Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[uaciaut]

you could debuff him, BUT he's not dead

Yes he is. You have to be literally handicapped to not be able to kill a mage before he can do anything harmful when his defenses are down (and inquisitor downs these instantly).

The mages you fight have no Contingency or Spell Trigger active? Were we playing the same game?

Also, SCS

In mid SoA stages and later on my party simply went through mages too fast for their stoneskin/protection from mw to kick in, they just die and the stoneskin animation shows up over their corpses. To be completely honest i don't have the debuff-buff interaction perfectly down even today and i've played BG2 a ton of times, most of the time i simply do breach for most non-ToB casters and i do pierce shield/pierce magic for high level casters while maybe adding a khelben's for tougher/boss casters. Though i still use keldorn or go inquisitor myself most of the time for commodity's sake.

 

[Sunsetspawn]

Ya'll niggas talkin' bout soloin and shit? Crazy talk.
I'm in the druid forest and I took a few nasty curb-stompings, I haven't been defeated yet, but I've come close. Had one with a group of spellcasting fuckos that had everybody within 15 HPs of their lives. As the fight was winding down I was still having a post-summoning mind-battle with an elemental that I didn't need. Then that elemental turned on me and I realized that I have no idea how to use the earth-elemental-charm-ring that I found. I thought I used it correctly but stupid Nalia just ran up and starting smacking that dirty traitor. Wasn't it supposed to be a spell?

This game reminds me why regenerating health sucks.
No really. I'm in this swampy forest and getting my ass kicked. Resting got me jumped by dirty thieves that made me take an arrow for that dopey Russian elf (lolwut). Then I had evil mushrooms coming in from the rear blocking off my exit. And if I try to run back to Athkatla I'll probably get ambushed by more trolls on my way out. Good times

Point is, my health doesn't magically regenerate after every fight, so there is a feeling of danger (which will later be counterbalanced by the feeling of relief when I get to a town's inn) that just doesn't exist whatsoever in modern games (RPG or otherwise).
I've become one of you whining, kvetching, cranky fucks. Science help me.

 

[Excidium]

Josh Sawyer says you're not having fun.

 

[Aeschylus]

Then that elemental turned on me and I realized that I have no idea how to use the earth-elemental-charm-ring that I found. I thought I used it correctly but stupid Nalia just ran up and starting smacking that dirty traitor. Wasn't it supposed to be a spell?

If I remember correctly, to use any item's magical ability you have to click on the little backpack icon on the bottom toolbar and items' usable abliities will show up.

 

[Western]

Install BGT. Start with BG1 and play through it all. BG2 is surperior but BG1 is great as well.

Name one fucking thing that's great about BG1 other than pretty backgrounds.

Combat? Story? Quests? Setting?

Good to see people in this thread espousing the virtues BG1...

The what now?

Durlag's Tower was the best thing in it, not sure if that could be considered great though.

 

[jewboy]

1. RTFM. Seriously. The manual is good and easy to read. Since you don't have one, download it.
2. Questions about BG2 gameplay are better asked at gamebanshee. Just searching their bg2 forum will answer lots of questions. Maybe too many.
3. You are playing one of the best cRPGs ever made. Enjoy it. That means stop fucking around and read the manual so you can fully enjoy the game.

Any summoned elemental can turn on you. That's what happened when you summoned the earth elemental.

 

[Roguey]

Josh Sawyer says you're not having fun.

That feeling of danger only exists because he's LARPing.

 

[Zeriel]

Aren't you thankful every Bioware/Obsidian D&D game after Baldur's Gate 2 let you rest pretty much anywhere without consequence?

 

[Roguey]

You can do the same thing in BG2, it just requires reloading. In fact I believe the consequence-free resting in later games is a result of a lot of players doing just that whenever they get a resting encounter.

The endgame of NWN2 and MotB had rest interruptions.

 

[Zeriel]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of developer responses to save-scumming. Dumbing down the game because some people can't help themselves and hit reload a bunch has to be one of the worst ideas ever. That's one of the things I respect Firaxis for, they go out of their way to make save-scumming not work (optionally in Civ, admittedly).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Install BGT. Start with BG1 and play through it all. BG2 is surperior but BG1 is great as well.

Name one fucking thing that's great about BG1 other than pretty backgrounds.

Combat? Story? Quests? Setting?

Good to see people in this thread espousing the virtues BG1...

The what now?

Durlag's Tower was the best thing in it, not sure if that could be considered great though.

It was a great expansion indeed, but I was talking about the main game. Kinda like when people bitch about NWN2 they don't include MotB there.

 

[hoverdog]

Install BGT. Start with BG1 and play through it all. BG2 is surperior but BG1 is great as well.

Name one fucking thing that's great about BG1 other than pretty backgrounds.

Combat? Story? Quests? Setting?

Good to see people in this thread espousing the virtues BG1...

The what now?

Durlag's Tower was the best thing in it, not sure if that could be considered great though.

It was a great expansion indeed, but I was talking about the main game. Kinda like when people bitch about NWN2 they don't include MotB there.

It is different, though. TotSC were integrated into the OC, and it was possible for you to tackle new content as soon as you got to Baldur's Gate (or maybe earlier? haven't played for some time). The game still "ended" with killing Sarevok. MotB took place after NWN2 main campaign, in a completely separate region. You didn't even have to play the OC to start Mask. Well, theoretically you could do the same with TotSC - a high level save was included - but the differences are obvious.

 

[Lilura]

It was a great expansion indeed, but I was talking about the main game.

Kinda funny that earlier in the thread when I said BG1 "had virtues", you replied "the what now?" And now you're saying the expansion is great, when the expansion is integrated into the base game and really only Durlag's tower could be considered great anyway because Werewolf Island and Ulgoth's Beard are pretty painfully average.
I guess you could charge base BG1 with being painfully average, but you haven't really given any reasons or putdown any positives that were given by others including myself.
IMO, base BG1 is only average when you compare it to Fallout or Arcanum. Against most other cRPGs that came after, its "quite good." And with the pop-a-mole fetish these days I'm thankful for it and the IE it spawned, even if they are only RtWP...

It is different, though. TotSC were integrated into the OC, and it was possible for you to tackle new content as soon as you got to Baldur's Gate (or maybe earlier? haven't played for some time).

You can access some of the new content (Ulgoth's, Durlag's) at level 1, within 10 mins of starting a game, without ever having gone into Baldur's Gate City. Werewolf Island requires you go into the city first, though.

 

[suejak]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of developer responses to save-scumming. Dumbing down the game because some people can't help themselves and hit reload a bunch has to be one of the worst ideas ever. That's one of the things I respect Firaxis for, they go out of their way to make save-scumming not work (optionally in Civ, admittedly).

Did you just say you're "not a fan of developer responses to save-scumming" and then applaud Firaxis for going out of their way to develop a response to savescumming?

Anyway, not-savescumming isn't LARPing even by this forum's fucked-up definition.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Josh Sawyer says you're not having fun.

That feeling of danger only exists because he's LARPing.

So what feeling of danger you get if you have both regenerating health and reloading? Oh, right, absolutely none at all, but you don't need to reload anymore. Sawyer FIXES!

 

[Zeriel]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of developer responses to save-scumming. Dumbing down the game because some people can't help themselves and hit reload a bunch has to be one of the worst ideas ever. That's one of the things I respect Firaxis for, they go out of their way to make save-scumming not work (optionally in Civ, admittedly).

Did you just say you're "not a fan of developer responses to save-scumming" and then applaud Firaxis for going out of their way to develop a response to savescumming?

Anyway, not-savescumming isn't LARPing even by this forum's fucked-up definition.

Sorry, I meant not a fan of developer's redesigning their games to be easier in response to save-scumming as a player practice. Should have been more clear.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of developer responses to save-scumming. Dumbing down the game because some people can't help themselves and hit reload a bunch has to be one of the worst ideas ever. That's one of the things I respect Firaxis for, they go out of their way to make save-scumming not work (optionally in Civ, admittedly).

The developers are to blame for that behavior because the game they made encourages it. The edge cases who impose handicaps on themselves in one game can just as well impose handicaps on themselves in another.

Anyway, not-savescumming isn't LARPing even by this forum's fucked-up definition.

When you rest every 1-3 fights you don't need to reload if you hit a random rest encounter because you'll be able to take care of it with no problem (though I imagine a lot of people do it anyway because they don't want to deal with it). The "danger" is self-imposed by placing an arbitrary limit on how often you'll allow yourself to rest.

So what feeling of danger you get if you have both regenerating health and reloading? Oh, right, absolutely none at all, but you don't need to reload anymore. Sawyer FIXES!

The danger comes from the difficulty of an individual encounter. One can have "regenerating" health in BG2 by resting after every fight but some fights will still be difficult even when approached from a party with full health and a full book of spells.

 

[Zeriel]

"Refusing to exploit reloads at the slighest provocation" doesn't strike me as "imposing a handicap", but obviously the developers agree with you, so I am wrong.

 

[Roguey]

I edited an elaboration in my post. Plus

He also pointed out that frequently, games offer gameplay "that really makes players do degenerate tactics... They're working around our dumb design" to get the results they want, such as repeatedly reloading to pass random checks.

Degenerate gameplay - when you reload to get the result you want from a RNG while doing nothing different to affect its outcome.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The danger comes from the difficulty of an individual encounter. One can have "regenerating" health in BG2 by resting after every fight but some fights will still be difficult even when approached from a party with full health and a full book of spells.

So why exactly does it need regenerating health then? However "dangerous" it might be with regenerating health you still have reloads. So, Sawyer fails once again, like only he can.

 

[Zeriel]

I edited an elaboration in my post. Plus

He also pointed out that frequently, games offer gameplay "that really makes players do degenerate tactics... They're working around our dumb design" to get the results they want, such as repeatedly reloading to pass random checks.

Degenerate gameplay - when you reload to get the result you want from a RNG while doing nothing different to affect its outcome.

I think that's a bit of a slippery slope to use as an argument, though obviously we disagree. What I mean is... if that's your stance, why not just threat all difficulty that way? Any encounter in the game is hard, so there are some people who start every game by looking up cheat codes/downloading a trainer, and enabling god-mode. So why not then just remove any challenge from the game as a baseline design goal? You may think I'm exaggerating massively here and being a douche, but it's worth mentioning that just about any modern game I play feels to me like it has cheat codes enabled by default.

 

[Roguey]

So why exactly does it need regenerating health then? However "dangerous" it might be with regenerating health you still have reloads. So, Sawyer fails once again, like only he can.

In the context of P:E, regaining your stamina at the end of every fight is the near-equivalent of resting except it's not a total rest. Your health and per-rest spells are still gone and need a campsite which is a restriction BG/BG2 did not have (But PS:T did oddly enough).

I think that's a bit of a slippery slope to use as an argument, though obviously we disagree. What I mean is... if that's your stance, why not just threat all difficulty that way? Any encounter in the game is hard, so there are some people who start every game by looking up cheat codes/downloading a trainer, and enabling god-mode. So why not then just remove any challenge from the game as a baseline design goal? You may think I'm exaggerating massively here and being a douche, but it's worth mentioning that just about any modern game I play feels to me like it has cheat codes enabled by default.

There shouldn't be a situation in a game where an outcome is decided by a single random check. Games need frustration. http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/411582357821218135

When it comes to mechanics, I believe we should design systems that work together to produce challenging gameplay content and a variety of tools players can use to overcome those challenges. If challenges can be easily circumvented by using one skeleton key tactic (whether it's reloading, a singularly overpowering item/ability, or something else), then the gameplay will get boring quickly.

I think gameplay is most enjoyable when there's a balance of frustration and triumph. Without frustration, triumph becomes cheap. Continuous frustration with minimal/infrequent triumph often feels like it isn't worth the effort. Every player has a different balance point for what they enjoy, but if the systems have easy "outs", it can make the challenges trivial.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Kinda funny that earlier in the thread when I said BG1 "had virtues", you replied "the what now?" And now you're saying the expansion is great, when the expansion is integrated into the base game and really only Durlag's tower could be considered great anyway because Werewolf Island and Ulgoth's Beard are pretty painfully average.

Integrated or not, it's an expansion. Had MotB continued the story of the main character, would it have made NWN2 a good game all of a sudden? The reason I separate main games from expansions is because the approach is vastly different. Main game's purpose is to appeal to the wide audience and be accessible, whereas in expansions developers are free to test new waters and try something different. Thus they should be evaluated separately. And yes, I agree that only Durlag's tower was good.

I guess you could charge base BG1 with being painfully average, but you haven't really given any reasons or putdown any positives that were given by others including myself.
IMO, base BG1 is only average when you compare it to Fallout or Arcanum. Against most other cRPGs that came after, its "quite good." And with the pop-a-mole fetish these days I'm thankful for it and the IE it spawned, even if they are only RtWP...

It did spawn a lot of good games, including BG2, but the original was as mediocre and generic as it gets. We don't need to compare it to Fallout, how about a game that was the primary inspiration - Darklands? Or Realms of Arkania? Compare BG to this: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2365.0.html

As for my reasons for not liking it:

pros:
- pretty backgrounds and creatures
- no, like really pretty backgrounds
- isometric

cons:
- generic "boy/girl comes of age and discovers that he/she is special" setup. Words can't describe how much I hate such drivel.
- primitive quests
- piss-easy combat lacking any depth (thankfully BG2 fixed that)
- dumbed down gameplay - action-adventure with adjustable stats

 

[Zeriel]

So if I understand you correctly, you're either J.E Sawyer, or just decided that he has the best understanding of design of anyone alive? (Not mocking here, just curious why you seem to use his words in lieu of your own beliefs for the most part.)

Anyway, that's a fairly reasonable statement, though I still find the surrender inherent in the idea kind of repugnant. It's basically: "Some players reload a lot, so let's design our entire game system around these people." I mostly agree with what he's saying there in terms of a combination of frustration and triumph, but personally I find every Obsidian game to have zero frustration and maximum triumph. Meanwhile a game like XCOM is to me more on the level with where most games should be, but apparently impossibly frustrating to the average player, so what are you going to do.

 

[Zeriel]

Vault Dweller

Didn't MOTB directly continue the story of the character from the main campaign? I thought that was the very beginning of the expansion, you awakening after being taken from the ruins of the Shadow Whatever's dungeon. Along with meeting left-over people from the campaign throughout your adventure. I'm assuming you mean thematically--obviously it kind of just diverges from the whole aesthetic and storyline of NWN2 OC pretty quickly, but I still think it's fair to call it a continuation.