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Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

SCO

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Repeated ice temple, forest maze, derp wizard in dragon's eye, annoying hp inflated everything (yes, it's my fault i played that Sawyer mode mea culpa, mea maxima culpa), wasted (interesting, but in the wrong game) villains, no meaningful world map (it's always forward, unless you are aspie enough to go sell stuff of course), things i forget.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Well, the theme is different, the tone is different, and combat is much harder, which fits the atmosphere well. BG was a walk in the park.

You're sort of exaggerating now. A blind, first run of BG1 base is pretty hard and unforgiving. Even if you min-max, your THAC0, AC and saves are high (a bad thing), and so the RNG wreaks havoc on you. Level 1 mages have 6hps max and fighters 14hps max. You also have very poor equipment, scale mail max for fighters and metal weapons that fall apart in your hands due to tainted iron. And there are three chances to be TPKayed or at least mostly decimated in the second and third maps alone: wandering ogre, waylaid by bandits, mage on the stairs.

ToSC assumes 89,000xp. Fighters have almost maxed out hit die, proficiencies and ApR. Arcane and divine casters have a spellbook full of options and can summon mobs of undead minions or beasts at will, thieves can backstab at x3 and can stealth anywhere and pick any lock or trap, you already have +2 weapons/armor and your fighter/mage can probably buff himself to -20 so he only gets hit on a crit.
At that stage the only difficult enemy is Shandalar and he's not mandatory or even designed as a target other than to be pick-pocketed for his OP spells.

The expansion just complements the base and adds in a great megadungeon. Might I add too, ToSC has been sold with BG1 since 1999, which I believe is the year it was released. When people say BG1, from my experience they almost always mean ToSC included.

You seem to have an odd hate-on for the base game, but each to their own. I think I'm done espousing its virtues.

You don't have any special powers and your inner awesomeness (or lack thereof) isn't the main theme of any of these games

And you hardly feel like one of the Bhaal's Chosen until a fairway into the Saga. Sarevok seems to be the special one in BG1, and you only realize you're special towards the end of SoA when you shift into Slayer form and get a glimpse at your pocket plane that carries into ToB, where you start to realize you're the most worthy Bhaalspawn to take the mantle.

I don't know. I thought the plot was idiotic. Complexity for the sake of impressing people, like the last 007 plot. Contaminated iron, really? From one mine? Why not contaminate bricks and then sit and watch the chaos as houses start falling apart, then start selling clean bricks and make a fortune?

Well, it wasn't about money to Sarevok, was it, who was manipulating most of this for big-picture ends. You sort of can't wage wars that invoke murderous gods with bricks and houses. Remember, it was a conspiracy to create an iron crisis so that the Iron Throne could be looked upon as being a key factor in the region's military "defence", it was part of a larger political manoeuvre to facilitate Sarevok's divine ascendency.

A large pool of recruits doesn't mean much when they have the depth of cardboard cutouts.

They're supposed to be one-dimensional, its tongue-in-cheek. Direct pop-culture quotes abound, which should have given you a hint. And a large pool means alot in a combat and adventuring sense. I didn't particularly like the long-winded banter and romances in BG2, in fact they annoyed me and got in road of adventuring. About to fight a lich, Anomen wants to cry on my shoulder, etc.
 

hoverdog

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IWD was great (arguably the best landscapes of all infinity engine games), IWD2... not so much.

PS:T > BG2 > IWD > BG1 > IWD2
 
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Repeated ice temple, forest maze, derp wizard in dragon's eye, annoying hp inflated everything (yes, it's my fault i played that Sawyer mode mea culpa, mea maxima culpa), wasted (interesting, but in the wrong game) villains, no meaningful world map (it's always forward, unless you are aspie enough to go sell stuff of course), things i forget.

Understandable problems for the most part, but I disagree that it makes IWD2 the worst.

Forest maze was an instance in which breaking out a notepad and jotting down notes on the area was actually a good idea. I liked it. While I agree that the villians are "wasted" on the game, it can hardly be considered a problem that the villians have *too much* depth. IWD's map was entirely unmeaningful as well, don't see how that can be called much of a problem in comparison.

As for what I liked about IWD2: Targos was a good introduction, and avoids the mistake of being too long or having too many fetch quests. Most of the chapters ended with very nice set piece battles, with the obstacle more often being a horde of enemies that you need to handle rather than simply spamming shit on the boss. The battle for the Holy Avenger was great, I'd argue the best of any unmodded (no tactics/SCS) IE game. 3e-like character system is simply far better than the silly overpoweredness of dual/multi class and especially the BG2 kits.
 

SCO

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I was not too hot about the puzzle area of Dragon's Eye too for some reason. I mean, it's a definitively unique - but not even Torment tried to stretch the infinity engine or the typical IE-game-expectations to do things it was not meant to do like that area.

I don't know, it was like someone coded a survival horror in a BG2 area, it mostly made me think of a designer going all 'HERE; BEHOLD MY WIZARDRY; A ADVENTURE PUZZLE DONE WITH IE'

I liked the 'dead' evil party secret thou
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Forest maze was an instance in which breaking out a notepad and jotting down notes on the area was actually a good idea. I liked it.

Do you even need to do that, though? Or is it a case of just following the Will-o-wisp or I seem to recall a druid with survival skill...

As for what I liked about IWD2: Targos was a good introduction, and avoids the mistake of being too long or having too many fetch quests.

I don't agree with this, it took WAY too long to get out of Targos. IWD2 prologue = FedEx to the max. I can get out of Easthaven, Candlekeep, Mortuary and even Irenicus complex faster than Targos.
 
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Forest maze was an instance in which breaking out a notepad and jotting down notes on the area was actually a good idea. I liked it.

Do you even need to do that, though? Or is it a case of just following the Will-o-wisp or I seem to recall a druid with survival skill...

IIRC following the wisp only worked for one part of the area (you had to revisit it as you got further and further into the forest throughout the quest line). The tracking skill definitely was an I-win button for the area. Which it should be.

As for what I liked about IWD2: Targos was a good introduction, and avoids the mistake of being too long or having too many fetch quests.

I don't agree with this, it took WAY too long to get out of Targos. IWD2 prologue = FedEx to the max. I can get out of Easthaven, Candlekeep, Mortuary and even Irenicus complex faster than Targos.

The required fetch quests were... 3 or so I think? It was 90% side quests, though they all nicely related to the goblin invasion plot point so it felt like they were worthwhile to do.

I was not too hot about the puzzle area of Dragon's Eye too for some reason. I mean, it's a definitively unique - but not even Torment tried to stretch the infinity engine or the typical IE-game-expectations to do things it was not meant to do like that area.

I don't know, it was like someone coded a survival horror in a BG2 area, it mostly made me think of a designer going all 'HERE; BEHOLD MY WIZARDRY; A ADVENTURE PUZZLE DONE WITH IE'

Even if it had been done well, I agree that it would have felt horribly out of place. The ending of IWD2 in general felt overly incoherent and rushed (reused areas everywhere lol).
 

Sodafish

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Ya'll niggas talkin' bout soloin and shit? Crazy talk.

It's not that hard with the right build, although obviously it necessitates powergaming. Still, it's quite lulzy if you've already completed the game a couple of times. I once soloed a F/M through BG2 and TOB, although I stopped before the end as it got ridiculous; my guy was something like level 50/46 and killed even dragons in seconds. The biggest danger is spells/effects which charm/maze/imprison you as it's instant game over.

...so there is a feeling of danger...

You may enjoy doing the Twisted Rune then :smug:
 

SCO

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The 'ultimate' challenge is a F/M/C solo team ('ultimate' because you're fucking screwed on spell level penalties, including the all important dispel, and have no backstab). On the other hand, you do get summons, so maybe a F/M/T is worse.

Granted; this is not very fun
 

Sodafish

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What spell penalties? I can't remember anything explicit of that nature for M/C combination, unless you just mean the XP dilution between classes.
 

SCO

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Yes... i was thinking of many (3 or 4) tri-classes in a party. I think i did that once. Never again, you're constantly underleveled, and can't dispel shit.
 
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Lilura

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I once soloed a F/M through BG2 and TOB, although I stopped before the end as it got ridiculous; my guy was something like level 50/46 and killed even dragons in seconds.

Funny how when you remove the XPcap things get ridiculous, isn't it? :roll:

But you're right, solo runs are ridiculous anyway even without cheating. You're getting x6 XP so your saves, THAC0 and spell progression are through the roof. You also get your first HLAs around the time of Spellhold which is like 50% into SoA, so the second half is cakewalked even moreso.

The required fetch quests were... 3 or so I think? It was 90% side quests, though they all nicely related to the goblin invasion plot point so it felt like they were worthwhile to do.

The Severed Hand in IWD2 surprised me with how interesting the dialogue and quests were. It was very modular, like an evolution on original IWD Dorn's Deep. Those two (greater) areas I consider top-tier IE design.
I personally think IWD2 is majorly underrated, I've racked up almost as many replays as I have of BG2.
 

Sodafish

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I once soloed a F/M through BG2 and TOB, although I stopped before the end as it got ridiculous; my guy was something like level 50/46 and killed even dragons in seconds.

Funny how when you remove the XPcap things get ridiculous, isn't it? :roll:

Bah, soloing at all is so far removed from how the game was intended to be played you may as well turn the derp up to 11.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Nah, levels don't matter much anyway except I guess to newbs. BG2 can be run solo without any levelups.
 
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The 'ultimate' challenge is a F/M/C solo team ('ultimate' because you're fucking screwed on spell level penalties, including the all important dispel, and have no backstab). On the other hand, you do get summons, so maybe a F/M/T is worse.

Granted; this is not very fun

TBH, the leveling isn't that much slower than a 2-class multi. The problem is that there is just no reason to have a 3rd class, you simply can't use it. Why add that 1001th tool to your toolbox when you can only use one at a time? Other than abusing it for wielding certain equipment or HLAs I can't see a reason why tri class would even matter. You certainly would never need multiple tri classed charaters. An entire team of tri class would be... interesting. I mean sure, dispel is weak, but if your whole party casts dispel it's gotta work, right?

M/C is godly though. Why does the most powerful character in the game have to be fucking Aerie?
 

SCO

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No. It doesn't work. I think it automatically fails or some dumb shit like that. At least that was my experience, playing BG1 with SCS, running around like a headless chicken, waiting for the stoneskins to go down. Basically, you get a highly evolved team of magic missile launchers/buffers that in between do attack rounds. Micromanagement... but i was playing with pause on attack, sooo...
What really attracted me was being underleveled for more time (although in effect, it's forever, considering BG2).

You can absolutely devastate mages with backstabs x3 on initial attack, though i can't actually remember if the thieves are affected by true sight - cheating mages in SCS/(other random mod) were casting it constantly.

I'm actually planning to evolve the madness (derpness); i have a bit of a mod planned to bring thief abilities to every class - it's actually the easiest class to do this to since it's abilities can be triggered by hotkey, and it's the one that least interferes with most AI scripts.
 

Sodafish

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Aerie most powerful? Possibly if you don't have any other cleric in the party, but otherwise I would argue Edwin is better. 18 Int and insane numbers of spells make him a far better mage, and I would argue that mage skills are more indispensable in BG2 than cleric skills (restoration scrolls, healing potions and rods of resurrection take care of most essentials). The only real drawback for Edwin is the inability to cast True Sight.
 

SCO

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There is one or two derpy synergies of Mage/Cleric spells and contingencies in vanilla. I think it's harm+mel's meteors or some shit.

Not to mention how cleric's sanctuary you can actually steal some stuff better than thieves (without mods anyway) - thief stealth is interrupted by opening containers, sanctuary isn't.
 

Jick Magger

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Worst case scenario (and if you don't mind not having Keldorn) you can just get Viconia too. Best cleric in the game and there's more than enough room in the average party to accommodate a mage and a cleric.
 

Sodafish

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Better yet, take Korgan and Aerie in the same party and let him kill her :troll:
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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You can absolutely devastate mages with backstabs x3 on initial attack, though i can't actually remember if the thieves are affected by true sight - cheating mages in SCS/(other random mod) were casting it constantly.

Cloak of non-detection in Cloakwood forest. It won't protect against innate powers, but it does against divination spells. You can also find CoND in BG2. Seems most of the time you could backstab the spellcaster before they finished the incantation, though.
 

Sodafish

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For powerful mages, I always favoured a sequencer with 3x flame arrow/Melf's acid arrow before they can get their contingencies off.
 

Metatron

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The Severed Hand in IWD2 surprised me with how interesting the dialogue and quests were. It was very modular, like an evolution on original IWD Dorn's Deep. Those two (greater) areas I consider top-tier IE design.
Indeed, I actually thought this was one of the better, more fleshed out parts of the entire series. I liked how it had this "modest" quality for an endgame zone, like: the influence of those 2 half-demon overlords on the tower is pretty obvious but still people adapt to this situation and life simply goes on. I mean, most of the time the final hours of an rpg are spent gearing up for your majestic uberboss battle while things get increasingly epic storyline-wise (usually uncovering some grand scheme) and your surroundings more and more wartorn or outlandish. IWD2 is one of the few games that manages to avoid this kind of predictability and it should be lauded for that.
I do think IWD2 drags somewhat in the middle though. The whole underdark part felt disjointed and generic.
 
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Aerie most powerful? Possibly if you don't have any other cleric in the party, but otherwise I would argue Edwin is better. 18 Int and insane numbers of spells make him a far better mage, and I would argue that mage skills are more indispensable in BG2 than cleric skills (restoration scrolls, healing potions and rods of resurrection take care of most essentials). The only real drawback for Edwin is the inability to cast True Sight.

IIRC doesn't INT have absolutely no effect in BG2 outside of spell memorization?

Clerics have other powerful spells. Summons, self-buffs, a few direct damage. Better equipment selection. Also, consider that the point of having a M/C is that you DON'T need to have another cleric in the party. If you like mages so much more would you rather have Viconia + Edwin or Aerie + Edwin? OK, that's a dumb question because no one likes Aerie. Would you rather have C + Edwin or C/M + Edwin?
 

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