnipresent.

Good exploration is when observation skills and curiosity are rewarded rather than willingly subjecting yourself to tedium (like mousing over every pixel of entire map).
It's when you think "I wonder if you can actually get there and how?", find a way and then are pleasantly surprised by useful stuff hidden there for someone like you.

In BG you don't wonder, because the answers are always "yes you can" and "by walking" unless the cursor turns into "impassable" icon at the very start or it's an edge of a map, saving you the hassle of wondering about stuff.

Some exploration.

That's why i said it was subjective. I never said that BG had good exploration. My point was that walking around aimlessly exploring is filler at best, boring filler at worst. I never found hiking the countryside interesting, no matter the game. I know some people like it by i never saw the appeal. That why i said i prefer 2D exploration. It don't waste so much of your time.
Having said that, BG1 empty wilderness areas were trash. BG2 was way better in that part.

 

[Lilura]

Good exploration is when observation skills and curiosity are rewarded rather than willingly subjecting yourself to tedium (like mousing over every pixel of entire map).

I don't think many people pixel-hunted each and every map of BG1, trying to find phat lewt. Most things that were lootable were visually represented as such (objects of interest to mouseover, like a pile of bodies, then a polygon highlights it to loot), there were only a few things that could be found by painstakingly going over the ground with a fine-toothed comb (a wand, gems, a suit of armor, a couple of rings).
BG1 does a decent job of encouraging exploration, most of the maps do offer rewards for venturing off the beaten track, many have caves and even whole dungeons to explore beneath. Some are also deadly (cave in Lighthouse map, filled with flesh golems and artifacts), which keeps things interesting.

I begin to wonder if you even played the game, your comment earlier about respawns was inaccurate too.

 

[JarlFrank]

Rake

Good exploration is when you, you know, explore.

In BG there are no items, information or otherwise interesting stuff that can be *found* in the maps by exercising your smarts and observational skills.

In, Morrowind (in addition to DX, many FPSes, even oldschool crawlers that didn't even have actual 2D engine, let alone 3D, but used 3D world representation) such stuff is omnipresent.

Good exploration is when observation skills and curiosity are rewarded rather than willingly subjecting yourself to tedium (like mousing over every pixel of entire map).
It's when you think "I wonder if you can actually get there and how?", find a way and then are pleasantly surprised by useful stuff hidden there for someone like you.

In BG you don't wonder, because the answers are always "yes you can" and "by walking" unless the cursor turns into "impassable" icon at the very start or it's an edge of a map, saving you the hassle of wondering about stuff.

Some exploration.

That's why i said it was subjective. I never said that BG had good exploration. My point was that walking around aimlessly exploring is filler at best, boring filler at worst. I never found hiking the countryside interesting, no matter the game. I know some people like it by i never saw the appeal. That why i said i prefer 2D exploration. It don't waste so much of your time.
Having said that, BG1 empty wilderness areas were trash. BG2 was way better in that part.

Exploration is not countryside hiking! Exploration is wondering whether you can enter the city of Khorinis in Gothic 2 without having to convince the gate guards that they should let you in, circling the walls and actually finding a back way in. What makes it even better is that Lares will be surprised when he sees you enter the city that way, and the paladin close to the gate will comment that he didn't see you go in. There is an obscure back way that's not easy to find, and when you find it NPCs actually acknowledge it - that's exploration!
Exploration is getting the objective to infiltrate an MJ12 facility in Deus Ex, then looking for alternate ways to get in rather than taking the heavily guarded front gate - be it a ventilation shaft, a sewer access or the rooftops. Exploration is checking out the other accessible buildings in Deus Ex' Paris Streets level rather than just going to the club you have to go to without checking anything else.
Exploration is playing a Thief Fan Mission with an optional objective that requires you to visit a different area away from the main objective and actually going there and doing it. Exploration is trying to get all the loot by checking out every room, by trying to find keys to locked rooms, by looking at seemingly inaccessible places and wanting to find out if you can get there - for example a balcony that isn't accessible by any doors, and then trying to climb up there by using a rope arrow.

That's exploration.

 

[Zed]

Exploration is not countryside hiking! Exploration is wondering whether you can enter the city of Khorinis in Gothic 2 without having to convince the gate guards that they should let you in, circling the walls and actually finding a back way in. What makes it even better is that Lares will be surprised when he sees you enter the city that way, and the paladin close to the gate will comment that he didn't see you go in. There is an obscure back way that's not easy to find, and when you find it NPCs actually acknowledge it - that's exploration!
Exploration is getting the objective to infiltrate an MJ12 facility in Deus Ex, then looking for alternate ways to get in rather than taking the heavily guarded front gate - be it a ventilation shaft, a sewer access or the rooftops. Exploration is checking out the other accessible buildings in Deus Ex' Paris Streets level rather than just going to the club you have to go to without checking anything else.
Exploration is playing a Thief Fan Mission with an optional objective that requires you to visit a different area away from the main objective and actually going there and doing it. Exploration is trying to get all the loot by checking out every room, by trying to find keys to locked rooms, by looking at seemingly inaccessible places and wanting to find out if you can get there - for example a balcony that isn't accessible by any doors, and then trying to climb up there by using a rope arrow.

That's exploration.

That sounds like achievement-hunting and problem-solving to me. Searching, analyzing, examining.

Exploration? Exploration is not a search for anything, because you don't know what you're searching for. Exploration is about finding whatever - because you don't know what you'll find. Killing the Fog of War in a strategy game. Running off into the woods in Gothic. Clicking wherever on the world map in Fallout or Arcanum.

You could be exploring as you're looking for a specific solution, yes -- but the exploration is an act in itself.

This is how I use exploration in games. I'm sure the definition of the word is much broader.

 

[Rake]

Exploration is not countryside hiking! Exploration is wondering whether you can enter the city of Khorinis in Gothic 2 without having to convince the gate guards that they should let you in, circling the walls and actually finding a back way in. What makes it even better is that Lares will be surprised when he sees you enter the city that way, and the paladin close to the gate will comment that he didn't see you go in. There is an obscure back way that's not easy to find, and when you find it NPCs actually acknowledge it - that's exploration!
Exploration is getting the objective to infiltrate an MJ12 facility in Deus Ex, then looking for alternate ways to get in rather than taking the heavily guarded front gate - be it a ventilation shaft, a sewer access or the rooftops. Exploration is checking out the other accessible buildings in Deus Ex' Paris Streets level rather than just going to the club you have to go to without checking anything else.
Exploration is playing a Thief Fan Mission with an optional objective that requires you to visit a different area away from the main objective and actually going there and doing it. Exploration is trying to get all the loot by checking out every room, by trying to find keys to locked rooms, by looking at seemingly inaccessible places and wanting to find out if you can get there - for example a balcony that isn't accessible by any doors, and then trying to climb up there by using a rope arrow.

That's exploration.

That sounds like achievement-hunting and problem-solving to me. Searching, analyzing, examining.

Exploration? Exploration is not a search for anything, because you don't know what you're searching for. Exploration is about finding whatever - because you don't know what you'll find. Killing the Fog of War in a strategy game. Running off into the woods in Gothic. Clicking wherever on the world map in Fallout or Arcanum.

You could be exploring as you're looking for a specific solution, yes -- but the exploration is an act in itself.

This is how I use exploration in games. I'm sure the definition of the word is much broader.

This.
JarlFrank What you say sounds interesting, but it's not what i think when i hear the word exploration. Look Zed's post above. My definition is closer to her's. Exploration cannot be searching a spesific solution to a problem. Exploration is searching just because, or because you haven't something better to do

 

[hiver]

My definition is closer to her's.

...ahem.. No, actually its both. You dont need to search for a specific thing to explore.
But it is a search for something.

It is a search to... discover.

 

[Sunsetspawn]

Lilura

Oh cmmon, let the man discover something on his own. Dont spill the beans, give him hints instead.

Don't worry dude, my eyes caught the gist and I looked away. I don't dig too much on spoilers, and I'm pretty good at dancing around them when I need to. My current plan is to find someone with better saves and dexterity and throw the strength gauntlets that I found in the sphere on them. Maybe that halfling broad, but she's all super-specialized in shortbows and I'm not sure down with that. I can't hang in this thread tonight. Too many replies to see, Too much work tomorrow. Must sleep.

 

[Rake]

Sorry Zed
Too much dialog with Roguey lately left me